Author Topic: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment  (Read 2399 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online mystery-ak

  • Owner
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 386,117
  • Let's Go Brandon!
Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« on: December 05, 2016, 06:05:19 pm »
 Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment

Delay tactics could sap momentum from the president's first 100 days. 'What goes around comes around,' one lawmaker says.

By Burgess Everett and Elana Schor

12/05/16 05:06 AM EST

Senate Democrats are preparing to put Donald Trump’s Cabinet picks through a grinding confirmation process, weighing delay tactics that could eat up weeks of the Senate calendar and hamper his first 100 days in office.

Multiple Democratic senators told POLITICO in interviews last week that after watching Republicans sit on Merrick Garland’s nomination to the Supreme Court for nearly a year, they’re in no mood to fast-track Trump’s selections.

But it’s not just about exacting revenge.

more
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-cabinet-democrats-senate-232136
Proud Supporter of Tunnel to Towers
Support the USO
Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
-Matthew 6:34

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 08:35:59 pm »
But it’s not just about exacting revenge.

Of course it is.

Offline Night Hides Not

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Gender: Male
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2016, 08:52:04 pm »
Senator McConnell, the ball's in your court.
You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.

1 John 3:18: Let us love not in word or speech, but in truth and action.

Wingnut

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2016, 08:56:14 pm »
Senator McConnell, the ball's in your court.

He has no balls.  So any in his court would be a net sum gain.

HonestJohn

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2016, 12:14:10 am »
Both sides ought to remember the Golden Rule.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

---

In this particular case, the Republicans are going to get just that. 

In the election, Democrats got the "We won, get over it" returned back unto them.

---

In the second case, if we criticized Obama for saying that, then we ought to be criticizing Trump for the same.

In the first case, if we thought it appropriate to delay hearings, then we ought to be okay with a political party delaying nominations.

Anything else is hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 12:15:05 am by HonestJohn »

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,570
  • Gender: Female
  • WE are NOT ok!
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2016, 12:33:04 am »
Both sides ought to remember the Golden Rule.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

---

In this particular case, the Republicans are going to get just that. 

In the election, Democrats got the "We won, get over it" returned back unto them.

---

In the second case, if we criticized Obama for saying that, then we ought to be criticizing Trump for the same.

In the first case, if we thought it appropriate to delay hearings, then we ought to be okay with a political party delaying nominations.

Anything else is hypocrisy.

Both sides need to remember that the justices are supposed to rule according to the Constitution and not what is politically correct, nor according to the will of the people.  The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, not public opinion or popularity. 

It is entirely appropriate to delay the hearings and nominations as the Constitution does not set forth a time frame, it only states in Article II, Section 2: “[The President] shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint…Judges of the Supreme Court.” Nor does does the Constitution stipulate the number of justices that must serve.  This is why it was so very important for the GOP to maintain their majority in the Senate ... the Senate has the final say as to who is appointed to the bench.  There is no demand by the Constitution that a ruling cannot be made with 8 justices or even 6 justices.    There have been bills passed related to this issue, but to the best of my knowledge, no amendment to the Constitution has been ratified as to the number of justices nor the time frame in which a justice must be replaced.

Trump will be sworn in soon and we have 4 years to appoint and nominate justice(s).  Time right now is on our side.
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,340
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2016, 12:57:41 am »
The Rats can try to delay appointments for a short time frame and then they will be voted on. After that the Rats will really regret doing away with the filibuster.

We no longer have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise. obama ended all that along with his lap dog reid. Now it's more of a semi-parlimentary system. The minority really won't have much of a say in anything and if the Pubs actually start producing results 2018 should add to their control of both houses.

Everything obama did and the Rats that went along with him will be undone. They have nobody to blame but themselves. The last thing to go will be the filibuster of SCOTUS nominations and it will be ended.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,570
  • Gender: Female
  • WE are NOT ok!
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2016, 01:22:09 am »
The Rats can try to delay appointments for a short time frame and then they will be voted on. After that the Rats will really regret doing away with the filibuster.

We no longer have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise. obama ended all that along with his lap dog reid. Now it's more of a semi-parlimentary system. The minority really won't have much of a say in anything and if the Pubs actually start producing results 2018 should add to their control of both houses.

Everything obama did and the Rats that went along with him will be undone. They have nobody to blame but themselves. The last thing to go will be the filibuster of SCOTUS nominations and it will be ended.

