7 Things All Women Need In A Relationship (Jordan Gray)

[Silver Pines]

Mrs. Joe knows I don't do hints. It's like emotional charades to me, but I'm better at charades. All she has to do is tell me what's going on, and she'll talk about it when she's ready. Sometimes I have (what for me, anyway) is a flash of insight and pick up on things, but it isn't something to count on.

@Smokin Joe


It's pretty much the same with us.  I'll admit that sometimes the temptation is strong to exercise emotional blackmail and make him drag it out of me, lol.  In fact, there was just such an opportunity this past weekend.  But it's stupid and pointless, a silly game that he has done nothing to deserve.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe


It's pretty much the same with us.  I'll admit that sometimes the temptation is strong to exercise emotional blackmail and make him drag it out of me, lol.  In fact, there was just such an opportunity this past weekend.  But it's stupid and pointless, a silly game that he has done nothing to deserve.

It is counterproductive, and can be damaging to a marriage/relationship if a lot of it (emotional blackmail) goes on. (Besides, he might just say, "Well, call me when you are ready to talk, I'm going fishing...")

In fact, I have counseled a grandson to walk away from a girlfriend who is notorious for playing emotional blackmail games. Every family event she isn't in the middle of (including a funeral) she dropped a bomb on him on the phone. She's had him tied up in knots for the better part of a year.

[Silver Pines]

Consider, though, in traditional male=provider, protector, hunter cultures, women being able to read subtle cues (and manipulate men) led to success and progeny. Not being able to do so often led to failure. There have been untold generations reinforcing those traits in women, just as the traits in men (hunter, fighter, provider) have been reinforced the same way.
Rewriting human cultural history goes contrary to human nature, as it has been for millennia.
That isn't going to work well, and causes a serious disruption in the way humans interact because it goes against basic behavioural instinct.

@Smokin Joe

It's funny, because the husband and I were talking just last night about the ability of women to manipulate men---if the women are skillful.  That sounds so devious, but I willingly admit that we can be just that.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

It's funny, because the husband and I were talking just last night about the ability of women to manipulate men---if the women are skillful.  That sounds so devious, but I willingly admit that we can be just that.

Manipulation doesn't necessarily involve skill, only a relative shortage of women.
Where there are significantly more women than men, then the skill sets (and claws) come out.

[Silver Pines]

It is counterproductive, and can be damaging to a marriage/relationship if a lot of it (emotional blackmail) goes on. (Besides, he might just say, "Well, call me when you are ready to talk, I'm going fishing...")

In fact, I have counseled a grandson to walk away from a girlfriend who is notorious for playing emotional blackmail games. Every family event she isn't in the middle of (including a funeral) she dropped a bomb on him on the phone. She's had him tied up in knots for the better part of a year.

@Smokin Joe

That's right.  Women should never assume that their man will hang around like a puppy, begging for a clue indefinitely. 

I think your advice to your grandson is right on target.  That situation isn't likely to improve, IMO.  It will likely get worse.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe


I think your advice to your grandson is right on target.  That situation isn't likely to improve, IMO.  It will likely get worse.

It has continued to worsen and she jacks him around emotionally like a yo-yo. I told him he will never feel so much like a man as when he tells her "No, thanks" and just walks away from the whole situation.

[Victoria33]

@Quix

Please explain your definition of "Attachment Disorder" for those on this thread.  Thanks,
Victoria33

[Silver Pines]

It has continued to worsen and she jacks him around emotionally like a yo-yo. I told him he will never feel so much like a man as when he tells her "No, thanks" and just walks away from the whole situation.

@Smokin Joe

Exactly.  He doesn't need it.  Bottom line---if she really cared for him, she wouldn't treat him like that. 

[Gefn]

@Smokin Joe

That's right.  Women should never assume that their man will hang around like a puppy, begging for a clue indefinitely. 

I think your advice to your grandson is right on target.  That situation isn't likely to improve, IMO.  It will likely get worse.

I wish my apartment allowed puppies. Unconditional love, and daily exercise.

