Author Topic: Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding  (Read 26815 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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This argument would be valid if 'Christians' did speak up about more than just gay marriage.  For example, selling products to those that engage in premarital sex.

But as they don't, it looks incredibly hypocritical to speak up about this one, single, solitary issue.

So, as a Christian, you would be against making a wedding cake for a couple who had engaged in premarital sex? (Even, if you somehow knew that?)



Offline TomSea

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Legislation will come to protect religious liberties, this current Supreme Court has been way leftist but hopefully, this will change.  Such laws will go before the SCOTUS and the rights of people to act based on their conscience will be upheld.

Such legislation might be more applicable at the State level.

It has already been attempted and maybe passed. I'd have to research it.

Offline Neverdul

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The “pure” libertarian in me (and note the small “l”) and one who supports individual liberty says that a private business owner should be able to choose who they provide services to or not; or who they sell their wares to or not; or who to hire or not hire for employment; and for whatever reason what so ever and without any government interference. 

Sounds good doesn’t it?  Perhaps in principle. But practice, in reality, sometimes not so much – and it might all depend on if you are the one choosing to discriminate or if you are the one being discriminated against.

One has to understand that in that scenario, of discrimination based on religious or political beliefs or personal prejudices - “sometimes you’re the windshield, and sometimes you’re the bug”.

I get that a conservative Christian business owner would not want to provide services to a gay couple for a gay marriage ceremony – forced to bake the cake, forced to take the photographs, forced to DJ or perform the music, forced to produce the wedding invitations and I would say that in principle that they shouldn’t be forced to do so. No one should be forced to go against their deeply held religious or other convictions.

And I also get how it would be offensive for example to force, for example a Jewish baker (and I suspect many others) to be forced to decorate a cake for a “Happy Birth Adolph Hitler” celebration. I sure wouldn’t want to be forced to do that and I am neither Jewish or a Christian.

But let’s say a Christian couple goes to a very popular baker in town for a very traditional wedding cake with the traditional bride and groom topping and perhaps also a traditional Bible verse or “Marriage Is Only Ordained By God” written on it and the baker who is an Atheist tells them, “I just don’t do that sort of traditional type of wedding cake and I won’t decorate it with any Bible verses because I don’t believe in God”. 

Conversely let’s say I’m a devout Evangelical Christian baker and a Catholic or a Mormon or a Muslim or a 7th Day Adventist or an Atheist couple wants me to bake their wedding cake and I refuse because I think Catholicism and Mormonism and Islam and 7th Day Adventists are all “cults” and that Atheists shouldn’t be allowed to get married.

Let’s say that I am a politically conservative owner of a bakery and one day a member of a BLM group wants me to bake a cake with the slogan “Black Lives Matter” or an another group wants me to bake a cake decorated with “Trump Is Not My President” on it. 

Let’s say I am a politically liberal owner of a bakery and one day a Trump supporter wants me to bake a cake with a “TRUMP WON! MAGA! Suck It Up Libs!” with a Pepe The Frog on it.

Let’s say I’m a young attractive single woman and my car breaks down.  I get on my smart phone and find a towing company and call them.  The tow truck operator shows up and he is a devout Muslim and refuses to tow my car because 1) I’m a single woman driving a car and or driving without a male relative and 2) I’m wearing a skimpy bikini top and very short shorts and he finds this manner of dress offensive to his religious beliefs and after showing up refuses to tow my car. 

Let’s say that I’m a very conservative Christian tow truck operator who is likewise offended by her clothing or lack thereof and also the “Hillary For President” and “NARAL” and a “Darwin Fish” bumper sticker on her car and after showing up refuses to tow her car.

Let’s say I’m a Conservative Orthodox Jew who runs a kosher catering company and I get a call to cater an event, provide kosher foods for a Messianic Jewish group and I refuse based on my belief that these people are not really Jews and are making a mockery of “real” Judaism.

