Author Topic: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress  (Read 17241 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #125 on: December 19, 2016, 11:55:12 pm »


The military deployment case involving Dr. Connie Rhodes was not the one I was talking about.  I was talking about an Army Major in California named Robert something-or-other.  It was one of the earliest cases.

Found it!

Cook v. Good

On February 1, 2009, Stefan F. Cook, a Major in the United States Army Reserve, contacted Taitz via e-mail, asking to be part of her lawsuit. On May 8, he volunteered to serve for one year in Afghanistan beginning on July 15, 2009. The Army accepted his offer and ordered him to report on that date. On July 8, however, he filed suit, with Taitz as his lawyer, seeking a temporary restraining order and status as a conscientious objector, arguing that his deployment orders were invalid because Obama was not a natural-born U.S. citizen, and therefore ineligible to serve as commander-in-chief of the armed forces. His orders were thereupon revoked; an Army spokesperson stated, "A reserve soldier who volunteers for an active duty tour may ask for a revocation of orders up until the day he is scheduled to report for active duty." Accordingly, Cook's case was dismissed as moot on July 16.

In the lawsuit, captioned Stefan Frederick Cook v. Wanda L. Good (Colonel Wanda L. Good -Commander, U.S. Army Human Resources Command – St. Louis) and filed in the United States District Court for the Middle District of Georgia, Cook asserted that he "would be acting in violation of international law by engaging in military actions outside the United States under this President's command. ... simultaneously subjecting himself to possible prosecution as a war criminal by the faithful execution of these duties." In April, before Cook volunteered for deployment to Afghanistan, he had been included in Taitz's list of people she said she represented as plaintiffs, in a letter raising the citizenship issue. A retired Army major general and an active reserve US Air Force lieutenant colonel subsequently joined the Georgia case as plaintiffs alongside Cook. Cook's deployment orders were canceled, and a government spokesman explained, "The Commanding General of SOCCENT (U.S. Special Operations Central Command) has determined that he does not want the services of Major Cook, and has revoked his deployment orders."[50] An Army CENTCOM spokesman rejected as false claims that the revocation validated Cook's claims: "This in no way validates any of the outlandish claims made by Maj. Cook or his attorney. The idea that this validates those charges about the president's fitness for office is simply false."

After the case was filed, Taitz alleged that Cook had been terminated from his civilian job with a defense contractor, after the situation at his company had become "nutty and crazy".

Cook received significant media coverage on July 16, 2009, from Fox News's Sean Hannity.

After the lawsuit was reported in the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, the newspaper reported receiving "the highest volume of traffic ever by a single story in the history of ledger-enquirer.com, including written threats against the newspaper", with nearly half a million new readers and hundreds of e-mails. The threats prompted an increase in security around the courthouse where Cook's case was heard, as well as precautions being taken to protect the author of the newspaper's reports on the case. Executive Editor Ben Holden noted: "The chatter had the feel of a righteous cause – almost a religious cause – because some people hate this president."

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #126 on: December 20, 2016, 12:20:18 am »
Rhodes v. MacDonald


Yes! I remember that case.  Taitz was shocked at getting thrown out of court so quickly.  (She was too inexperienced as a trial lawyer to be able to stay in and joust with a judge who made snap judgments against her client in a preliminary hearing.  All of Taitz's preparations went for naught, and she got pretty intemperate about that!)       

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #127 on: December 20, 2016, 12:44:23 am »
Found it!

Cook v. Good
Thanks, Elderberry.  It was Stefan Cook.  I guess I was thinking of a FReeper friend named Robert Cook.

That trial, had it gone through, would have been interesting--but it was way before all of the evidence concerning the Hawaiian Birth Certificate had surfaced.  (I remember hearing the Army declaring that the decision not to deploy Cook had nothing to do with the case, thanks.  But subsequent refusals by Obama--for a matter of years--to release the Long Form Certificate or anything else that would have been of interest to plaintiffs in the twenty or so lawsuits that arose in the Birther controversy are still damning.  Oddly enough, the Birth Certificate that Obama eventually did [rather hurriedly] release appears to be the most damning thing of all.) 

