7 Things All Women Need In A Relationship (Jordan Gray)

[Quix]

@Quix

Well, sure.  However, that certain benign manipulation women are able to exert over men has nothing to do with mental or emotional issues.

Wellllllllllll, I've readily acknowledge that many women influence their men out of a benign motivation toward reasonable, admirable romantic goals routinely. I did that early in this exchange.

You seem to have an extremely hard time acknowledging that there are a LOT of women (and men, for that matter) out there who wholesale destructively, coercively, control-freakishly manipulate the person they are with out of horrendous attachment disorder in an effort to more or less force the other person to vainly try and fill the gaping holes, insecurities, hurts and wounds from the first 6-8 years of their lives.

I don't understand your insistence in seeing only one half of the picture and trying to insist that's the total picture.

And, I don't know that any of us are 100% free of any maladaptive carp from our younger years. I've observed relatively few high quality parents in my 70 years. Again, it's all relative and on a continuum.

I don't understand your seeming compulsion to cast it as all black or white and then say that only the white side is reality.

[Quix]

@Quix

I'm beginning to think we should administer psychological testing before anyone comes into contact with a desirable member of the opposite sex. It's dangerous out there.

I've long been convinced that anyone seeking a marriage relationship who does NOT fairly thoroughly check out their prospective partner's relationship with their father--is ignorant, uninformed or cluelessly stupid.

I had a discussion with a great clinician colleague at the college. I asked him what percentage of the general population he thought had serious degrees of attachment disorder. He replied with the professional standard 20%.

I said I thought it was much higher--80% or more. Then we discussed our definitions of RAD. I said, I believed that anyone who had chronic, conflicted, troubled, aborted relationships in the home and at work must have significant, serious degrees of RAD. He agreed. Then he agreed with my 80% or more amount of RAD in the general population.

I just know that on 2 continents it's been at least that high as evidenced by my students. My class sizes have ranged from 25 to 75. I have observed more than 3,000 students. I can't think of a SINGLE CLASS where there was MORE than 1-3 students who demonstrated MINIMAL RAD.

And those classes would have likely been only 15-25% or so of all the classes. In ALL the other classes, every student showed evidence of serious RAD.

Soooooo, the short of that is . . . there's a LOT of women (and men) out there with built-in compulsions to manipulate their partners out of deep insecurities and less than constructive goals.

[Silver Pines]

I think I already told you that I HAD seen such--more than once.

I didn't say it was terribly overwhelmingly common. But it's far from unheard of, in my experience, too.

I've been watching people closely since toddler-hood.

You are welcome to deny my experiences and observations, if you wish.

However, of the two of us, I suspect I'm more of an expert on my experiences, than you are.


@Quix

Okay, well, no need to get defensive.  I haven't seen it but I take you at your word that you have.

[Silver Pines]

@Quix

Wellllllllllll, I've readily acknowledge that many women influence their men out of a benign motivation toward reasonable, admirable romantic goals routinely. I did that early in this exchange.

You seem to have an extremely hard time acknowledging that there are a LOT of women (and men, for that matter) out there who wholesale destructively, coercively, control-freakishly manipulate the person they are with out of horrendous attachment disorder in an effort to more or less force the other person to vainly try and fill the gaping holes, insecurities, hurts and wounds from the first 6-8 years of their lives.

No, I don't.  In fact, if you look at my previous posts, you'll see that I've  pretty much acknowledged the existence of those types.  But you and I are talking about different situations, different circumstances.

I don't understand your insistence in seeing only one half of the picture and trying to insist that's the total picture.

I'm not.

And, I don't know that any of us are 100% free of any maladaptive carp from our younger years. I've observed relatively few high quality parents in my 70 years. Again, it's all relative and on a continuum.

I'd agree with that...I think dysfunction exists in just about all families, to some degree or another. 

I don't understand your seeming compulsion to cast it as all black or white and then say that only the white side is reality.

Lol, but I'm not.

[Silver Pines]

I've long been convinced that anyone seeking a marriage relationship who does NOT fairly thoroughly check out their prospective partner's relationship with their father--is ignorant, uninformed or cluelessly stupid.

I had a discussion with a great clinician colleague at the college. I asked him what percentage of the general population he thought had serious degrees of attachment disorder. He replied with the professional standard 20%.

I said I thought it was much higher--80% or more. Then we discussed our definitions of RAD. I said, I believed that anyone who had chronic, conflicted, troubled, aborted relationships in the home and at work must have significant, serious degrees of RAD. He agreed. Then he agreed with my 80% or more amount of RAD in the general population.