Let’s say I own a printing/calligraphy shop and I’m a Wiccan/Pagan and one day a Christian comes in and wants me to produce flyers for her church group that says Halloween is Evil and Pagan, should be banned/outlawed and has no place in America and people who celebrate any Pagan holidays are going straight to Hell!

Let’s say I own an Evangelical Christian Book and Gift store and a Catholic priest walks in one day looking for a gift or a book for the child of a friend or relative and I refuse to serve him because perhaps I think that all Catholic priests are pedophiles.

Let’s say I own a coffee shop and I am an animal rights activist and am also anti-gun and I don’t allow people who wear camo style or hunting type clothing to come in and I put a sign on my door that says that guns (open or CC even if allowed by law) or knives are not allowed in my shop.
 
Let’s say that I am a gay person who owns an architectural/interior design firm and I’m looking to hire someone for a job and I receive a resume from someone who attended a very conservative Christian college that teaches that homosexuality is a sin that should be a punishable crime and advocated conversion therapy and all her prior work experience has been working for Christian organizations with the same POV and although she seems otherwise qualified for the job, I refuse to hire her because I just don’t think she would be a good fit for my company where I and many other gays are working.

Likewise, let’s say I am a devout Christian and the owner of a company where I and nearly all the employees are also Christians and I pass on an applicant who is otherwise very qualified for the job but previously worked for an Atheist org and she comes to her interview with purple hair and with many tattoos and piercings and wearing a Pentagram neckless and I don’t think she would be a good fit.

Let’s say that own a home improvement company and either because of my religious beliefs or just my personal prejudices, I don’t believe in “mixed marriages” and one day I go to the home of a white woman married to a black man or visa versa, who are wanting to get a quote from me to build a new deck on their house and I either refuse to give them a quote or I try to gouge them on the price or do a lousy job because I don’t like their mixed marriage and their “mulatto” children.

Let’s say that I’m an Evangelical Christian belonging to one of those prosperity mega churches and I own a law firm or an insurance brokerage firm. While my business is not a religious org and is not advertised as only serving only the “Christian” community and I don’t hire based on a religious litmus test, I hand out to all employees copies of Joel Osteen’s latest book which I strongly “encourage” everyone to read in their “spare time”, and every morning before work I hold and lead prayer meetings and at lunchtime, a Christian book or Bible study group which are not “mandatory”. However, I do make note of who attends and who doesn’t, who belongs to my church and who doesn’t and those who do not participate just don’t get the same promotion opportunities or the same raises or fair performance evaluations as those who do. (FWIW, I once for a short time, worked at a law firm that did exactly that and had a friend who worked at an insurance brokerage firm that did the same).

Let’s say that I own an apartment complex and I choose not to rent to Blacks, Latinos, Asians and single people who in my “judgement” “might” be gay, or rent to someone with a physical disability such as a blind person or a couple with a child who has Downs Syndrome.

Suppose I go into an upscale clothing and jewelry store and am told by the owner that I can’t shop there because I’m too fat and not attractive enough to be one of their customers. 

I have, and was born with natural red hair. Suppose I walk into a small hair studio one day and the owner/hair dresser tells me that she believes that “gingers” have no soul and are “evil”. I’d probably laugh it off as a joke (hopefully) or if not, I’d go somewhere else to get my hair done, I doubt I would sue.

My point is that if you believe that a business owner has the right to discriminate based on their religious or political or any other beliefs or at their whim and that the government should not interfere what so ever with their decisions, and I’m not saying that perhaps they shouldn’t be able to, then also don’t complain when you are on the receiving end of the discrimination.

In a perfect world where people use common sense, the government would stay completely out of as far as privately owned business go and not enforce rules against some belief systems and not against others and let the free market decide.

I also tend to believe that a business that does not discriminate and provides quality goods and services to all paying customers and hires the best, brightest and most qualified people regardless of their race, orientation, religion, political views, etc., assuming that they and their employees also don’t discriminate or force their POV on others, is in a free market, likely going to be the most successful over time.