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #128 on: December 20, 2016, 01:53:13 pm »
Alright,

@the_doc and @Elderberry,

I'll keep my eyes open (again) but I won't be shocked if nothing happens.
He'll be gone before this ever goes to trial, IMO.
The best, I think, we can hope for, is that there may be laws put in place in the future to require more substantial proof of eligibility before one goes on the various ballots across the 50 states.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #129 on: December 20, 2016, 01:58:46 pm »
Alright,

@the_doc and @Elderberry,

I'll keep my eyes open (again) but I won't be shocked if nothing happens.
He'll be gone before this ever goes to trial, IMO.
The best, I think, we can hope for, is that there may be laws put in place in the future to require more substantial proof of eligibility before one goes on the various ballots across the 50 states.

I gave up on hoping for that when everytime a state legislature tried to bring it up some moron attached Obama's name to it and killed it dead.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #130 on: December 20, 2016, 02:55:26 pm »
Rhodes v. MacDonald

In September 2009, Taitz was retained by Captain Connie Rhodes, a U.S. Army physician. Rhodes sought a restraining order to prevent her forthcoming deployment to Iraq. In the request for a restraining order, Taitz argued the deployment order was illegal since Obama was illegally serving as President. On September 16, federal judge Clay D. Land rejected the motion and denounced it as frivolous. In his opinion, the judge noted that Rhodes had not previously raised any objections to orders she had received from Obama since he had been sworn in. He noted that while she seemed to have "conscientious objections" to taking orders from Obama, she did not seem to object to serving under him "as long as she is permitted to remain on American soil". Land then upbraided Taitz for using military officers as pawns to further her claims that Obama was not qualified to be President. He also expressed astonishment at Taitz's apparent misunderstanding of American judicial fundamentals, saying that she was trying to make Obama "'prove his innocence' to 'charges' that are based upon conjecture and speculation".

By Capt. Rhodes' logic, every single commissioning of an officer since Obama took office would be invalid.  That means almost every company grade officer in the military would not be have to be obeyed, and soldiers could disobey them with impunity because they have no legal basis to give orders.  Release Bergdahl while you're at it, because he was under no obligation to follow orders.  Also release Bradley Manning, because his court-martial would have been improperly convened.  Heck, we'd probably have to release a whole bunch of prisoners from Leavenworth, undue 8 years of promotions made by general officers not empowered to do so....quite the mess!

Oh, and while we're at it, every federal prosecution by a U.S. attorney appointed by Obama also would be invalid because that prosecutor had no right to appear.  So release all those cons as well.

The argument is beyond ridiculous.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 03:56:15 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #131 on: December 20, 2016, 03:26:26 pm »
Why is it whenever I think of people trying to prove Obama's BC was fake I think of a dog chasing its tail. Pretty much a futile effort, and if they do catch it, what then? He's out of office in one month. Would that mean everything he did while in office would be invalidated??????  ...hmmmmmm......hey, let's look at that BC again....hand me my magnifying glass.  22222frying pan

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #132 on: December 20, 2016, 03:54:59 pm »
Why is it whenever I think of people trying to prove Obama's BC was fake I think of a dog chasing its tail. Pretty much a futile effort, and if they do catch it, what then? He's out of office in one month. Would that mean everything he did while in office would be invalidated??????  ...hmmmmmm......hey, let's look at that BC again....hand me my magnifying glass.  22222frying pan

Whatever the argument may have been in the past, him exiting office makes it all moot.  The truth is that if it was proved that he really was born in the U.S., those of us who didn't like him, still wouldn't.  And if it was proved that was wasn't born here, it wouldn't matter in the slightest to those who liked/supported him as President.  The lines are drawn, and nobody is changing sides at this point.

At this point, pursuing it is sheer vanity.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 04:17:24 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Emjay

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #133 on: December 20, 2016, 03:56:40 pm »
Why is it whenever I think of people trying to prove Obama's BC was fake I think of a dog chasing its tail. Pretty much a futile effort, and if they do catch it, what then? He's out of office in one month. Would that mean everything he did while in office would be invalidated??????  ...hmmmmmm......hey, let's look at that BC again....hand me my magnifying glass.  22222frying pan

I think it would be interesting to have an investigation into this matter done by competent, unbiased people with full resources.  (I know, I know)

With all the wastes of time done in DC, why are people worried about this one?  I don't get it.

