Author Topic: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban  (Read 9391 times)

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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2016, 11:04:11 pm »
I was adopted at 4 days old.  My bio father was married and gave my bio mother some money and told her to get an abortion.  She didn't. 
And as a result of a recent incident I talked about in the Member's Lounge, I have a pretty pink stun gun that I'd love to use on hating orange.

I am in my 50' s now.
I was born at 6 months, 3.5 early, weighting roughly 2 lbs.
The story is that the Dr. told my Dad, "don't bother naming him, he won't be around long".
I shudder to think if this were my situation since Roe v. Wade.
Well, I probably wouldn't be here to shudder, but most likely I may have been.
My mother was highly a devout christian woman.
I hope that would have remained the same


Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2016, 11:04:31 pm »
I was adopted at 4 days old.  My bio father was married and gave my bio mother some money and told her to get an abortion.  She didn't. 
And as a result of a recent incident I talked about in the Member's Lounge, I have a pretty pink stun gun that I'd love to use on hating orange.

Hubby and I were told for years we could not have children...after nine years of marriage we adopted a two week old baby boy.....There are millions of couples like us who would love to be able to adopt...choose life instead of abortion...

btw...almost 3 years latter we had another baby boy...so doctors can be wrong..and God does answers prayers.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 11:05:06 pm by mystery-ak »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2016, 11:12:53 pm »
Murder is for people.  Parasites, I know that's a but too harsh but the reality is the same, aren't persons.  If you want less abortion, produce better birth control.  I wouldn't mind if there was never another induced abortion but since I deal in reality that is not an option.

Calling human babies "parasites" is not just harsh, it's an outright lie, and ignorant at that  (don't you know anything about human development??). 

It's one human being living temporarily inside another human being.

My children weren't parasites, and they weren't part of my body.  That heartbeat I heard at 10 weeks wasn't my heart.  It belonged to another person.

btw, I agree with the posters above who told you you landed in the wrong place.

This is a conservative, life-valuing site that frowns on leftist propaganda like you're posting.

Go away.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 11:16:26 pm by musiclady »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2016, 11:15:37 pm »
What a cynical post. 

Abortion should not be legal and I support the heartbeat bill.  It is universally popular among real people and would pass in, well, in a heartbeat.

As for birth control, it is cheap and easy.  It's inexcusable not to use it if you don't want to get pregnant.  Anyone can get birth control... anyone.

The culture of evil really began when we started supporting abortion.  It has degraded the moral fiber of society.

Amen!  Great post, @Emjay.

Abortion is the cause of many other evils in this culture of death.

I'm extremely disappointed in Kasich.  I wanted that heartbeat bill to be enacted badly.

Wrong choice.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2016, 02:18:57 am »
He's obviously trying to please both sides.  Some how I feel that neither will be happy.

@libertybele I don't think he wanted to get those votes.

Or maybe he's showing pragmatic leadership.   He vetoed a bill that's likely unconstitutional,  and signed a bill that quite possibly is.   The bill's language regarding the exception for the life of the mother is narrowly drawn,  and is limited to the physical health of the mother.  Note also that the bill's penalties apply to doctors,  not patients.   It can be justified as a regulation.   Abortion clinics can stay in business since most abortions precede 20 weeks (about 2% take place later).  They'll have to document the period of gestation to legally protect themselves,  which will increase the costs of abortion.

The biggest change made by the bill isn't the reduction from 26 to 20 weeks.  There aren't that many abortions during that window.  But many of those are abortions performed because of tests that show fetal abnormality (retardation, etc.)   Those babies will now have to be born, and most will become as a practical matter wards of the state, in some cases for the rest of their lives.  That's because of the change that allows later abortions only to prevent physical harm to the mother.   The diagnosis of psychological harm is the fig leaf that allows parents to choose whether to bear and raise a child with abnormalities.   

