Author Topic: Grand Canyon: Pennsylvania mother ate twigs, drank own urine on journey to save family, sister says - Fox News  (Read 2587 times)

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Offline TomSea

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Pennsylvania mother ate twigs, drank own urine on journey to save family, sister says

Kristen Haase, the sister of Karen Klein, of Palmer Township, detailed the daring attempt in an email to Philly.com. Haase said Karen Klein, her husband Eric and their 10-year-old son Isaac were driving from Bryce Canyon National Park in Utah to the Grand Canyon National Park’s north rim for a sightseeing adventure.

However, things began to turn south when the road became covered in snow. Haase said they turned around their rental car to go back when they got stuck in a ditch.

Haase said Karen Klein decided to trek back to the main road – about 10 miles away – to attempt to flag someone down or get cellphone reception. When Klein made it to the highway, it was closed down due to the snow storm. She spotted a sign for the entrance of a Grand Canyon park that said it was only 14 miles away, so she decided to move along.

Continued:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/27/pennsylvania-mother-ate-twigs-drank-own-urine-on-journey-to-save-family-sister-says.html

I'm not sure this was posted here. Also, she suffered from some frostbite, hopefully, she will recover from that.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 12:14:33 am by TomSea »

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Darn lucky she survived.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline TomSea

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Darn lucky she survived.

The whole family survived. We may not read all the details but she took off to save her family.

Offline TomSea

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I know it can get cold in the desert but still, this story surprises me some.

Offline Meldrew

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Wouldn't eating snow be preferable to drinking urine?


Offline Sanguine

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Wouldn't eating snow be preferable to drinking urine?

Takes too much heat to melt it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 02:36:45 pm by Sanguine »

Offline thackney

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I know it can get cold in the desert but still, this story surprises me some.

Driscoll said the main highway in the Canyon's north rim, State Route 67, was closed due to the snow in the area, which is about 8,000 feet above sea level.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Lehigh-Valley-woman-ate-twigs-drank-urine-to-survive.html
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 02:46:06 pm by thackney »
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Offline driftdiver

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Wouldn't eating snow be preferable to drinking urine?

@Meldrew

It would seem so but eating snow can easily speed up hypothermia since it requires body heat to melt the snow.  It can rapidly reduce  your core body temperature.
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Online roamer_1

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Darn lucky she survived.

Now see, Idaho, this here is a perfect example of why mountains are better than deserts...
In the mountains, there are mighty few occasions that would require drinking urine of any kind whatsoever.

Online roamer_1

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@Meldrew

It would seem so but eating snow can easily speed up hypothermia since it requires body heat to melt the snow.  It can rapidly reduce  your core body temperature.

Largely untrue. Take it a little at a time, keep it in your mouth until it's warm. A little bit, all the time will keep you hydrated... Canteens freeze in the winter. That's how you do it.

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I know it can get cold in the desert but still, this story surprises me some.
I have seen weather every bit as nasty as many winter days in North Dakota (subzero temps, near whiteout conditions w/ blowing snow) in Nevada--elevation makes the difference.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline driftdiver

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Largely untrue. Take it a little at a time, keep it in your mouth until it's warm. A little bit, all the time will keep you hydrated... Canteens freeze in the winter. That's how you do it.

@roamer_1

Sorry but you're wrong.  Unless of course you've discovered a way to generate heat without an energy source.    As any person who has every drank an icy drink can attest, they cool you down.  For a healthy person with enough to eat this loss of heat may be a good thing or at least may be small enough for your body to handle.

For a person who hasn't had anything to eat, in freezing temperatures, without enough warm clothes,  and who is physically exhausted it would most likely accelerate hypothermia.

You can take a water bottle/canteen and put it under your outer layer but not next to your skin.   It will slowly melt from body heat without lowering your core.  I havent heard if she had a bottle of any kind.

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Online roamer_1

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Sorry but you're wrong.  Unless of course you've discovered a way to generate heat without an energy source.   

@driftdiver
Sorry, I ain't wrong. That's how it's done. Any canteen you have is going to be ice, or near ice... Same with creeks. eating snow is fine if it is done slowly. in fact, it is likely more controlled than chugging on an ice cold canteen.