Is it because people are afraid of being aligned with or called 'nut cases?'

It is not futile.  I know Obama will officially be 'out of office' but he is setting up shop in DC and plans to work hard for the future of America.  That scares me.

So anything that will discredit him or lessen his influence works for me.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #134 on: December 20, 2016, 04:28:55 pm »
I think it would be interesting to have an investigation into this matter done by competent, unbiased people with full resources.  (I know, I know)

With all the wastes of time done in DC, why are people worried about this one?  I don't get it.

Because the perception, or spin, is going to be that the only reason people would pursue the legitimacy of the first black President after he has left office is because they are racist. I know that isn't true, and you know that isn't true.  But there are a lot of folks in the middle who must might buy into that.  And I'd prefer for as many of them as possible to keep an open mind towards voting GOP in the future.  That's something that actually matters in a practical sense for the future of this country, and I'll value that over what amounts to a purely academic, theoretical exercise 10/10.
That's really the bottom line for me.  Frankly, it's the kind of thing the left would love -- a self-inflicted would by the right.

Quote
So anything that will discredit him or lessen his influence works for me.

Serious question here -- in exactly whose minds do you think it would discredit him, or lessen his influence?

First thing to realize is that there would be a very sizeable group of people who wouldn't believe your evidence no matter how compelling you thought it was.  They'd say it was faked, forged, or just a pack of lies.  You have zero chance of reaching those people.

Then there are us -- who didn't like him already.  It's not going to change anything with us either.

That means the only people you're really hoping to reach are those who liked what he did as President, but may be convinced that he was not a citizen.  But do you really think that group will care at this point?  How may people are likely to change their view of whether or not he did a good job as President, and whether or not he's someone who should be listened to in the future, just because it is learned that he wasn't born in Hawaii?  I mean, I think you'd be lucky to find fifty, and I'm not exaggerating.

People's views of him are already formed, and proving where he was born won't change that.


Offline Sanguine

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #135 on: December 20, 2016, 04:53:33 pm »
Because the perception, or spin, is going to be that the only reason people would pursue the legitimacy of the first black President after he has left office is because they are racist. I know that isn't true, and you know that isn't true.  But there are a lot of folks in the middle who must might buy into that.  And I'd prefer for as many of them as possible to keep an open mind towards voting GOP in the future.  That's something that actually matters in a practical sense for the future of this country, and I'll value that over what amounts to a purely academic, theoretical exercise 10/10.
That's really the bottom line for me.  Frankly, it's the kind of thing the left would love -- a self-inflicted would by the right.

Serious question here -- in exactly whose minds do you think it would discredit him, or lessen his influence?

First thing to realize is that there would be a very sizeable group of people who wouldn't believe your evidence no matter how compelling you thought it was.  They'd say it was faked, forged, or just a pack of lies.  You have zero chance of reaching those people.

Then there are us -- who didn't like him already.  It's not going to change anything with us either.

That means the only people you're really hoping to reach are those who liked what he did as President, but may be convinced that he was not a citizen.  But do you really think that group will care at this point?  How may people are likely to change their view of whether or not he did a good job as President, and whether or not he's someone who should be listened to in the future, just because it is learned that he wasn't born in Hawaii?  I mean, I think you'd be lucky to find fifty, and I'm not exaggerating.

People's views of him are already formed, and proving where he was born won't change that.

Your objections don't make sense. 

"People's views of him are already formed, and proving where he was born won't change that."

Of course they will change, if it is shown that he is a liar in the most basic of things, and is not to be trusted.  There are always some kook-aid drinking true believers, and, no, you're probably not going to change their minds (such as they are), but you can marginalize them by revealing the falseness of their beliefs. 

Offline Emjay

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #136 on: December 20, 2016, 05:05:40 pm »
Your objections don't make sense. 

"People's views of him are already formed, and proving where he was born won't change that."

Of course they will change, if it is shown that he is a liar in the most basic of things, and is not to be trusted.  There are always some kook-aid drinking true believers, and, no, you're probably not going to change their minds (such as they are), but you can marginalize them by revealing the falseness of their beliefs.