FWIW, personally, I wouldn’t patronize any business that had a sign on their business door saying  – “Gays Not Welcome Here”, “Blacks Not Welcome Here”, We Don’t Serve White People”, “Only Real Christians Are Welcomed Here” or “We Don’t Serve Christians” or “We Don’t Serve Conservatives or Liberals”or ….

But also imagine what would happen, what our society would be like (and was like not so long ago) if any business that publicly advertises for services and for customers, could also arbitrarily discriminate against you based on your race, ethnicity, religion, etc….or at their whim.

As I said, in that scenario, “sometimes you’re the windshield, and sometimes you’re the bug” and nobody really wants to be the bug.
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Online Free Vulcan

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But also imagine what would happen, what our society would be like (and was like not so long ago) if any business that publicly advertises for services and for customers, could also arbitrarily discriminate against you based on your race, ethnicity, religion, etc….or at their whim.


True, but there's also the other extreme that liberals conveniently forget in their selectively framed and cherry picked stance on the issue. The extreme where the govt can simply pick and choose what behaviors and such that can be discriminated against, or cannot. And once it falls on the 'cannot' side for some type of behavior, suddenly you're supposed to go along with that, even if it goes against facts and science (and even the law), such as with transgenders.

At that point the State becomes the Church enforcing a picked-and-chosen national morality and caste system of protected group winners and losers, including some and excluding others, and yet somehow calling it all 'equality'. While arbitrary discrimination might not be a pretty scenario, neither would be arbitrary, yet selective forced morality politically spun as inclusion.

Sad part is they destroy the 1st amendment while not truly enforcing the 14th as they claim they are. That and merge Church and State. It's no more of a pretty picture than the other alternative.
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Online roamer_1

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Crazy not to have a corporation today to protect your personal finances from a lawsuit.

I have no personal finances outside of my wages from the business. My property is all owned by a family trust, not by me. My interest bearing and retirement is all wrapped up in short-contracted street-level loans and investments, or convertible-for-profit items (cars, guns, etc) ...partly by design, and partly due to rebuilding after a vicious crash and burn... But once I have rebuilt, that structuring will remain the same.

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You don't carry any business liability insurance? I'm not sure what you do but everyone should carry some liability and  errors and ommisions insurance etc if they run a business whether it's white or blue collar.

I operate as a computer tech repair company. There is no real liability beyond the cost of any machine I happen to be working on, which I can cover out-of-pocket, if needed.  I DO light on-site from time to time, thus the need for vehicle insurance (to and from as working time, thus liable) but the lion's share of my work is received at my home, and done on my bench. Whatever light liability exists is better left to chance than the insurance vultures. I am done paying vig to a$$hol3s for services I will never use, and which, when I DID need them, failed to deliver.

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My wife and I own 3 companies. separate corporation for each.  I own my wifes office building and she pays me rent-she is not on that 4th corporation at all-just me. so if one of her employees screws up or something bad happens the suer cannot get the office building.

I have it set up under my own business I am paid as a regular employee.

Plus we have umbrella policies out the wazhoo.


I have played all those games before... and crapped out several times. What the gov doesn't take, the insurers do, and whatever is left is for the lawyers. Done playing that way. Better to leave myself exposed, with my self being of very little value.

Offline Jazzhead

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Gay marriage isn't discrimination based on the customer's behavior? Really?
How is this any different that writing an obscenity on the cake when the Bible calls that "marriage" an abomination?
Why does the government have the right to force people to do what the Bible says is wrong? Where does the constitution give the government that right.

It's only arbitrary, because you have chosen not to honor their conscience and they have chosen to follow it.