I am well accustomed to long term sub-zero wilderness winter survival, and seldom carry a canteen or skin in the wintertime. I will stop for rest, build a fire, and get some hot tea in from time to time, but mostly, just a wee bit of snow, all the time, to stay hydrated.

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As any person who has every drank an icy drink can attest, they cool you down. 

Not if you sip it slowly... keep it in your mouth a while.

Quote
For a person who hasn't had anything to eat, in freezing temperatures, without enough warm clothes,  and who is physically exhausted it would most likely accelerate hypothermia.

Well, ok - because if they are stupid enough to be unable to get a fire, they will not have the fortitude to do about anything.

Quote
You can take a water bottle/canteen and put it under your outer layer but not next to your skin.   It will slowly melt from body heat without lowering your core. 

Nope. a skin, right in with you will stay thawed and warm... but it has to be right in with you... shirt level. Inside the outer coat will freeze right up.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 05:54:57 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline driftdiver

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@driftdiver
Sorry, I ain't wrong. That's how it's done. Any canteen you have is going to be ice, or near ice... Same with creeks. eating snow is fine if it is done slowly. in fact, it is likely more controlled than chugging on an ice cold canteen.

I am well accustomed to long term sub-zero wilderness winter survival, and seldom carry a canteen or skin in the wintertime. I will stop for rest, build a fire, and get some hot tea in from time to time, but mostly, just a wee bit of snow, all the time, to stay hydrated.

Not if you sip it slowly... keep it in your mouth a while.

Well, ok - because if they are stupid enough to be unable to get a fire, they will not have the fortitude to do about anything.

Nope. a skin, right in with you will stay thawed and warm... but it has to be right in with you... shirt level. Inside the outer coat will freeze right up.

And that would have killed her in this situation.  Like so many on here you can't handle disagreement without turning to insults.   It shows you have a weak mind.
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Offline TomSea

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I have seen weather every bit as nasty as many winter days in North Dakota (subzero temps, near whiteout conditions w/ blowing snow) in Nevada--elevation makes the difference.

Well, ND is especially brutal in the winter; open prairie.

What I was thinking that even in their car, if they had some spare clothes or something, blankets and got together with their body warmth, they might have been able to survive but to her rightful credit, she didn't want to take a chance, so I guess she did the best thing.

ND can have wind chills up to 30 below, maybe even 60 below. There are odd cases where places have gotten 80 below wind chills, not the norm but it happens I understand.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 08:25:39 pm by TomSea »

Offline TomSea

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Basic survival tips say to drink your urine.

It's kind of sick to mention, it's some time now. Do they tell you to eat you know? Your other waste product? I forget that but not to repulse anyone but drinking urine is a time tested method. It is afterall, just done to survive.

I don't want to gross anyone out in saying that. I know we learned some of that, now some years ago.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 08:24:22 pm by TomSea »

Offline driftdiver

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Basic survival tips say to drink your urine.

It's kind of sick to mention, it's some time now. Do they tell you to eat you know? Your other waste product? I forget that but not to repulse anyone but drinking urine is a time tested method. It is afterall, just done to survive.

I don't want to gross anyone out in saying that. I know we learned some of that, now some years ago.

Drinking urine is generally a bad idea.  It's sterile when it comes out but bacteria grow very quickly.

The real problem is that as you become more dehydrated the toxins are more concentrated in the urine.   It can actually make the dehydration worse.
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Offline TomSea

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All the same, I appreciate Roamer 1's comments and experience. I've had a tiny bit of that, once out in the wilderness, well, I think I got mild frost bite but enough of that. Good comments all around.

Offline TomSea

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As for eating the snow, that might actually be safe in my opinion and without backup in say, 20 degrees plus winter weather, I may be wrong but if it were 10 degrees or less, I don't think I'd try it and definitely NOT under 0 degrees. Who knows?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 09:52:35 pm by TomSea »

Offline thackney

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Just for the info, the FM 21-76 US ARMY SURVIVAL MANUAL, says not to "eat snow" as it leads to drop of body temperature and dehydration (eventually).  The body has to do more work to recover the heat loss.

It recommends melting the snow with an outside heat source, not helpful in her situation.

It also recommends not to drink urine for the body wastes (toxins) and salts.

http://www.preppers.info/uploads/FM21-76_SurvivalManual.pdf

Pages 52 & 56.
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Offline driftdiver

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Just for the info, the FM 21-76 US ARMY SURVIVAL MANUAL, says not to "eat snow" as it leads to drop of body temperature and dehydration (eventually).  The body has to do more work to recover the heat loss.