Two good arguments.  But I prefer to believe that ... besides racists who worship him because he is (sort of) Black ... a lot of people have bought into the media's perception and presentation of the man.

Those same racists may think this is an attack because he is Black but that is a puerile argument.  He was elected by a majority of voters only a relatively small percentage of whom are Black.

If it could actually be proven that he was involved in fraud to be elected, it would hurt him.

We must stop being afraid of being called racist, sexist, or other leftist created terms when we know we are in the right. 
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #137 on: December 20, 2016, 05:20:08 pm »
Two good arguments.  But I prefer to believe that ... besides racists who worship him because he is (sort of) Black ... a lot of people have bought into the media's perception and presentation of the man.

Those same racists may think this is an attack because he is Black but that is a puerile argument.  He was elected by a majority of voters only a relatively small percentage of whom are Black.

If it could actually be proven that he was involved in fraud to be elected, it would hurt him.

We must stop being afraid of being called racist, sexist, or other leftist created terms when we know we are in the right.

 blij26

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #138 on: December 20, 2016, 05:48:50 pm »

Of course they will change, if it is shown that he is a liar in the most basic of things, and is not to be trusted.

You're assuming that the people who liked and supported him will actually believe the same evidence that convinces you.  They won't.

And even if you could find such evidence, his easy retort is going to be "As a newborn, I wasn't aware of which country I was in, so I went off what my mom told me, and she always told me I was born in Hawaii.  So, I believed her.  Wouldn't you?"  Like him or not, the guy is charismatic (at least to his supporters).

Winning an argument in a court of law -- assuming it would even get to the point of a trial which I don't think it ever would -- is not the same as winning in the court of public opinion.  And in opposition to whatever "evidence" you wave around will be a chorus of support from the media, Hollywood, plenty of RINO-types, and all the people he manages to charm.

And I'd add that you don't even get to the point of having a trial and verdict (which, for legal reasons of mootness, I don't think would ever happen) until years of pre-trial maneuvering occurs, during the pendency of which the left would be hammering it as a purely racist endeavor.  Then, of course, there's the possibility that the verdict goes the wrong way, in which case you'll have just doubled down on claims of racism.

In any event, that's why so many of the rest of us don't support it.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #139 on: December 20, 2016, 06:05:11 pm »
I think it would be interesting to have an investigation into this matter done by competent, unbiased people with full resources.  (I know, I know)

With all the wastes of time done in DC, why are people worried about this one?  I don't get it.

Is it because people are afraid of being aligned with or called 'nut cases?'

It is not futile.  I know Obama will officially be 'out of office' but he is setting up shop in DC and plans to work hard for the future of America.  That scares me.

So anything that will discredit him or lessen his influence works for me.
My dislike of King Barack is hotter than  that of 10,000 suns. But I have not seen one bit of evidence to prove his BC is a fake. I have not seen one piece of evidence proving that he was born anywhere else but Hawaii.  Why can't people accept the evidence that he was born in Hawaii with one American parent?
Sheriff Joe has let his hatred of Obama drive him a bit loopy. Which makes Obama happy.  If some people want to keep chasing that mirage of a fake BC, go right ahead. But you are just wasting your time.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 06:07:31 pm by goatprairie »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #140 on: December 20, 2016, 06:18:03 pm »
My dislike of King Barack is hotter than  that of 10,000 suns. But I have not seen one bit of evidence to prove his BC is a fake. I have not seen one piece of evidence proving that he was born anywhere else but Hawaii.  Why can't people accept the evidence that he was born in Hawaii with one American parent?

You're exactly right.  Even there was some evidence out there suggesting that he wasn't born in the U.S., there is enough other stuff out there suggesting the contrary to which his supporters would cling.  You'll get one expert saying "it's a fake!" and another saying "no it isn't!"  That's unavoidable in those kinds of cases, and there's always going to be enough of a reed on both sides to which supporters can cling.  No minds will be changed.  People will just dig in their heels even more.  Heck, how many minds have the birthers actually changed over the last 5 or so years?  Anyone?