It's a civil marriage, not a religious marriage.  God has nothing to do with it.   And God has nothing to do with the BUSINESS of baking cakes.   
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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It's a civil marriage, not a religious marriage.  God has nothing to do with it.   And God has nothing to do with the BUSINESS of baking cakes.
From your point of view.
From a Christian point of view: It's his universe and he's the one that gave me a life in it. Too many verses say "Whatsoever thou doest..." As a Christian EVERYTHING I do is God's business.
Why should your point of view be codified in law with no respect to the Christian?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 09:25:07 pm by Idaho_Cowboy »
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Offline bolobaby

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We need some quid pro quo here. Find some gay artists (shouldn't be hard) and insist they produce Christian themed artwork where sinners are punished and the righteous are elevated.
How to lose credibility while posting:
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Offline INVAR

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It's a civil marriage, not a religious marriage.  God has nothing to do with it.   And God has nothing to do with the BUSINESS of baking cakes.

God has EVERYTHING to do with what I choose to do in life - INCLUDING MY BUSINESS.

I frankly do not give a damn what you or anyone else thinks I should do in terms of whom you demand I serve.  I serve those I decide to serve in the manner in which I am using my talents while being obedient to His Word.

If you want to use the government to force us to labor for that which is an abomination, you become nothing but a tyrant yourself - and tyrants need to be resisted and refused.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Jazzhead

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God has EVERYTHING to do with what I choose to do in life - INCLUDING MY BUSINESS.

I frankly do not give a damn what you or anyone else thinks I should do in terms of whom you demand I serve.  I serve those I decide to serve in the manner in which I am using my talents while being obedient to His Word.

If you want to use the government to force us to labor for that which is an abomination, you become nothing but a tyrant yourself - and tyrants need to be resisted and refused.

I don't care who you serve or don't serve.   Frankly,  as long as you were polite about it,  I'd react to your refusal of service by finding another vendor.  And that's how most of these potential kerfluffles are handled in the real world.   There's always another baker, or wedding planner,  quite willing to take one's money.

Of course, since I'm a straight white male,  I've never suffered the indignities of arbitrary discrimination.   If I had to deal all my life with bigots and religious know-it-alls,  perhaps I'd be inclined to stand up for my rights and tell that baker to sod off and complain to the government.   All this stuff really does is line the pockets of lawyers.  But again, as one who's never suffered discrimination, that's easy for me to say.     
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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I don't care who you serve or don't serve.   Frankly,  as long as you were polite about it,  I'd react to your refusal of service by finding another vendor.  And that's how most of these potential kerfluffles are handled in the real world.   There's always another baker, or wedding planner,  quite willing to take one's money.
 
See problem solved no government needed.  :laugh:
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Crazy not to have a corporation today to protect your personal finances from a lawsuit.

You don't carry any business liability insurance? I'm not sure what you do but everyone should carry some liability and  errors and ommisions insurance etc if they run a business whether it's white or blue collar.

Plus we have umbrella policies out the wazhoo.

@roamer_1

Excellent advice @mirraflake

HonestJohn

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From your point of view.
From a Christian point of view: It's his universe and he's the one that gave me a life in it. Too many verses say "Whatsoever thou doest..." As a Christian EVERYTHING I do is God's business.
Why should your point of view be codified in law with no respect to the Christian?

And vice versa.  Why should the 'Christian's' POV take precedence?

As you degrade another's beliefs by labeling them just a POV... so too will your beliefs be belittled.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 10:46:02 pm by HonestJohn »

HonestJohn

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We need some quid pro quo here. Find some gay artists (shouldn't be hard) and insist they produce Christian themed artwork where sinners are punished and the righteous are elevated.

Wasn't that done for the Sistene Chapel?

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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And vice versa.  Why should the 'Christian's' POV take precedence?

As you degrade another's beliefs by labeling them just a POV... so too will your beliefs be belittled.
How about that only one of those uses the government to force people to use their labor hours against their will.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline TomSea

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The Founders were overwhelmingly Christian;

John Adams:

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    “We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”

In an October 13, 1789 address to the military, he said:

    "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, he said

    "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity"

http://www.faithofourfathers.net/johnadams.html

I know one can find quotes too where some of the FFs, Founding Fathers may have been leery of Christianity.  But I do believe we were found on Christian principles, I think a lot more can be found on this.