[Quix]

@Quix

Please explain your definition of "Attachment Disorder" for those on this thread.  Thanks,
Victoria33

Any one or more of the following the first 6-8 years of life will result in significant to very seriously devastating Attachment Disorder (often called Reactive Attachment Disorder or RAD):

BTW, serious RAD results in physiological brain DAMAGE to 2 areas of the brain: Those having to do with managing EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION and with managing RELATIONSHIPS.

On the part of either one or both parents, though, in my experience, it is the fathers that seem to insure the  worst and most devastating RAD  by:

1. being cold, distant, harsh, &/or absent
2. workaholic, alcoholic, drug abuser, &/or unhealthy-sex addict
3. physically, verbally, &/or emotionally abusive

4. uninvolved, not tuned-in to each child where the child is vs where the father wants them to be in order to bolster the father's ego and preferences

5. mean

6. Chronically angry

7. Perfectionistic

8. Arrogant, stubborn, rigid, brittle, &/or thin-skinned

Such parenting--particularly by fathers, imho--will result in a child who will have CHRONIC, PERSISTENT, USUALLY DEVASTATING problems with one or more of the following:

A. Self-respect, self-worth, self-esteem--feeling usually worthless

B. perfectionism--striving always to please someone--(usually a daddy stand-in)--failing constantly and feeling worse

C. Chronic anger, frustration, exasperation--with others, with self and/or with life

D. Contrarian, virtually always cross-ways with society, authority figures, anyone who becomes significant in their life--still fighting battles with daddy that daddy constantly set-up and never respected the child in. So, the child developed a pattern of DEMANDING compliance and/or respect--to WIN--in virtually all their relationships--else they'd see themselves and the world as hopeless yet again.

E. Wimping out--an opposite sort of 'adjustment' . . .  just chronically giving up--seeing any progress as hopeless and unattainable--not worth much or any effort any more.

F. Sabotaging their own health and progress because the pit they've always lived in is the only thing they know; the only thing that feels normal; the only thing they remotely know how to navigate at  all.

G. A perfectionist go-getter--great at business and surface relationships but not at home in their own skin and not able to connect or bond with much of anyone long term at an emotional, deeply committed permanent relationship.

H. Can be psychopathic, sociopathic

I. A constant gnawing issue, feeling and constellation of behaviors around the issue of feeling worthless to utterly worthless. Can be quite suicidal.

J. Gritchy, prickly, whiney, constantly finding fault with others--while actually feeling worse about themselves.

K. CONSEQUENTLY, OF COURSE, they will be UNABLE to maintain close, durable,  mutually satisfying, mutually respectful RELATIONSHIPS with much of anyone--particularly those closest to them. Expectations will be overly perfectionistic and small issues will be blown way out of proportion. Their 'relationships' will be more like the battleground in their early home life--though often worse.

etc.

The following 2 article are some of the best I know on the topic for short articles:

BONDING AND ATTACHMENT IN MALTREATED CHILDREN: How You Can Help

http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/bonding_help.htm

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. . .
What Can I Do To Help Maltreated Children?

Responsive adults, such as parents, teachers, and other caregivers make all the difference in the lives of maltreated children. This section suggests a few different ways to help.

Nurture these children. They need to be held, rocked, and cuddled. Be physical, caring, and loving to children with attachment problems. Be aware that for many of these children, touch in the past has been associated with pain, torture, or sexual abuse. In these cases, make sure you carefully monitor how they respond — be "attuned" to their responses to your nurturing and act accordingly. In many ways, you are providing replacement experiences that should have taken place during their infancy — but you are doing this when their brains are harder to modify and change. Therefore, they will need even more bonding experiences to help them to develop attachments.

Try to understand the behaviors before punishment or consequences. The more you can learn about attachment problems, bonding, normal development, and abnormal development, the more you will be able to develop useful behavioral and social interventions. Information about these problems can prevent you from misunderstanding the child's behaviors. When these children hoard food, for example, it should not be viewed as "stealing" but as a common and predictable result of being deprived of food during early childhood. A punitive approach to this problem (and many others) will not help the child mature. Instead, punishment may actually increase the child's sense of insecurity, distress, and need to hoard food. So many of these children's behaviors are confusing and disturbing to adults. You can get help from professionals if you find yourself struggling to create or implement a practical and useful approach to these problems.