It recommends melting the snow with an outside heat source, not helpful in her situation.

It also recommends not to drink urine for the body wastes (toxins) and salts.

http://www.preppers.info/uploads/FM21-76_SurvivalManual.pdf

Pages 52 & 56.

@thackney

That's what I learned in the air force survival school and has been repeated by numerous experts since then.  It depends on the person and situation but the secret is to avoid this kind of situation in the first place.
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I went through my own ordeal last week when I made a pot of chili and realized I had forgotten to buy crackers.  8888crybaby

Offline Sanguine

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I went through my own ordeal last week when I made a pot of chili and realized I had forgotten to buy crackers.  8888crybaby

We're glad you survived it.  But, what do crackers have to do with chili?  (Ducking)

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Well, ND is especially brutal in the winter; open prairie.

What I was thinking that even in their car, if they had some spare clothes or something, blankets and got together with their body warmth, they might have been able to survive but to her rightful credit, she didn't want to take a chance, so I guess she did the best thing.

ND can have wind chills up to 30 below, maybe even 60 below. There are odd cases where places have gotten 80 below wind chills, not the norm but it happens I understand.
Fairly ordinary winter days in ND have static air temps of between the single digits above to the mid twenties below zero. Add in wind usually ten to fifteen miles per hour.

The worst I have seen in ND was -60 (static air, unofficial, a local with a spirit thermometer) with a 40 mph wind. I found that on a military arctic operations chart and the wind chill is -146. We (I and a co-worker) were out in that for periods up to 15 minutes at a time, and had to heat the propane tank every hour or so to keep the furnace in the mobile lab going. 

I have seen -54 in Riverton, WY. Thank God the wind wasn't blowing for that.

In Nevada, at altitude in desert terrain, temps down to -20 are quite possible.

People don't realize that deserts aren't just hot, but without the insulating effect of moisture can get very cold at night, especially in winter. Add altitude, and it can get really nasty.

Survival, ultimately, is a contest to retain enough hydration and calories to maintain homeostasis. Good survival food for this sort of situation is high in protein, oils, fats, and with some carbs. (Think pemmican and jerky, the original trail foods). Most trail mixes have nuts (oils/fats) and carbs, add in jerky for protein, and the only remaining problem is hydration.
 
In winter, you breathe out moist, warm air, but the air you inhale is cold and dry. There is a net moisture loss, unless you have something over your face which will capture the moisture and the air you inhale picks it back up on the way in. Even so, that only reduces the loss rate and helps you retain some body heat. The advantage of a beard is not that it is a moisture trap, but that it will build a layer of ice on the outside, effectively creating a dead air layer between the skin and the ice, which acts to retain heat in windy conditions. A moustache does the same, but tends to build icicles (the walrus look).

Clothing: A hat will help retain heat you would otherwise lose bareheaded. Up to 40% of the heat lost by a human is lost from the head. Hoods have the added benefit of being heated by air moving from your body to the hood area, and can be even better. Boots and gloves: practical walking boots which will keep your feet warm and dry, gloves or mittens to keep your hands from becoming damaged. Dress in layers: Inner layers should trap air, but not retain moisture, the outer layer should be windproof, but able to breathe when you move. layers in between can be added or removed depending on exertion levels, with the objective of staying warm, but not sweating.  More clothing will be needed if you are at rest, less if you are exerting yourself.
 With those objectives in mind, many of the materials inside an automobile can be used to insulate a human, too. Fabric from seat backs, upholstery, even the foam padding can be adapted to help you retain heat in an emergency. The car can be replaced. You can't.
The objective is to retain as much heat as possible, again without sweating (you lose heat as your sweat evaporates, and you will have to produce that heat later by burning calories). Jealously guard the warm air in your clothing, you pay in calories to produce more.

Patience is a virtue, being in a hurry can lead to rash decisions. Take your time, if you aren't injured, you want to stay that way, if you are, you need to be careful not to make matters worse.

Usually (especially in winter) staying with the vehicle is the preferred option. It is easier to spot than you are, especially in the winter in snow. Keep the windows and windshield clear of snow, when the sun comes out these will reflect light back toward searchers, but also let the sun warm the interior of the vehicle. That flash of a reflection off the glass can be a lifesaver.