Again, it sounds a bit like progressivism to just lump all belief systems as one.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 12:56:11 am by TomSea »

Online roamer_1

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And vice versa.  Why should the 'Christian's' POV take precedence?

As you degrade another's beliefs by labeling them just a POV... so too will your beliefs be belittled.

Why indeed. I guess moral relativism has done it's job when such a question is asked on a conservative site.

HonestJohn

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Why indeed. I guess moral relativism has done it's job when such a question is asked on a conservative site.

Moral relativism has nothing to do with this.  This is a knock on behavior.  One can easily believe that the Enlightenment that produced the philosphy governing our nations to be the best... and still knock the behavior that mocks and degrades others for their beliefs.

At one point, we'd actually argue how our values are the best.  Now, it's a knee-jerk "how dare you criticize my position" cry.


Offline Jazzhead

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From your point of view.
It's not my point of view, it's a fact - gay marriage is entirely secular, it's a civil contract.   It has no religious connotations whatsoever.

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From a Christian point of view: It's his universe and he's the one that gave me a life in it. Too many verses say "Whatsoever thou doest..." As a Christian EVERYTHING I do is God's business.
Why should your point of view be codified in law with no respect to the Christian?

I respect anyone's Christian faith.   Practice it in your own life proudly.  But, you see,  when you operate a business, you're supposed to conform to the requirements of the civil law.   The civil law, after all,  bestows protection on your business, and affords you the advantages of an ordered environment in which to profit from your endeavors.   And one of the simple requirements of the civil law is you don't discriminate arbitrarily,  whether you cite your "religion" as justification or otherwise.

Practice your faith but don't impose it on others.   Especially by humiliating your customers just for being who they are,  and for what?   For the "sin" of seeking the very services you said you'd provide?   
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 02:34:31 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Offline DB

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The “pure” libertarian in me (and note the small “l”) and one who supports individual liberty says that a private business owner should be able to choose who they provide services to or not; or who they sell their wares to or not; or who to hire or not hire for employment; and for whatever reason what so ever and without any government interference. 

Sounds good doesn’t it?  Perhaps in principle. But practice, in reality, sometimes not so much – and it might all depend on if you are the one choosing to discriminate or if you are the one being discriminated against.

One has to understand that in that scenario, of discrimination based on religious or political beliefs or personal prejudices - “sometimes you’re the windshield, and sometimes you’re the bug”.

I get that a conservative Christian business owner would not want to provide services to a gay couple for a gay marriage ceremony – forced to bake the cake, forced to take the photographs, forced to DJ or perform the music, forced to produce the wedding invitations and I would say that in principle that they shouldn’t be forced to do so. No one should be forced to go against their deeply held religious or other convictions.

And I also get how it would be offensive for example to force, for example a Jewish baker (and I suspect many others) to be forced to decorate a cake for a “Happy Birth Adolph Hitler” celebration. I sure wouldn’t want to be forced to do that and I am neither Jewish or a Christian.

But let’s say a Christian couple goes to a very popular baker in town for a very traditional wedding cake with the traditional bride and groom topping and perhaps also a traditional Bible verse or “Marriage Is Only Ordained By God” written on it and the baker who is an Atheist tells them, “I just don’t do that sort of traditional type of wedding cake and I won’t decorate it with any Bible verses because I don’t believe in God”. 

Conversely let’s say I’m a devout Evangelical Christian baker and a Catholic or a Mormon or a Muslim or a 7th Day Adventist or an Atheist couple wants me to bake their wedding cake and I refuse because I think Catholicism and Mormonism and Islam and 7th Day Adventists are all “cults” and that Atheists shouldn’t be allowed to get married.

Let’s say that I am a politically conservative owner of a bakery and one day a member of a BLM group wants me to bake a cake with the slogan “Black Lives Matter” or an another group wants me to bake a cake decorated with “Trump Is Not My President” on it. 