To an extent you are correct; unfortunately the problem(s) still lie within the Senate RINO team including their leader, McConnell.  McConnell tends to side with the liberals and their agenda and has done very little in the way of promoting or siding with members of his own party.  Any way you cut it, Trump is still a liberal and always will be...he and McConnell should get along just fine, but I don't expect the two of them to miraculously head in a conservative direction because they have an 'R' next to their name. 
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,340
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2016, 01:40:32 am »
To an extent you are correct; unfortunately the problem(s) still lie within the Senate RINO team including their leader, McConnell.  McConnell tends to side with the liberals and their agenda and has done very little in the way of promoting or siding with members of his own party.  Any way you cut it, Trump is still a liberal and always will be...he and McConnell should get along just fine, but I don't expect the two of them to miraculously head in a conservative direction because they have an 'R' next to their name.

I don't disagree with your assessment of McConnell. Although I will give him credit that after obamacare no other major legislation was passed. I think though that the liberal Pubs McConnell, Hatch, McCain, etc., aren't so dumb that they will support the Rats over Trump. They can't help but remember how the Rats treated them.

Trump has been a bit of a surprise to me. I like his Cabinet picks so far and he really seems committed to things he campaigned on. I'm especially encouraged by how he's structured the organization. The dept heads are all strong individuals many from outside govt and I don't believe any academics yet. It looks like they will have a free hand and it will be Pence who will deal with details. Pence is not a liberal. Bannon is not a liberal. Preibus is probably best described as a moderate.

I know I will be disappointed with some things, but if we can actually get some big things done like fixing health insurance, fixing illegal immigration, tax reform, and get conservative-activist judges appointed I'll be very happy.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,567
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2016, 01:41:12 am »
.../
We no longer have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise. ../

We were never meant to have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise.  Senators were originally elected by the State governments--giving each State a direct voice in the Federal Government.  The 17th amendment changed that original intent to a direct vote by the people.

Big mistake, IMHO.

Wingnut

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2016, 01:53:43 am »


The nice thing about the DDOS was not having to read your posts.

Offline bilo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,340
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2016, 01:54:12 am »
We were never meant to have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise.  Senators were originally elected by the State governments--giving each State a direct voice in the Federal Government.  The 17th amendment changed that original intent to a direct vote by the people.

Big mistake, IMHO.

You're wrong about this. The Senate was designed with the House of Lords in mind. They were supposed to be the body that was not governed by the mob mentality. You're right that they were supposed to represent their State's interests and being picked by their State legislatures they were not to be loyal to any national party. So because they were originally removed from direct election by the people of a State and because their loyalty was to their State and not a national party they were intended to be more circumspect in their judgement and support of popular legislation. 
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Oceander

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2016, 02:08:02 am »
That's their prerogative; however, they may find that the political capital they spend is a little the worse for wear. 

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,567
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2016, 02:13:49 am »
You're wrong about this. The Senate was designed with the House of Lords in mind.

The 17th Amendment established the popular election of United States Senators by the people of the states. The amendment supersedes Article I, §3, Clauses 1 and 2 of the Constitution, under which senators were elected by state legislatures.

The original intent was to give state governments a direct voice and vote in the Federal Government.  The House of Representatives, with elections held every two years, was designed to be the people's direct voice in the Federal Government.

The original design was brilliant.

Oceander

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2016, 06:48:27 am »
You're wrong about this. The Senate was designed with the House of Lords in mind. They were supposed to be the body that was not governed by the mob mentality. You're right that they were supposed to represent their State's interests and being picked by their State legislatures they were not to be loyal to any national party. So because they were originally removed from direct election by the people of a State and because their loyalty was to their State and not a national party they were intended to be more circumspect in their judgement and support of popular legislation. 

The 17th Amendment established the popular election of United States Senators by the people of the states. The amendment supersedes Article I, §3, Clauses 1 and 2 of the Constitution, under which senators were elected by state legislatures.

The original intent was to give state governments a direct voice and vote in the Federal Government.  The House of Representatives, with elections held every two years, was designed to be the people's direct voice in the Federal Government.

The original design was brilliant.

@bilo
@Right_in_Virginia

You're both arguing to the same conclusion.  Whether the inspiration was the House of Lords or not, the purpose of the Senate was to be a counterbalance to the presumed populism (and potential demagoguery) of the House by, in part, having the Senators be beholden to a different but not totally alien constituency, and to act in the name of the state as a whole and not merely of one congressional district. The Senate was supposed to be where the cooler heads would prevail.  A sort of ersatz nobility to counterbalance the hotheaded plebes in the House. 

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2016, 10:11:42 am »
I'm all for eliminating the 17th, although IMO it will never happen, just like the gold standard and other right wing/libertarian pipe dreams.


I do think you should read up on the history of why/how Senators were chosen and why the 17th was passed. it's not as cut and dry as people think. A lot of state legislatures actually ended up sending nobody to the Senate because they were dead-locked.