 
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2016, 02:20:42 am »
Murder is for people.  Parasites, I know that's a but too harsh but the reality is the same, aren't persons.  If you want less abortion, produce better birth control.  I wouldn't mind if there was never another induced abortion but since I deal in reality that is not an option.

What's your DU name?
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2016, 03:36:46 am »
My grandson was born at just 24 1/2 weeks; he stayed in the NICU and finally went home 3 months later on his actual due date.  He is truly a miracle with no complications.  We celebrate two birthdays with him; the day he made his way into this world and then the day he miraculously got to come home from the hospital.  Because of this the 20 week time frame to me seems much too late in the pregnancy to abort other than for complications and I find it difficult to comprehend and accept.
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2016, 04:46:40 am »
What a cynical post. 

Abortion should not be legal and I support the heartbeat bill.  It is universally popular among real people and would pass in, well, in a heartbeat.

As for birth control, it is cheap and easy.  It's inexcusable not to use it if you don't want to get pregnant.  Anyone can get birth control... anyone.

The culture of evil really began when we started supporting abortion.  It has degraded the moral fiber of society.

Isn't it funny but the abortion people are the same ones that probably sign up to give to the ASPC to help abandoned animals.  They wouldn't hurt a fly or step on a spider.  Or they want to dictate to others how a person should parent their children.  They are know it all people who fit in with the Margaret Sanger idea that only some people should procreate.  No pound puppies! (or low income parasites).

A woman knows right away if she is pregnant.  There should be no reason for any abortions at least not after heartbeat.  They have the day after pill so that negates the in the case of rape argument.  If you don't want to get pregnant don't have unprotected sex.  Its easy.  It is time to stop the killing of human beings.  Disgusting practice that we have allowed.  Lets value human life as much as we value the life of animals.  Should be valued more.  But there are the overpopulation people.



« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 04:55:31 am by Chosen Daughter »
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Offline guitar4jesus

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2016, 11:18:48 am »
I was adopted at 4 days old.  My bio father was married and gave my bio mother some money and told her to get an abortion.  She didn't. 
And as a result of a recent incident I talked about in the Member's Lounge, I have a pretty pink stun gun that I'd love to use on hating orange.

I was also adopted and am glad my mother did not choose to abort.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2016, 12:41:31 pm »
I think you registered at the wrong site..TBR is conservative...we don't consider unborn babies parasites...goodbye
If that was a 'procedure' on a former 'parasite', then maybe there is a good reason!
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2016, 01:03:57 pm »

A woman knows right away if she is pregnant.  There should be no reason for any abortions at least not after heartbeat. 

Simplistically, that's borne out by the facts -  most abortions take place early,  certainly those abortions that are derided as "convenience" abortions.  You find out you're pregnant, you realize you're at the wrong time in your life to have a child, and you quickly get an abortion.   

But let's drill down a bit.   The abortions that would be barred by a heartbeat bill or a pain-threshold bill (e.g., the 20 weeks bill signed by Gov. Kasich)  are the problematic ones,  the ones prompted by events such as abandonment by the father or a break-up in the relationship,  or by the discovery of fetal abnormalities.    We need to recognize that babies who are born "unwanted" will need greater support by the community,  because the normal role of the nurturing parent will be compromised, or impossible to fulfill.   Abortion is a terrible thing, but the circumstances that prompt later-term abortions are tragedies in themselves.   

I recognize that none of the circumstances I've noted above may qualify as valid "reasons" for abortion in your view, and I respect that.  But we shouldn't be blind to the cost of compelling women to give birth under circumstances where the last thing they want to do is raise a child.   Yes, the child will live, but it will "take a village" to provide that child with the kind of life that most of us took for granted growing up.   God bless those with the means and the courage to adopt such kids.       
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:10:42 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 01:20:07 pm »
Those babies will now have to be born, and most will become as a practical matter wards of the state, in some cases for the rest of their lives.  That's because of the change that allows later abortions only to prevent physical harm to the mother.   The diagnosis of psychological harm is the fig leaf that allows parents to choose whether to bear and raise a child with abnormalities.