If you are too far off the beaten path, you can dehydrate, starve, or become hypothermic long before help arrives. There are roads and trails that might not be traveled by any one for six months at a time. A few hours exposed can be fatal.

I knew a man who froze to death one night (-20) when his car slid off the road into a snowbank. He apparently got out to check on the vehicle and the wind blew the door shut, automatically locking him out. He was found the next day. He was too far from the nearest house to walk, and no one came by until the next day.

In this case, the lady made the right choice. How do I know it was the right choice?

It worked, they all lived.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Fairly ordinary winter days in ND have static air temps of between the single digits above to the mid twenties below zero. Add in wind usually ten to fifteen miles per hour.

The worst I have seen in ND was -60 (static air, unofficial, a local with a spirit thermometer) with a 40 mph wind. I found that on a military arctic operations chart and the wind chill is -146. We (I and a co-worker) were out in that for periods up to 15 minutes at a time, and had to heat the propane tank every hour or so to keep the furnace in the mobile lab going. 

I have seen -54 in Riverton, WY. Thank God the wind wasn't blowing for that.

In Nevada, at altitude in desert terrain, temps down to -20 are quite possible.

People don't realize that deserts aren't just hot, but without the insulating effect of moisture can get very cold at night, especially in winter. Add altitude, and it can get really nasty.

Survival, ultimately, is a contest to retain enough hydration and calories to maintain homeostasis. Good survival food for this sort of situation is high in protein, oils, fats, and with some carbs. (Think pemmican and jerky, the original trail foods). Most trail mixes have nuts (oils/fats) and carbs, add in jerky for protein, and the only remaining problem is hydration.
 
In winter, you breathe out moist, warm air, but the air you inhale is cold and dry. There is a net moisture loss, unless you have something over your face which will capture the moisture and the air you inhale picks it back up on the way in. Even so, that only reduces the loss rate and helps you retain some body heat. The advantage of a beard is not that it is a moisture trap, but that it will build a layer of ice on the outside, effectively creating a dead air layer between the skin and the ice, which acts to retain heat in windy conditions. A moustache does the same, but tends to build icicles (the walrus look).

Clothing: A hat will help retain heat you would otherwise lose bareheaded. Up to 40% of the heat lost by a human is lost from the head. Hoods have the added benefit of being heated by air moving from your body to the hood area, and can be even better. Boots and gloves: practical walking boots which will keep your feet warm and dry, gloves or mittens to keep your hands from becoming damaged. Dress in layers: Inner layers should trap air, but not retain moisture, the outer layer should be windproof, but able to breathe when you move. layers in between can be added or removed depending on exertion levels, with the objective of staying warm, but not sweating.  More clothing will be needed if you are at rest, less if you are exerting yourself.
 With those objectives in mind, many of the materials inside an automobile can be used to insulate a human, too. Fabric from seat backs, upholstery, even the foam padding can be adapted to help you retain heat in an emergency. The car can be replaced. You can't.
The objective is to retain as much heat as possible, again without sweating (you lose heat as your sweat evaporates, and you will have to produce that heat later by burning calories). Jealously guard the warm air in your clothing, you pay in calories to produce more.

Patience is a virtue, being in a hurry can lead to rash decisions. Take your time, if you aren't injured, you want to stay that way, if you are, you need to be careful not to make matters worse.

Usually (especially in winter) staying with the vehicle is the preferred option. It is easier to spot than you are, especially in the winter in snow. Keep the windows and windshield clear of snow, when the sun comes out these will reflect light back toward searchers, but also let the sun warm the interior of the vehicle. That flash of a reflection off the glass can be a lifesaver.

If you are too far off the beaten path, you can dehydrate, starve, or become hypothermic long before help arrives. There are roads and trails that might not be traveled by any one for six months at a time. A few hours exposed can be fatal.

I knew a man who froze to death one night (-20) when his car slid off the road into a snowbank. He apparently got out to check on the vehicle and the wind blew the door shut, automatically locking him out. He was found the next day. He was too far from the nearest house to walk, and no one came by until the next day.

In this case, the lady made the right choice. How do I know it was the right choice?

It worked, they all lived.

But it's a dry cold out West; humidity really adds to where it chills to the bone.