Interact with these children based on emotional age. Abused and neglected children will often be emotionally and socially delayed. And whenever they are frustrated or fearful, they will regress. This means that, at any given moment, a ten-year old child may emotionally be a two-year old. Despite our wishes that they would "act their age" and our insistence to do so, they are not capable of that. These are the times that we must interact with them at their emotional level. If they are tearful, frustrated, or overwhelmed (emotionally age two), treat them as if they were that age. Use soothing non-verbal interactions. Hold them. Rock them. Sing quietly. This is not the time to use complex verbal arguments about the consequences of inappropriate behavior.

Be consistent, predictable and repetitive. Maltreated children with attachment problems are very sensitive to changes in schedule, transitions, surprises, chaotic social situations, and, in general, any new situation. Busy and unique social situations will overwhelm them, even if they are pleasant! Birthday parties, sleepovers, holidays, family trips, the start of the school year, and the end of the school year — all can be disorganizing for these children. Because of this, any efforts that can be made to be consistent, predictable, and repetitive will be very important in making maltreated children feel safe and secure. When they feel safe, they can benefit from the nurturing and enriching emotional and social experiences you provide them. If they are anxious and fearful, they cannot benefit from your nurturing in the same ways.

Model and teach appropriate social behaviors. Many abused and neglected children do not know how to interact with other people. One of the best ways to teach them is to model this in your own behaviors, and then narrate for the child what you are doing and why. Become a play-by-play announcer: "I am going to the sink to wash my hands before dinner because…" or "I take the soap and put it on my hands like this…." Children see, hear, and imitate.

In addition to modeling, you can "coach" maltreated children as they play with other children. Use a similar play-by-play approach: "Well, when you take that from someone, they probably feel pretty upset; so if you want them to have fun when you play this game, then you should try…" By more effectively playing with other children, they will develop some improved self-esteem and confidence. Over time, success with other children will make the child less socially awkward and aggressive. Maltreated children are often "a mess" because of their delayed socialization. If the child is teased because of their clothes or grooming, it would be helpful to have "cool" clothes and improved hygiene.

Maltreated children have problems with modulating appropriate physical contact. They don't know when to hug, how close to stand, when to establish or break eye contact, what are appropriate contexts to wipe their nose, touch their genitals, or do other grooming behaviors.
.
. . .

= = = =

http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/attachment.htm


ATTACHMENT: The First Core Strength

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. . .
The first and most important of all relationships are attachment bonds. Initially, these are created through interactions with our primary caregivers, usually parents. First relationships help define our capacity for attachment and set the tone for all of our future relationships.

What Is Attachment?

Attachment is the capacity to form and maintain healthy emotional relationships. An attachment bond has unique properties. The capacity to create these special relationships begins in early childhood.

Unique Features of an Attachment Bond

    Enduring form of a bond with a "special" person
    Involves soothing, comfort, and pleasure
    Loss or threat of loss of the special person evokes intense distress
    There is security and safety in context of this relationship

At birth, a baby is essentially emotionally "unattached." Despite the obvious physical connection of the umbilical cord, the newborn does not yet have strong connections to another human. During infancy and early childhood, one form of attachment-socio-emotional-begins to replace the original physical attachment of the cord. As dependent as ever, a baby requires constant attention and care from another human being in order to survive. Calories and a "bath" of physical sensations-sight, sounds, smells, touch, and taste-help the infant survive and grow to meet her potential. This "somatosensory" bath from a loving caregiver-the rocking, hugs, coos, and smiles-is transformed by the infant's sensory systems into patterned neuronal activity that influences the development of the brain in positive ways. It is in this dependent relationship between the primary caregivers and the infant that the new form of attachment grows. This attachment-the emotional relationship-is not as easy to see or document, yet it is nonetheless as important for human development as the umbilical cord is in utero.