And again, I don't even see how you even get it into court in the first place, especially after he's already out of office.  There's no case/controversy to be adjudicated.  What relief/remedy is going to be sought?  As I stated above, the odds on a judge buying into an argument that his entire presidency must be unraveled because of a claim that he should not have been elected in the first place is simply not going to float with 99.9% of judges.  What's done is done.  So all that can really be done subsequently is to ask for a symbolic declaration that he wasn't lawfully elected, and courts do not do that.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 06:22:46 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #141 on: December 20, 2016, 06:53:35 pm »
By Capt. Rhodes' logic, every single commissioning of an officer since Obama took office would be invalid.  That means almost every company grade officer in the military would not be have to be obeyed, and soldiers could disobey them with impunity because they have no legal basis to give orders.  Release Bergdahl while you're at it, because he was under no obligation to follow orders.  Also release Bradley Manning, because his court-martial would have been improperly convened.  Heck, we'd probably have to release a whole bunch of prisoners from Leavenworth, undue 8 years of promotions made by general officers not empowered to do so....quite the mess!

Oh, and while we're at it, every federal prosecution by a U.S. attorney appointed by Obama also would be invalid because that prosecutor had no right to appear.  So release all those cons as well.

The argument is beyond ridiculous.

Pardon me for thinking your argument is the ridiculous one. 

What I find to be ridiculous is your insinuation that the legal remedies are so monumentally difficult that we must do NOTHING AT ALL.  For example, you are telling us (by omission) that all of the Federal judges appointed by Obama have to be left in place.  That, to me, is patently ridiculous.  If Obama is found to be a non-citizen (committing perjury in his oath of office), all of his appointments were illegal and all of his appointees could and should be fired--immediately so. 

To show you what is at stake, I would point out that Obama has appointed 329 Federal judges. Only two are in the SCOTUS, but as Mark Levin has pointed out, the most insidious problem with our Federal court system is the influence of liberals at the levels of District and Appellate courts.  If Obama is not a U.S. citizen, we could practically solve that problem practically once and for all.  If we don't solve that problem when we have the opportunity, we are monumentally stupid.

The rest of the problems you mentioned are easily dealt with.  Why?  Because the courts do not have to reverse the irreversible stuff. 
 

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #142 on: December 20, 2016, 07:20:42 pm »
My dislike of King Barack is hotter than  that of 10,000 suns. But I have not seen one bit of evidence to prove his BC is a fake. I have not seen one piece of evidence proving that he was born anywhere else but Hawaii.  Why can't people accept the evidence that he was born in Hawaii with one American parent?
Sheriff Joe has let his hatred of Obama drive him a bit loopy. Which makes Obama happy.  If some people want to keep chasing that mirage of a fake BC, go right ahead. But you are just wasting your time.

I guess you have never bothered to learn enough about Arpaio to realize that he launched the investigation 5 yrs ago specifically to prove that Obama--whom he called his own President--was completely legitimate as POTUS, was actually born in Hawaii.  Arpaio essentially thought the Birthers who petitioned him to look into the matter were flakes.

And since you don't even know that--and yet are determined to malign Arpaio as hate-motivated, as loopy--you are disqualified from being taken seriously when you say I have not seen one piece of evidence proving that he was born anywhere else but Hawaii.  Why can't people accept the evidence that he was born in Hawaii with one American parent?

Heck, you obviously don't know anything about the evidence because you obviously haven't looked at the evidence.

(I don't mean this to be a cruel post, TBR friend, and I am actually trying to be gently firm, but I cannot let you get away with your public hit-and-run statement.  I unfortunately feel that I have to single you out as an example of what I frankly regard as the sort of cranky ignorance that is ruining our society through laziness and disinterest and incredulity.  Many Republicans are playing right into the Alinskyites' hands.) 

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #143 on: December 20, 2016, 07:23:54 pm »


What I find to be ridiculous is your insinuation that the legal remedies are so monumentally difficult that we must do NOTHING AT ALL.

No, my point is that the legal remedy you have proposed is so outrageous that no remotely competent court would accept it.  Absent proposed remedies, the case to adjudicate his birth states would get dismissed under Rule 12(b)(6) -- failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.