I just know that on 2 continents it's been at least that high as evidenced by my students. My class sizes have ranged from 25 to 75. I have observed more than 3,000 students. I can't think of a SINGLE CLASS where there was MORE than 1-3 students who demonstrated MINIMAL RAD.

And those classes would have likely been only 15-25% or so of all the classes. In ALL the other classes, every student showed evidence of serious RAD.

Soooooo, the short of that is . . . there's a LOT of women (and men) out there with built-in compulsions to manipulate their partners out of deep insecurities and less than constructive goals.

@Quix, well, I would disagree with the first sentence of your post.  Neither my husband nor I went into our relationship trying to ferret out psychological clues about our relationships with our parents, and I know, at least in my husband's case, that he isn't ignorant or cluelessly stupid or whatever.  Does anyone do that?

What we did do was get to know each other inside and out before we were married; we were together for two and a half years before we took our vows.  We recently celebrated our twentieth anniversary, and we're going strong, thank God.  So I would strongly advocate not jumping into marriage.

[mirraflake]

@mirraflake

Very good...you were observant.

I say this with great affection for men:  if the guy is interested, he'll fall like a domino.  But if he isn't, no amount of chasing after him is going to force his interest.  Women would save themselves a lot of anguish, IMO, if they could learn that lesson.

Never understood when men AND women   keep going after someone when clearly that person has zero interest. Have some self respect. Had a woman in college who was infatuated with me. She asked me out to her sorority dance, I went  but learned quick zero interest in her.  Not ugly but no  attraction towards her. She chased me for at least a year, would stop by and see me all the time, call  or ask me out.

I've asked women out and if they said no never asked them again and moved on.  I am a stubborn cuss.

I dated another women in college for 3 months  and she dumped me for a  better catch. She was in the same sorority as my brothers wife. My SIL sees her every so often at Alumni functions and she always ask about me, what I am doing. A few years back she told my SIL she regrets dumping me to this day. I felt good about that.


@CatherineofAragon
@Quix

[mirraflake]

I have. I don't know what percentage,  but I've seen it . . . both more or less constructively inviting a healthy relationship and seductively as the spider to the fly.

Never seen a woman bat her eyelashes at me.

@Quix

[mirraflake]

I've long been convinced that anyone seeking a marriage relationship who does NOT fairly thoroughly check out their prospective partner's relationship with their father--is ignorant, uninformed or cluelessly stupid.

I had a discussion with a great clinician colleague at the college. I asked him what percentage of the general population he thought had serious degrees of attachment disorder. He replied with the professional standard 20%.

I said I thought it was much higher--80% or more. Then we discussed our definitions of RAD. I said, I believed that anyone who had chronic, conflicted, troubled, aborted relationships in the home and at work must have significant, serious degrees of RAD. He agreed. Then he agreed with my 80% or more amount of RAD in the general population.

I just know that on 2 continents it's been at least that high as evidenced by my students. My class sizes have ranged from 25 to 75. I have observed more than 3,000 students. I can't think of a SINGLE CLASS where there was MORE than 1-3 students who demonstrated MINIMAL RAD.

And those classes would have likely been only 15-25% or so of all the classes. In ALL the other classes, every student showed evidence of serious RAD.

Soooooo, the short of that is . . . there's a LOT of women (and men) out there with built-in compulsions to manipulate their partners out of deep insecurities and less than constructive goals.

My wife is the 4th woman I seriously dated.   Never seen bad relationships with any of their parents or tried to be manipulated other than wanting to be married and wanting kids.  Never dated a dysfunctional women.  Guess I was lucky. I never moved past the dating stage with the first three because I was adamant no kids  and we moved on.  My wife also never wanted kids so we were a good fit.


@Quix

[Quix]

Okay, well, no need to get defensive.  I haven't seen it but I take you at your word that you have.

Didn't mean to get defensive . . . just trying to state my case for my perspective in strong terms. Sorry.

[Quix]

My wife is the 4th woman I seriously dated.   Never seen bad relationships with any of their parents or tried to be manipulated other than wanting to be married and wanting kids.  Never dated a dysfunctional women.  Guess I was lucky. I never moved past the dating stage with the first three because I was adamant no kids  and we moved on.  My wife also never wanted kids so we were a good fit.


@Quix

CONGRATS.

Works for me.

I was firm on that issue, too. Didn't want to visit my family craziness to another generation.

[Quix]

@Quix, well, I would disagree with the first sentence of your post.  Neither my husband nor I went into our relationship trying to ferret out psychological clues about our relationships with our parents, and I know, at least in my husband's case, that he isn't ignorant or cluelessly stupid or whatever.  Does anyone do that?