Let’s say I am a politically liberal owner of a bakery and one day a Trump supporter wants me to bake a cake with a “TRUMP WON! MAGA! Suck It Up Libs!” with a Pepe The Frog on it.

Let’s say I’m a young attractive single woman and my car breaks down.  I get on my smart phone and find a towing company and call them.  The tow truck operator shows up and he is a devout Muslim and refuses to tow my car because 1) I’m a single woman driving a car and or driving without a male relative and 2) I’m wearing a skimpy bikini top and very short shorts and he finds this manner of dress offensive to his religious beliefs and after showing up refuses to tow my car. 

Let’s say that I’m a very conservative Christian tow truck operator who is likewise offended by her clothing or lack thereof and also the “Hillary For President” and “NARAL” and a “Darwin Fish” bumper sticker on her car and after showing up refuses to tow her car.

Let’s say I’m a Conservative Orthodox Jew who runs a kosher catering company and I get a call to cater an event, provide kosher foods for a Messianic Jewish group and I refuse based on my belief that these people are not really Jews and are making a mockery of “real” Judaism.

Let’s say I own a printing/calligraphy shop and I’m a Wiccan/Pagan and one day a Christian comes in and wants me to produce flyers for her church group that says Halloween is Evil and Pagan, should be banned/outlawed and has no place in America and people who celebrate any Pagan holidays are going straight to Hell!

Let’s say I own an Evangelical Christian Book and Gift store and a Catholic priest walks in one day looking for a gift or a book for the child of a friend or relative and I refuse to serve him because perhaps I think that all Catholic priests are pedophiles.

Let’s say I own a coffee shop and I am an animal rights activist and am also anti-gun and I don’t allow people who wear camo style or hunting type clothing to come in and I put a sign on my door that says that guns (open or CC even if allowed by law) or knives are not allowed in my shop.
 
Let’s say that I am a gay person who owns an architectural/interior design firm and I’m looking to hire someone for a job and I receive a resume from someone who attended a very conservative Christian college that teaches that homosexuality is a sin that should be a punishable crime and advocated conversion therapy and all her prior work experience has been working for Christian organizations with the same POV and although she seems otherwise qualified for the job, I refuse to hire her because I just don’t think she would be a good fit for my company where I and many other gays are working.

Likewise, let’s say I am a devout Christian and the owner of a company where I and nearly all the employees are also Christians and I pass on an applicant who is otherwise very qualified for the job but previously worked for an Atheist org and she comes to her interview with purple hair and with many tattoos and piercings and wearing a Pentagram neckless and I don’t think she would be a good fit.

Let’s say that own a home improvement company and either because of my religious beliefs or just my personal prejudices, I don’t believe in “mixed marriages” and one day I go to the home of a white woman married to a black man or visa versa, who are wanting to get a quote from me to build a new deck on their house and I either refuse to give them a quote or I try to gouge them on the price or do a lousy job because I don’t like their mixed marriage and their “mulatto” children.

Let’s say that I’m an Evangelical Christian belonging to one of those prosperity mega churches and I own a law firm or an insurance brokerage firm. While my business is not a religious org and is not advertised as only serving only the “Christian” community and I don’t hire based on a religious litmus test, I hand out to all employees copies of Joel Osteen’s latest book which I strongly “encourage” everyone to read in their “spare time”, and every morning before work I hold and lead prayer meetings and at lunchtime, a Christian book or Bible study group which are not “mandatory”. However, I do make note of who attends and who doesn’t, who belongs to my church and who doesn’t and those who do not participate just don’t get the same promotion opportunities or the same raises or fair performance evaluations as those who do. (FWIW, I once for a short time, worked at a law firm that did exactly that and had a friend who worked at an insurance brokerage firm that did the same).

Let’s say that I own an apartment complex and I choose not to rent to Blacks, Latinos, Asians and single people who in my “judgement” “might” be gay, or rent to someone with a physical disability such as a blind person or a couple with a child who has Downs Syndrome.