 
Quote
For example, you are telling us (by omission) that all of the Federal judges appointed by Obama have to be left in place.  That, to me, is patently ridiculous.  If Obama is found to be a non-citizen (committing perjury in his oath of office), all of his appointments were illegal and all of his appointees could and should be fired--immediately so.

To the contrary, space was the only reason I didn't list that as well, but you're absolutely right.  By your logic, you'd have to toss all the judges appointed by Obama as well.  And again, not only those judges -- but all the decisions they made (because that's your argument) would be invalid as well.  Even if you managed to find a judge drunk enough to actually entertain that argument, and issue that order, it would be shot down in record time by the appropriate Court of Appeals as soon as it could stop laughing long enough to hear the case. 

Quote
To show you what is at stake, I would point out that Obama has appointed 329 Federal judges. Only two are in the SCOTUS, but as Mark Levin has pointed out, the most insidious problem with our Federal court system is the influence of liberals at the levels of District and Appellate courts.  If Obama is not a U.S. citizen, we could practically solve that problem practically once and for all.  If we don't solve that problem when we have the opportunity, we are monumentally stupid.

Never.  Going.  To.  Happen.  I've practiced law for nearly 25 years, been in front of both my state and the U.S. Supreme Court, and what you are claiming should be done is something no remotely competent judge would entertain for a moment.

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #144 on: December 20, 2016, 07:30:13 pm »

And I'd add that you don't even get to the point of having a trial and verdict (which, for legal reasons of mootness, I don't think would ever happen) until years of pre-trial maneuvering occurs, during the pendency of which the left would be hammering it as a purely racist endeavor.  Then, of course, there's the possibility that the verdict goes the wrong way, in which case you'll have just doubled down on claims of racism.

In any event, that's why so many of the rest of us don't support it.

It will never be legally moot.  Treason has no statute of limitations.  There are only 6 laws that have no statute of limitations:
 
1.If you kill someone: A charge of murder can be made at any time.
2.Fraud and embezzlement: You will be looking over your shoulder forever.
3.War Crimes: If you commit a series of crimes against humanity - a la Slobodan Milosevic - then you will never be forgiven just because you have lived a long happy life.
4.Kidnapping: Do not think you can get away with taking someone's children.
5.Treason: Some of our famous spy cases have been prosecuted decades after the events took place. We never forgive treason.
6.Not paying back your federal student loans.

This is not about politics, but about justice.  Even if it freaks out the libs, we have to press forward with the investigation.  We have to defend the Constitution.  The Constitution has no power to defend itself.

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #145 on: December 20, 2016, 08:06:07 pm »
No, my point is that the legal remedy you have proposed is so outrageous that no remotely competent court would accept it.  Absent proposed remedies, the case to adjudicate his birth states would get dismissed under Rule 12(b)(6) -- failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.

I am familiar with the Rule.  It is, in fact, integral to the doctrine of standing.  But the case can be narrowly brought with proposed remedies for many, many things.  And firing Obama's illegal appointees is one of them.  The damage his appointees did can be sorted out over time by a commission established by the court.   It ain't easy, but it is doable.  And it is necessary if Obama was committing treason (or the non-citizen's approximation thereof.)

To cite an important principle of law:  "Necessity overrides [your view of and the traditional view taken by the courts concerning] the law."

 (By the way, this role of necessity is a time-honored principle of law, as you should already know.  And necessity danged sure overrules mere difficulty in threading through the possible legal remedies.  Furthermore, necessity overrules politics--the politics that you keep bringing up.  Our leaders left us a mess, and we must work on straightening it out.  If Obama is guilty, we must bring him to justice.  It would be difficult, but it is doable.

In other words, although I appreciate your credentials, I say that they are necessarily non-useful at this weird point in our history.  We ain't playing courtly lawyer games.  Anyone who thinks we are just jousting for smart-aleck exhilarations is not thinking straight at all. 
 

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #146 on: December 20, 2016, 08:07:01 pm »
It will never be legally moot.  Treason has no statute of limitations.

Mootness has nothing to do with the statute of limitations.  It is essentially the legal equivalent of locking the barn after the horse has escaped.