It is these experiences of infancy and early childhood that create the roots of attachment-the capacity to form and maintain healthy emotional relationships. Except in the most extreme cases we are all born with the genetic capability to form and maintain healthy emotional relationships. When the infant has attentive, responsive, and loving caregiving, this genetic potential is expressed. And as this infant becomes a toddler and more people-family, friends, peers-enter his life, he will continue to develop this capacity to have healthy and strong emotional relationships.

Attachment and Pleasure

Our brain is designed to promote relationships. Specific parts of the human brain respond to emotional cues (such as facial expressions, touch, scent) and, more important, allow us to get pleasure from positive human interactions. The systems in the brain that mediate pleasure appear to be closely connected to the systems that mediate emotional relationships. Indeed this inter-relationship-the capacity to get pleasure from other people-creates a major positive learning tool of infancy and childhood. Young children want to please their teachers. They model adults and children they admire.
.
. . .

[Quix]

@Smokin Joe,

Well, it is sort of the old 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' thing. Where I am deductive, she is intuitive. That doesn't bother either of us, and it provides a check system. When we don't come to the same conclusion by different routes, then the subject is down for further study and discussion by both of us. It is phenomenal how often we come to the same conclusion.

Had I been better at picking up on those cues as a young single man, it is likely I would have taken advantage of that for nefarious ends. It is just as well I was not ordinarily attuned. Often a couple of days later I would realize "Oh, that's what she meant." and note a missed opportunity. While they were not all missed, perhaps it is just as well most were, it made my life much less complicated.

Consider, though, in traditional male=provider, protector, hunter cultures, women being able to read subtle cues (and manipulate men) led to success and progeny. Not being able to do so often led to failure. There have been untold generations reinforcing those traits in women, just as the traits in men (hunter, fighter, provider) have been reinforced the same way.
Rewriting human cultural history goes contrary to human nature, as it has been for millennia.
That isn't going to work well, and causes a serious disruption in the way humans interact because it goes against basic behavioural instinct.

When is influence merely influence and not manipulation?

I have gotten weary over the years of the whine about manipulation--though it IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM--chronic in sick relationships.

I don't think healthy motivated influence needs to be labeled manipulation. I can suggest, offer, explain, try and sell an idea, choice, action to the best of my ability and it still be healthy as long as I respect the other person's freedom and right to refuse to buy-into my construction on reality.

When influence becomes underhanded, relentless, ruthless, demanding etc. then I'd certainly call it manipulation and in need of being shut down fast . . . or ignored and walked away from.

I think it's wonderful the way healthy couples can typically come to the same choices and conclusions by different male/female routes.

Intuition is evidently particular sorts of brains (more feminine, it turns out) key-in on tiny subtle details in a given situation . . . and arrive at a holistic conclusion, description, analysis etc. almost seemingly by magic. Such brains simply take in tons of tiny bits of information and combine that evidence in a way that makes sense--the better ones seem to do it very quickly and very accurately.

Now, some of the conclusions some female brains jump to therefrom are NOT accurate and come more from their Attachment Disorder than wisdom--but that's another issue.

And, it sounds like neither of you have an overbearing compulsion to WIN in such discussions vs simply arrive at the best choice or conclusion. CONGRATS.

That is too rare in our era.

[Silver Pines]

Manipulation doesn't necessarily involve skill, only a relative shortage of women.
Where there are significantly more women than men, then the skill sets (and claws) come out.

@Smokin Joe

Oh, it involves skill, trust me---in varying degrees from the women who possess it.  The manipulation can be very subtle.

Dr. Laura used to say that men are easy, and she was right.  That's not a condescension, but an observation that men, God bless em, really don't want a lot of complicated things.  Women who are clued in to their desires and wants can really work it, if they want to.

[Silver Pines]

Just heard on the radio...women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.

 

[240B]

all I want in a woman



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EHA_pPgjws

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

Oh, it involves skill, trust me---in varying degrees from the women who possess it.  The manipulation can be very subtle.

Dr. Laura used to say that men are easy, and she was right.  That's not a condescension, but an observation that men, God bless em, really don't want a lot of complicated things.  Women who are clued in to their desires and wants can really work it, if they want to.

Yes, guys like it simple and straightforward.