Suppose I go into an upscale clothing and jewelry store and am told by the owner that I can’t shop there because I’m too fat and not attractive enough to be one of their customers. 

I have, and was born with natural red hair. Suppose I walk into a small hair studio one day and the owner/hair dresser tells me that she believes that “gingers” have no soul and are “evil”. I’d probably laugh it off as a joke (hopefully) or if not, I’d go somewhere else to get my hair done, I doubt I would sue.

My point is that if you believe that a business owner has the right to discriminate based on their religious or political or any other beliefs or at their whim and that the government should not interfere what so ever with their decisions, and I’m not saying that perhaps they shouldn’t be able to, then also don’t complain when you are on the receiving end of the discrimination.

In a perfect world where people use common sense, the government would stay completely out of as far as privately owned business go and not enforce rules against some belief systems and not against others and let the free market decide.

I also tend to believe that a business that does not discriminate and provides quality goods and services to all paying customers and hires the best, brightest and most qualified people regardless of their race, orientation, religion, political views, etc., assuming that they and their employees also don’t discriminate or force their POV on others, is in a free market, likely going to be the most successful over time.

FWIW, personally, I wouldn’t patronize any business that had a sign on their business door saying  – “Gays Not Welcome Here”, “Blacks Not Welcome Here”, We Don’t Serve White People”, “Only Real Christians Are Welcomed Here” or “We Don’t Serve Christians” or “We Don’t Serve Conservatives or Liberals”or ….

But also imagine what would happen, what our society would be like (and was like not so long ago) if any business that publicly advertises for services and for customers, could also arbitrarily discriminate against you based on your race, ethnicity, religion, etc….or at their whim.

As I said, in that scenario, “sometimes you’re the windshield, and sometimes you’re the bug” and nobody really wants to be the bug.

Liberty has consequences. I'll gladly accept those consequences to have liberty. It isn't free. In short liberty means the right to make the "wrong" choice for ones self or you really don't have liberty at all.

geronl

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It should be illegal to force people to participate in a wedding ceremony, period.

Next thing you know churches will have to host marriages, guests won't have a choice but to show up and participate in sodomy if these liberals keep getting their way.

Besides there is no Constitutional right to be completely free of "discrimination" in everything. We still have freedom in this country and that entails the freedom to NOT associate with people we do not want to associate with.

When a restaurant owner said he would ban Republicans, I don't remember lawsuits being filed.

geronl

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I respect anyone's Christian faith.   Practice it in your own life proudly.  But, you see,  when you operate a business, you're supposed to conform to the requirements of the civil law. 

A private business, on private property. Government is "public", yet it is free to discriminate. Strange.

Your view is the absence of freedom.

geronl

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Gay bakers will never be forced to bake a Christian-themed cake, Muslims won't be forced to bake a gay cake.

When that one case in Colorado was going on, the office and person who brought the lawsuit admitted they would not file discrimination lawsuits against gays and Muslims for doing the same thing.

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Practice your faith but don't impose it on others.   Especially by humiliating your customers just for being who they are,  and for what?   For the "sin" of seeking the very services you said you'd provide?   

How the hell does refusing service to celebrate a practice I find an abomination "imposing" my religion on others?  PRACTICING my faith means I DO NOT GIVE INTO providing services that celebrate, acknowledge or affirm that which is an evil practice.

Should we be forced to make DVD covers and commercials for pornographers simply because we provide video editing services?

You're coddling snowflakes if you think refusing services to those engaged in promoting such practices is 'humiliating them'. 

If I'm a butcher, and I'm Muslim or Jewish and someone comes in with a pig for me to butcher - am I imposing my religion on the customer because I refuse their request for service?

I'd love to see that attempt run though the courts and note the weighted balances of Justice.

Of course none of these people from the Gay mafia would dare to go to a Muslim business to attempt to get them to celebrate their behavior and engender lawsuits when rebuffed.

Because they will be rightfully told to pound sand, and if that is not enough - the Muslims would do that which Christians will not do if efforts to force compliance were attempted on them.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775