What we did do was get to know each other inside and out before we were married; we were together for two and a half years before we took our vows.  We recently celebrated our twentieth anniversary, and we're going strong, thank God.  So I would strongly advocate not jumping into marriage.

That paragraph was a bit hyperbolic. I just feel rather strongly about such issues. Maybe it shows. I was speaking rather generally vs all inclusively though I made it sound all inclusive. My error.

CERTAINLY there are OTHER ways to check out a potential mate . . . and there are some with horrible parenting who are gems of persons worthy and up to a lifelong commitment.

CERTAINLY I'd suggest doing as you did--getting to know one another inside and out, so to speak, rather thoroughly before a lifelong commitment.

I just know that as a GENERAL RULE, the issue of what quality of fathering an individual had bears a ton of predictive relevance to MOST future marriages.

[Quix]

Never seen a woman bat her eyelashes at me.

@Quix

I don't recall if I saw them bat their eyes AT ME, or not. I just know I've seen it. LOL. I don't recall if it was more in China or here.

[Quix]

Never understood when men AND women   keep going after someone when clearly that person has zero interest. Have some self respect. Had a woman in college who was infatuated with me. She asked me out to her sorority dance, I went  but learned quick zero interest in her.  Not ugly but no  attraction towards her. She chased me for at least a year, would stop by and see me all the time, call  or ask me out.

I've asked women out and if they said no never asked them again and moved on.  I am a stubborn cuss.

I dated another women in college for 3 months  and she dumped me for a  better catch. She was in the same sorority as my brothers wife. My SIL sees her every so often at Alumni functions and she always ask about me, what I am doing. A few years back she told my SIL she regrets dumping me to this day. I felt good about that.


@CatherineofAragon
@Quix

Attraction is a complex issue.

Usually it has some component that's related to an opposite sex parent  in terms of looks and/or personality--not across the board but one or more components--amazingly--even when the parents were not very good parents or persons.

In any case, who knows all the factors that go into a person's fantasies and expectations regarding a partner. When folks with a less than ideal background seize upon someone they think is attractive, they tend to load all their hopes and aspirations onto that person. That person is more or less seen as a knight in shining armor or some other variation of a savior carrying them off into a rainbow/Hallelujah Chorus future/sunset. And any hindrances to fulfilling that fantasy are ignored or considered the enemy.

It's not realistic or logical. But who said such things had much to do with reality or logic.

[Quix]

@Quix


No, I don't.  In fact, if you look at my previous posts, you'll see that I've  pretty much acknowledged the existence of those types.  But you and I are talking about different situations, different circumstances.


I'm not.



I'd agree with that...I think dysfunction exists in just about all families, to some degree or another. 



Lol, but I'm not.

OK. Thanks. Good to know, then.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

Well, flirting isn't necessarily meant to be an end-all and be-all in itself, though.  Many times, it's intended to lead to something more.

That depends on the intent of those involved. At its core, flirting is an invitation to 'notice me'. A guy can initiate it by doing so, or a woman by a look or action that gets attention.

In some situations, that's like fishing for compliments on her (or his) part, and in all honesty, it feels good to be noticed (playfully) by the opposite sex, even if you are attached. (The old 'still got it', without the complications of a deeper relationship).

One of the 'rotten' things we did in college was sit on the hill behind the student union in the spring with number cards. We called it the 'Out to Lunch Bunch Beauty Contest' and rated the young ladies in their spring finery. The lowest grades given were in the sevens, the highest depended on how many zeroes a guy could hold up after the one.

An observation: while a few were offended (or feigned offense), most perked up, stood a little taller, seemed a little brighter in their demeanor.

Everyone gets a boost from feeling attractive, and no more need come from the interaction than that. It usually leads to something more when someone is seriously (consciously or unconsciously) looking for more. Even that doesn't mean someone has to act on that, and it might just expose their dissatisfaction with the situation they are in. What they do about that is up to them, and if that situation does not involve a committed relationship, they can do something about it without hurting anyone. If it does involve a committed relationship, it might just expose what needs work, rather than be taken as an opportunity to cheat. It all depends on the people involved.

Most of it, from what I have seen, is lighthearted interaction without the intent of getting deeper, but then, I have never been one to 'get' hints, so maybe I missed something...

[Quix]

That depends on the intent of those involved. At its core, flirting is an invitation to 'notice me'. A guy can initiate it by doing so, or a woman by a look or action that gets attention.

In some situations, that's like fishing for compliments on her (or his) part, and in all honesty, it feels good to be noticed (playfully) by the opposite sex, even if you are attached. (The old 'still got it', without the complications of a deeper relationship).