Don't misunderstand, please. I'm not saying there aren't some incredibly skilled manipulators out there. There definitely are, and quite a few, who learned at their mother's knee who learned at her mother's knee, etc. and for the unsuspecting fellow, they're the ant lion trap of relationships. Pure emotional quicksand that looked like a cool drink of water, so the thirsty sucker dives in headfirst.

But when there are very few available women in ratio to the available men (think boom town, and I have been through a couple of oil booms where the ratio goes to three or more available guys to gals, not counting the married and on the road types who mess around) the only women who really need those skills are going after 'high value targets'--guys with looks, substantial money, or power (or all three).

That isn't saying games don't get played both ways, but for the most part, in that situation there is a lot of low hanging fruit for the ladies to pick from, little manipulation necessary unless they're after the same guy. In that environment, money is relatively plentiful, and budgets are not tight, so a wiggle and a smile might get an attractive gal a long ways.
It is when the boom busts and things go the other way economically that manipulation fails at the previous skill level, often resulting in frustration and sometimes the collapse of the relationship.
Manipulation, though, is commonly just a control device, and often a sign of insecurity. Most guys will be manipulated to a point, some more than others, some only as much as they want to be (quid pro quo, after all). The savvy ones just shake their head and walk away if they aren't in for the game.

[Quix]

Yes, guys like it simple and straightforward.

[snip]

That isn't saying games don't get played both ways, but for the most part, in that situation there is a lot of low hanging fruit for the ladies to pick from, little manipulation necessary unless they're after the same guy. In that environment, money is relatively plentiful, and budgets are not tight, so a wiggle and a smile might get an attractive gal a long ways.

It is when the boom busts and things go the other way economically that manipulation fails at the previous skill level, often resulting in frustration and sometimes the collapse of the relationship.

Manipulation, though, is commonly just a control device, and often a sign of insecurity. Most guys will be manipulated to a point, some more than others, some only as much as they want to be (quid pro quo, after all). The savvy ones just shake their head and walk away if they aren't in for the game.

Well put.

Insecurities drive a lot of control freak stuff . . . arising, of course, out of RAD.

[Quix]

I wish my apartment allowed puppies. Unconditional love, and daily exercise.

I wonder if you could volunteer to take trained dogs to old folks' homes and hospitals?

Hugs,

[Silver Pines]

Yes, guys like it simple and straightforward.



Don't misunderstand, please. I'm not saying there aren't some incredibly skilled manipulators out there. There definitely are, and quite a few, who learned at their mother's knee who learned at her mother's knee, etc. and for the unsuspecting fellow, they're the ant lion trap of relationships. Pure emotional quicksand that looked like a cool drink of water, so the thirsty sucker dives in headfirst.

But when there are very few available women in ratio to the available men (think boom town, and I have been through a couple of oil booms where the ratio goes to three or more available guys to gals, not counting the married and on the road types who mess around) the only women who really need those skills are going after 'high value targets'--guys with looks, substantial money, or power (or all three).

That isn't saying games don't get played both ways, but for the most part, in that situation there is a lot of low hanging fruit for the ladies to pick from, little manipulation necessary unless they're after the same guy. In that environment, money is relatively plentiful, and budgets are not tight, so a wiggle and a smile might get an attractive gal a long ways.
It is when the boom busts and things go the other way economically that manipulation fails at the previous skill level, often resulting in frustration and sometimes the collapse of the relationship.
Manipulation, though, is commonly just a control device, and often a sign of insecurity. Most guys will be manipulated to a point, some more than others, some only as much as they want to be (quid pro quo, after all). The savvy ones just shake their head and walk away if they aren't in for the game.

@Smokin Joe

I do see your points, and they're good ones.  Manipulation can be a sign of insecurity, and it's certainly a control device, but I'm talking about the kind of game that takes place when a woman has zeroed in on a man and decides she wants him to notice her...not anything that's malicious or negative in nature.  A lot of the time, the man won't even know it's happening.

My husband, his sister and her husband, and I have watched that very thing happening in a social gathering.   We females looked at each other and nodded..."Did you see that?"  The two men didn't see anything going on...it went right over their heads.

Maybe it goes all the way back to the Garden.