Would you agree with allowing parents put a newborn to death for discovering them same set of abnormalities?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2016, 01:33:53 pm »
Would you agree with allowing parents put a newborn to death for discovering them same set of abnormalities?

No,  I have no objection to the current law that permits abortions to be banned (except to save the life of the mother) after viability.   At some point you have to draw a line, and I think that's a reasonable line.

I think the bill signed by Kasich is quite possibly Constitutional - it ratchets the age at which abortions are banned from approximately 26 weeks to 20 weeks,  but does not deny the abortion right in the majority of circumstances.  But let's not delude ourselves -  the abortions that will be banned aren't convenience abortions, but abortions sought by reason of tragic, even heartbreaking circumstances.  Our anger may be focused on mothers who abort because, say, they want to finish college, but the impact of this particular abortion ban will be to compel a mother to give birth under circumstances where she will have no family support,  or will have a child with debilitating abnormalities.    The community - and yes, that means we as taxpayers - needs to support mothers in such circumstances.     
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Offline thackney

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 01:51:46 pm »
No,  I have no objection to the current law that permits abortions to be banned (except to save the life of the mother) after viability.   At some point you have to draw a line, and I think that's a reasonable line.

I think the bill signed by Kasich is quite possibly Constitutional - it ratchets the age at which abortions are banned from approximately 26 weeks to 20 weeks,  but does not deny the abortion right in the majority of circumstances.  But let's not delude ourselves -  the abortions that will be banned aren't convenience abortions, but abortions sought by reason of tragic, even heartbreaking circumstances.  Our anger may be focused on mothers who abort because, say, they want to finish college, but the impact of this particular abortion ban will be to compel a mother to give birth under circumstances where she will have no family support,  or will have a child with debilitating abnormalities.    The community - and yes, that means we as taxpayers - needs to support mothers in such circumstances.

Do you consider a child born at 23~25 weeks viable?  Just how poor should their chances have to be to survive before you would agree to have them killed?
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2016, 02:04:01 pm »

I think the bill signed by Kasich is quite possibly Constitutional

Please point to me the section in the Constitution that protects the "right" of abortion.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2016, 02:09:36 pm »
Do you consider a child born at 23~25 weeks viable?  Just how poor should their chances have to be to survive before you would agree to have them killed?

I think abortion is, in most circumstances, morally wrong.  But I'm encouraged by statistics I saw just the other day that show the abortion rate is significantly down.  I think that's the better way to proceed -  persuasion and support for mothers to do the right thing, and more effective contraception.   I think abortion bans are blunt instruments, with unanticipated consequences, and I prefer the route of persuasion rather than compulsion.  '

The current law (no abortions, with very limited exceptions, after viability) represents a compromise.   I've heard that viability is at approximately 26 weeks, but perhaps its a bit sooner in some cases.  Taking that down to 20 weeks may be Constitutional, but it too just represents a political compromise.  Convenience abortions will remain legal,  and it is mothers in more difficult situations that will be forced by the state to give birth.     
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 02:10:51 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2016, 02:13:56 pm »
Please point to me the section in the Constitution that protects the "right" of abortion.

Please point me to the section in the Constitution that grants rights to a fetus vis a vis its mother.   

We all know where the abortion right is grounded - in a woman's natural right to privacy and self-determination.   As a Constitutional matter,  the fetus is part of the mother, and subject to her dominion and control.  I understand that's not how most view the matter from a moral perspective, but from a legal perspective it's the mother who has the rights.   
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Offline thackney

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2016, 02:15:11 pm »
I think abortion is, in most circumstances, morally wrong.  But I'm encouraged by statistics I saw just the other day that show the abortion rate is significantly down.  I think that's the better way to proceed -  persuasion and support for mothers to do the right thing, and more effective contraception.   I think abortion bans are blunt instruments, with unanticipated consequences, and I prefer the route of persuasion rather than compulsion.  '

The current law (no abortions, with very limited exceptions, after viability) represents a compromise.   I've heard that viability is at approximately 26 weeks, but perhaps its a bit sooner in some cases.  Taking that down to 20 weeks may be Constitutional, but it too just represents a political compromise.  Convenience abortions will remain legal,  and it is mothers in more difficult situations that will be forced by the state to give birth.