One of the 'rotten' things we did in college was sit on the hill behind the student union in the spring with number cards. We called it the 'Out to Lunch Bunch Beauty Contest' and rated the young ladies in their spring finery. The lowest grades given were in the sevens, the highest depended on how many zeroes a guy could hold up after the one.

An observation: while a few were offended (or feigned offense), most perked up, stood a little taller, seemed a little brighter in their demeanor.

Everyone gets a boost from feeling attractive, and no more need come from the interaction than that. It usually leads to something more when someone is seriously (consciously or unconsciously) looking for more. Even that doesn't mean someone has to act on that, and it might just expose their dissatisfaction with the situation they are in. What they do about that is up to them, and if that situation does not involve a committed relationship, they can do something about it without hurting anyone. If it does involve a committed relationship, it might just expose what needs work, rather than be taken as an opportunity to cheat. It all depends on the people involved.

Most of it, from what I have seen, is lighthearted interaction without the intent of getting deeper, but then, I have never been one to 'get' hints, so maybe I missed something...

Great points.

Thanks.

[Smokin Joe]

Attraction is a complex issue.

Usually it has some component that's related to an opposite sex parent  in terms of looks and/or personality--not across the board but one or more components--amazingly--even when the parents were not very good parents or persons.

In any case, who knows all the factors that go into a person's fantasies and expectations regarding a partner. When folks with a less than ideal background seize upon someone they think is attractive, they tend to load all their hopes and aspirations onto that person. That person is more or less seen as a knight in shining armor or some other variation of a savior carrying them off into a rainbow/Hallelujah Chorus future/sunset. And any hindrances to fulfilling that fantasy are ignored or considered the enemy.

It's not realistic or logical. But who said such things had much to do with reality or logic.

I think we're dealing with something that goes right back to day one. For an infant, the love of the mother is essential to being nurtured. Getting the father to commit to that level of love for his children is something that for that little bundle of joy is not as guaranteed--there is no 'womb time' with daddy, and there isn't the intimacy of having been inside through development, so the infant has to gain that commitment of support, emotionally, from dad, by other means. Girl babies have a lot of the same actions seen in an adult flirting, only they are hardwired in. For all I know, male offspring do the same with their mothers (and other women), cementing that support vector in place, but 'earn' dad's support. Little girls manipulate it with a look, a cry, reaching out (literally, to be held), a smile (yes, even without teeth), but they succeed (or not) in winning dad's commitment to support them (love) by what my wife calls 'breaking dad's heart', gaining his sympathy and desire to nurture them if it is not already present.
Mothers are complicit in this, they will manipulate dads into situations where that bond will be cemented--after all, it increases their security with the 'provider' in what has been classical Western society if the father thinks of the kids, too.

Perhaps the failure of that father/child relationship to be cemented, whether for personal or cultural reasons contributes to problems later on. It certainly seems to be the case where that relationship isn't strong or well developed that individual and social problems arise, exacerbated by absent (could be gone from day one or just preoccupied) parent(s) or divorce.

One of the most damaging things of the economic and social shifts of the Carter years was the inflation that created a near need for two income families. When kids who once came home to mom after school start wearing the latchkey and get left on their own, trouble brews. Add to that the relative ease with which a marriage could be dissolved, and the kids certainly had all sorts of opportunities to suffer emotional damage.

[Silver Pines]

@mirraflake

Never understood when men AND women   keep going after someone when clearly that person has zero interest. Have some self respect. Had a woman in college who was infatuated with me. She asked me out to her sorority dance, I went  but learned quick zero interest in her.  Not ugly but no  attraction towards her. She chased me for at least a year, would stop by and see me all the time, call  or ask me out.

Yes, and that can be a huge turn-off, so the pursuer is having the opposite effect of the one she/he is after.

I've asked women out and if they said no never asked them again and moved on.  I am a stubborn cuss.

My husband was the same way.

I dated another women in college for 3 months  and she dumped me for a  better catch. She was in the same sorority as my brothers wife. My SIL sees her every so often at Alumni functions and she always ask about me, what I am doing. A few years back she told my SIL she regrets dumping me to this day. I felt good about that.

Lol

I have a similar story...sort of.  A guy I dated dumped me and married someone else.  A few years later, I ran into him and we chatted a little.  He started complaining about his wife, telling me he didn't think he made the right decision marrying her, etc.  Then he told me I looked really, really good.  Uh-huh.

I was acquainted with his wife to some degree, and I felt bad for her.  Going behind her back and giving me that line was a lousy thing to do.