[Silver Pines]

Well put.

Insecurities drive a lot of control freak stuff . . . arising, of course, out of RAD.

@Quix

I was't describing "control freak stuff" based in mental illness. See my last post.

[Quix]

@Smokin Joe

I do see your points, and they're good ones.  Manipulation can be a sign of insecurity, and it's certainly a control device, but I'm talking about the kind of game that takes place when a woman has zeroed in on a man and decides she wants him to notice her...not anything that's malicious or negative in nature.  A lot of the time, the man won't even know it's happening.

My husband, his sister and her husband, and I have watched that very thing happening in a social gathering.   We females looked at each other and nodded..."Did you see that?"  The two men didn't see anything going on...it went right over their heads.

Maybe it goes all the way back to the Garden.

I don't know that one needs to split hairs about what is and is not a mental illness in terms of control freak manipulations.

Mental health is a continuum like many things.

It's only a matter of degree.

I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism. It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.

[andy58-in-nh]

Just heard on the radio...women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.

 

Real men understand how to express it as a loving compliment. 

[Silver Pines]

I don't know that one needs to split hairs about what is and is not a mental illness in terms of control freak manipulations.

Mental health is a continuum like many things.

It's only a matter of degree.

I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism. It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.

@Quix

Really?

A woman using her feminine wiles, so to speak, to attract a man is all of that?

Okay then.

[Quix]

@Quix

Really?

A woman using her feminine wiles, so to speak, to attract a man is all of that?

Okay then.

Let me try again . . .

Mental health is a continuum like many things.

It's only a matter of degree.

I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism.

Insecurities range in a continuum from barely any to a near totally consuming insecurity.

It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.

= = =

I think the same sort of behaviors COULD originate out of merely a healthy desire to connect OR an insecurity based control-freak manipulation.

It would depend on the attitude of the heart . . . the motives driving the behavior . . . and how much of it was a compulsion and how much of it was merely a desire to connect vs an insecurity based DRIVENNESS and DESPERATE NEED to connect.

I don't see where your labeling my assertions as all one end of the spectrum fits what I'm trying to say, much at all.

Perhaps the key issue in such situations would be whether the woman (or man, for that matter) was prone to or COULD or TENDED TO

make efforts to connect that were open-handed. i.e. Did they make their initiated behaviors attractive but not compulsory?

Did she bat her eyelashes alluringly but not DEMANDINGLY?

Did she let it be however it was whether he jumped with tongue hanging out to her attraction efforts or not . . . with her remaining pleasant and confident regardless of his responses?

Or, did she get huffy and punish him for not being a proper love-struck puppy dog groveling at her feet?

One would be a compulsive manipulation based on insecurities and one would not--though the behaviors were mostly the same--except for very subtle undercurrents accordingly.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

I do see your points, and they're good ones.  Manipulation can be a sign of insecurity, and it's certainly a control device, but I'm talking about the kind of game that takes place when a woman has zeroed in on a man and decides she wants him to notice her...not anything that's malicious or negative in nature.  A lot of the time, the man won't even know it's happening.

My husband, his sister and her husband, and I have watched that very thing happening in a social gathering.   We females looked at each other and nodded..."Did you see that?"  The two men didn't see anything going on...it went right over their heads.

Maybe it goes all the way back to the Garden.

It's funny, but as you get older, more is revealed to you. I have seen that 'flash', even in a baby who looked at a waiter, got red in the face and completely changed her demeanor, cooing and wanting to go to him (reaching out to be held). She couldn't talk yet, but she knew what she liked.

In older girls/women, I have seen ladies go 'on the hunt'. Some guys are oblivious to the idea, but if a woman decides she wants a particular man, she will zero in on him and from a (safe) distance, it is obvious to someone watching. The target is often oblivious.

And no, it isn't always malicious, sometimes it is just Le Sacre du printemps.

[Smokin Joe]

Mental health is a continuum like many things.

It's only a matter of degree.

Mental health is a little like global warming. First you have to figure out what the temperature should be. If you can't define "normal", you can't define abnormal, except for the really pointy ends of the bell curve.