Quote
There are only 6 laws that have no statute of limitations:
 
1.If you kill someone: A charge of murder can be made at any time.
2.Fraud and embezzlement: You will be looking over your shoulder forever.
3.War Crimes: If you commit a series of crimes against humanity - a la Slobodan Milosevic - then you will never be forgiven just because you have lived a long happy life.
4.Kidnapping: Do not think you can get away with taking someone's children.
5.Treason: Some of our famous spy cases have been prosecuted decades after the events took place. We never forgive treason.
6.Not paying back your federal student loans.

Friendly advice -- quit getting your legal advice from Wikipedia, or from the back of cereal boxes.  It's not exactly reliable -- you've got three state law claims in that list, and one of them is certainly wrong in my state.

Also, I need to start taking my own standard advice of not arguing about the law with non-lawyers.  So, adios.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 08:09:08 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #147 on: December 20, 2016, 08:51:31 pm »
No, my point is that the legal remedy you have proposed is so outrageous that no remotely competent court would accept it.  Absent proposed remedies, the case to adjudicate his birth states would get dismissed under Rule 12(b)(6) -- failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.


In my most recent post, I forgot to point out something that you had completely overlooked:  A grand jury could put Obama on trial for a criminal fraud--regardless of where he was really born.  (And his birth status would almost certainly be adjudicated as a matter of course during the trial.)  If Arpaio is correct concerning the overwhelming evidence of a forgery foisted on the American people, Rule 12(b)(6) would not prevent him from standing trial.

An incidental court finding that Obama is not even a U.S. citizen, but a native-born Kenyan, would open the other can of worms concerning, say, the status of his appointees during an illegal tenure in office.  That is where it gets really interesting.  (See my earlier post.)

Offline the_doc

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #148 on: December 20, 2016, 09:05:34 pm »
Mootness has nothing to do with the statute of limitations.  It is essentially the legal equivalent of locking the barn after the horse has escaped.

Friendly advice -- quit getting your legal advice from Wikipedia, or from the back of cereal boxes.  It's not exactly reliable -- you've got three state law claims in that list, and one of them is certainly wrong in my state.

Also, I need to start taking my own standard advice of not arguing about the law with non-lawyers.  So, adios.

So, you are using mootness as a defense having nothing to do with justice.  By golly, I am going to defy, cheerfully and vigorously, your doctrine of mootness--which I say you are using improperly in our present situation.   

Well, you probably ought to limit your conversations to other lawyers.  (I have a high regard for some lawyers--I have known a lot of them.  But a lot of lawyers are just worms who don't give a fig for justice.  The law is just a BS game for them.)

Cereal box or not, the average reader will notice from my post that TREASON is SERIOUS STUFF.  (If this were a game, I would call that a decisive, winning stroke in my argument against you and your mootness stuff.)

How can you live with such a low regard for retributive justice?   You keep saying We can't go there, but I say We must go there.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Evidence Obama birth certificate 'fake' heading to Congress
« Reply #149 on: December 21, 2016, 02:04:02 pm »
I guess you have never bothered to learn enough about Arpaio to realize that he launched the investigation 5 yrs ago specifically to prove that Obama--whom he called his own President--was completely legitimate as POTUS, was actually born in Hawaii.  Arpaio essentially thought the Birthers who petitioned him to look into the matter were flakes.

And since you don't even know that--and yet are determined to malign Arpaio as hate-motivated, as loopy--you are disqualified from being taken seriously when you say I have not seen one piece of evidence proving that he was born anywhere else but Hawaii.  Why can't people accept the evidence that he was born in Hawaii with one American parent?

Heck, you obviously don't know anything about the evidence because you obviously haven't looked at the evidence.

(I don't mean this to be a cruel post, TBR friend, and I am actually trying to be gently firm, but I cannot let you get away with your public hit-and-run statement.  I unfortunately feel that I have to single you out as an example of what I frankly regard as the sort of cranky ignorance that is ruining our society through laziness and disinterest and incredulity.  Many Republicans are playing right into the Alinskyites' hands.)
I'll tell you what pal...you spend your time trying to prove Obama's BC is fake, and I'll give you a cookie if you can prove it. Doesn't that sound like a good bargain? Otherwise, quit wasting our time with your nonsense.