[Silver Pines]

That paragraph was a bit hyperbolic. I just feel rather strongly about such issues. Maybe it shows. I was speaking rather generally vs all inclusively though I made it sound all inclusive. My error.

CERTAINLY there are OTHER ways to check out a potential mate . . . and there are some with horrible parenting who are gems of persons worthy and up to a lifelong commitment.

CERTAINLY I'd suggest doing as you did--getting to know one another inside and out, so to speak, rather thoroughly before a lifelong commitment.

I just know that as a GENERAL RULE, the issue of what quality of fathering an individual had bears a ton of predictive relevance to MOST future marriages.

@Quix

Well, my husband had a father who started out just fine.  Then the marriage broke up and he found another wife, complete with her own sons.  He adopted those boys as his own and cut off all contact with my husband and his siblings, as though they were somehow at fault.  Then my mother--in-law  remarried a man with a hot temper who used to throw tools at my ten year old future husband.  Verbal abuse was routine.

That man is the only father-in-law I've ever known.  He's a different person now, and he and his stepchildren have made peace and even have great affection for one another.  I love him very much myself, but he's still a strong-willed alpha type, and I don't take stuff off him when he tries to dish it out.  He likes to see if he can push buttons and irritate people.  If he can, you won't see peace.  If you stand up to him, he respects it, he laughs, and he's a lot of fun from there on out.

My husband says he had a pattern laid out for him of what not to do and what not to be.  He was determined not to let his childhood affect him that way. 

[Quix]

@Quix

Well, my husband had a father who started out just fine.  Then the marriage broke up and he found another wife, complete with her own sons.  He adopted those boys as his own and cut off all contact with my husband and his siblings, as though they were somehow at fault.  Then my mother--in-law  remarried a man with a hot temper who used to throw tools at my ten year old future husband.  Verbal abuse was routine.

That man is the only father-in-law I've ever known.  He's a different person now, and he and his stepchildren have made peace and even have great affection for one another.  I love him very much myself, but he's still a strong-willed alpha type, and I don't take stuff off him when he tries to dish it out.  He likes to see if he can push buttons and irritate people.  If he can, you won't see peace.  If you stand up to him, he respects it, he laughs, and he's a lot of fun from there on out.

My husband says he had a pattern laid out for him of what not to do and what not to be.  He was determined not to let his childhood affect him that way. 

WOW.

CONGRATS on hubby's resilience, and effective resolve . . . and turning out so well. Yea!

[Quix]

I think we're dealing with something that goes right back to day one. For an infant, the love of the mother is essential to being nurtured. Getting the father to commit to that level of love for his children is something that for that little bundle of joy is not as guaranteed--there is no 'womb time' with daddy, and there isn't the intimacy of having been inside through development, so the infant has to gain that commitment of support, emotionally, from dad, by other means. Girl babies have a lot of the same actions seen in an adult flirting, only they are hardwired in. For all I know, male offspring do the same with their mothers (and other women), cementing that support vector in place, but 'earn' dad's support. Little girls manipulate it with a look, a cry, reaching out (literally, to be held), a smile (yes, even without teeth), but they succeed (or not) in winning dad's commitment to support them (love) by what my wife calls 'breaking dad's heart', gaining his sympathy and desire to nurture them if it is not already present.
Mothers are complicit in this, they will manipulate dads into situations where that bond will be cemented--after all, it increases their security with the 'provider' in what has been classical Western society if the father thinks of the kids, too.

Perhaps the failure of that father/child relationship to be cemented, whether for personal or cultural reasons contributes to problems later on. It certainly seems to be the case where that relationship isn't strong or well developed that individual and social problems arise, exacerbated by absent (could be gone from day one or just preoccupied) parent(s) or divorce.

One of the most damaging things of the economic and social shifts of the Carter years was the inflation that created a near need for two income families. When kids who once came home to mom after school start wearing the latchkey and get left on their own, trouble brews. Add to that the relative ease with which a marriage could be dissolved, and the kids certainly had all sorts of opportunities to suffer emotional damage.

Great points.

I agree.

[Silver Pines]

WOW.

CONGRATS on hubby's resilience, and effective resolve . . . and turning out so well. Yea!

@Quix

Thank you, Quix.  He's just very grounded in reason...he watched and made observations.

[goodwithagun]

Women also need to know that it's our job to hold men to certain standards. That's missing in our culture today. I could never be on the current dating scene. It's all about hookups. There is truth in the saying about a man not buying a cow if she gives away free milk.

[Quix]

@Quix

Thank you, Quix.  He's just very grounded in reason...he watched and made observations.

Wonderful.

I assume he realizes he's one in 10,000 or so to be that sharp, wise and doggedly resilient in the face of such carp.