I find forcing a mother to give birth a far better solution than allowing infanticide.  I realize many won't view it as infanticide, but the survival rate of infants now born at 25 weeks and less is growing significantly.

Babies born at 23 weeks have a 17% chance of survival
Babies born at 24 weeks have a 39% chance of survival
Babies born at 25 weeks have a 50% chance of survival

http://www.preemiesurvival.org/info/
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Offline thackney

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2016, 02:17:45 pm »
Please point me to the section in the Constitution that grants rights to a fetus vis a vis its mother.   

We all know where the abortion right is grounded - in a woman's natural right to privacy and self-determination.   As a Constitutional matter,  the fetus is part of the mother, and subject to her dominion and control.  I understand that's not how most view the matter from a moral perspective, but from a legal perspective it's the mother who has the rights.

It appears the legal status of a pre-born infant is conflicted.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2016, 02:37:52 pm »
Please point me to the section in the Constitution that grants rights to a fetus vis a vis its mother.

That "fetus" as you call it...is a living breathing human being...gestating inside another human being.  It has a heart beat...it has a brain..lungs...legs...arms...a face...abortion defenders have decided to call that person a "fetus" to assuage their guilt at what they are defending...which is the murder of an unborn baby.

But to follow your twisted logic...if as you claim the baby has no rights...why are there laws...federal and state that punish a pregnant woman for doing things to herself that endanger the life of said baby?

Quote
We all know where the abortion right is grounded - in a woman's natural right to privacy and self-determination.



Quick question...does the mother carrying the baby get pregnant by osmosis?


Quote
As a Constitutional matter,  the fetus is part of the mother, and subject to her dominion and control.  I understand that's not how most view the matter from a moral perspective, but from a legal perspective it's the mother who has the rights.

And which section, article or Amendment is that covered under exactly?  I'd like to know which one gives the mother express right to kill a baby she is carrying.

Again...I'll post this question...does the mother get pregnant by osmosis?
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Offline chae

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2016, 03:06:45 pm »
Not too get too religious, but have you ever noticed when you look into the eyes of people who wholeheartedly support abortion on demand at any time, that there is something missing?
I don't know how else to say it, it's almost like they are dead inside...

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2016, 03:10:47 pm »
It appears the legal status of a pre-born infant is conflicted.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

That's not what I said.   Sure, a fetus can have rights vis a vis a third party tortfeasor (although I'd argue that such rights are derivative of the mother's).    But a fetus, at least prior to viability as per Roe,  has no Constitutional rights vis a vis the mother.   Which makes sense - the fetus is wholly dependent on the mother, it is part of her body and cannot survive, yet, on its own.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2016, 03:15:32 pm »
Not too get too religious, but have you ever noticed when you look into the eyes of people who wholeheartedly support abortion on demand at any time, that there is something missing?
I don't know how else to say it, it's almost like they are dead inside...

To justify...condone and defend what is done to a baby in order to abort them...IMO there has to be a part of you that's dead on the inside.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:16:20 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2016, 04:02:46 pm »
I don't think many folks "defend" abortion per se, but rather the woman's Constitutional right to choose for herself whether to bear a child.  Many folks who believe abortion is morally wrong nevertheless defend that most fundamental liberty from encroachment by the state.   You think this is an easy issue?  It's not.   

Thankfully,  abortion rates are headed in the right direction - down - and I am optimistic that trend will continue.  Persuasion and support, and more effective contraception, are working. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 04:03:56 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2016, 04:07:11 pm »
Now, who's forcing one's beliefs on others.

Some states, given to their own devices would totally outlaw it.