Wingnut

  • Guest

HonestJohn

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2016, 04:24:01 pm »
We were never meant to have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise.  Senators were originally elected by the State governments--giving each State a direct voice in the Federal Government.  The 17th amendment changed that original intent to a direct vote by the people.

Big mistake, IMHO.

Which means they were not to have loyal to a party, but to their state.  All of their state.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2016, 04:33:04 pm »
Which means they were not to have loyal to a party, but to their state.  All of their state.


Don't you think they'd just be interesting in sending pork back to their state legislatures and states if they were chosen by legislatures?

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2016, 04:53:46 pm »

Don't you think they'd just be interesting in sending pork back to their state legislatures and states if they were chosen by legislatures?

Of course they would.  "Ending the 17th" is one of those silly magic pills that "conservatives" of a certain stripe like to bring up as a cure-all.  The idea that a state legislature's Senate selection would be any less a tool of special interests is laughable.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2016, 04:58:03 pm »
Of course they would.  "Ending the 17th" is one of those silly magic pills that "conservatives" of a certain stripe like to bring up as a cure-all.  The idea that a state legislature's Senate selection would be any less a tool of special interests is laughable.


I live in MA, and I'm wondering about the MA general court choosing Senators. They'd probably choose the same losers we have now, Pocahontas and the other guy, forget his name. Not much change but neither would be beholden to the voters at all if they were chosen by the GC.


We'd still get the Turtle, Dinghy Harry, and all the other losers. What would change exactly? I don't get it.

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2016, 05:31:02 pm »
We'd still get the Turtle, Dinghy Harry, and all the other losers. What would change exactly? I don't get it.

Somehow or other they seem to think that the state legislatures will do a better job of holding the senators accountable, and maybe that their tenures will be reduced.

This analysis (https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41545.pdf) shows that the assumption is probably not correct.  Senate tenures have been increasing at about the same rate since before the 17th Amendment passed. 

IMO there are a couple of reasons for this. 

First, voters are not all that engaged.  In aggregate they're not particularly inclined to use their votes as a means of holding Senators accountable, and thus tenures have always tended to increase.

Second, the rise of the Professional Politicians: people who have basically never held jobs outside of politics and who therefore have an electoral advantage in both time and organization over those who have to choose between their day job and the demands of an election.

Theoretically, repealing the 17th Amendment would mitigate the advantages of professional politicians by making it easier for people of demonstrated real-world ability to be considered for and appointed to the Senate.  In practice, however, the professional politician still has the advantage -- perhaps even a greater advantage -- because he has the time to lobby for his position. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 05:32:08 pm by r9etb »

HonestJohn

  • Guest
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2016, 11:37:28 pm »
Of course they would.  "Ending the 17th" is one of those silly magic pills that "conservatives" of a certain stripe like to bring up as a cure-all.  The idea that a state legislature's Senate selection would be any less a tool of special interests is laughable.

What it would do is make the Senators far more interested in pleasing their state governments.  And with Senators on a 6-year election cycle, this would mean that... should the party in charge of the state government change, the Senator would find themselves placing the welfare of their state over their party.

And that would go a long way in reducing political parties (and their politics) as the motivator for politicians.

Offline Ghost Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,424
  • Gender: Male
  • Not an actual picture of me
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2016, 12:18:11 am »
We were never meant to have a Senate that "cools things down" and finds compromise.  Senators were originally elected by the State governments--giving each State a direct voice in the Federal Government.  The 17th amendment changed that original intent to a direct vote by the people.

Big mistake, IMHO.

So, you disagree with George Washington then?

In selecting an appropriate visual symbol of the Senate in its founding period, one might consider an anchor, a fence, or a saucer. Writing to Thomas Jefferson, who had been out of the country during the Constitutional Convention, James Madison explained that the Constitution's framers considered the Senate to be the great "anchor" of the government. To the framers themselves, Madison explained that the Senate would be a "necessary fence" against the "fickleness and passion" that tended to influence the attitudes of the general public and members of the House of Representatives. George Washington is said to have told Jefferson that the framers had created the Senate to "cool" House legislation just as a saucer was used to cool hot tea.
Let it burn.

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Democrats to give Trump Cabinet picks the Garland treatment
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2016, 03:46:14 pm »
What it would do is make the Senators far more interested in pleasing their state governments.  And with Senators on a 6-year election cycle, this would mean that... should the party in charge of the state government change, the Senator would find themselves placing the welfare of their state over their party.

No, it wouldn't.  The Senator may well place the welfare of the state party over the national party, but that's about the extent of it.