Ongoing Prayer Request for Battered Wife with Homicidal Hubby

[Restored]

Quix

That behavior sounds normal in these cases.
If my history is any indicator:
If he dies, she will not speak to you because you criticized her sainted husband. He only acted out because he had health issues and he never would have done anything to hurt her if he was well. IIWM I'd take some flowers to his grave if I wanted to keep the relationship.
If he survives, same prior health issues as the sole cause but now they know how to fix him so all problems are gone. People need to forgive and forget. Everyone has a hidden struggle so you shouldn't judge. If only people would just believe in her, things would get better.

BTDT. My sister could go into a Methodist Pastors Conference and find the only one-armed biker on parole there. #ThingsMyFatherSaid

[Quix]

Quix

That behavior sounds normal in these cases.
If my history is any indicator:
If he dies, she will not speak to you because you criticized her sainted husband. He only acted out because he had health issues and he never would have done anything to hurt her if he was well. IIWM I'd take some flowers to his grave if I wanted to keep the relationship.
If he survives, same prior health issues as the sole cause but now they know how to fix him so all problems are gone. People need to forgive and forget. Everyone has a hidden struggle so you shouldn't judge. If only people would just believe in her, things would get better.

BTDT. My sister could go into a Methodist Pastors Conference and find the only one-armed biker on parole there. #ThingsMyFatherSaid

ABSOLUTELY INDEED It is an incredible pattern. Police typically say it takes 7 calls to visit a battering home before a wife will truly leave.

G's case is particularly tenacious. Not sure why . . . incredibly tenacious set of utterly self-destructive dysfunctions and sense of worthlessness alternating with, of course, rage, herself.

And, though she does real well for weeks or more at a time . . . as has been true in every case of battering I've known--she can be incredibly "mouthy." And very castrating so . . . which doesn't help a man who was already impotent (unknown to her) before marriage.

Sigh.

Thanks for your kind reply.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Thanks for the update @Quix
I'll keep praying.

[Quix]

Thanks for the update @Quix
I'll keep praying.

Much appreciated.

I'll update when I get more info.

Just leaving her to stew in her own juice at the moment.

If past behavior is any clue, she'll get in touch when she's desperate enough for a solid, sane, caring perspective.

[Idiot]

SOOOO glad GOPBR is back! Sigh!

@Smokin Joe
@Freya

THANKS TONS FOR THE PRAYERS.

Things got greatly more complicated . . . and insane . . . so much so . . . others were not the only ones wondering where truth and fiction started and stopped.

I've never caught her in a lie to me though I know she's lied to police about hubby's battering.

And, I have talked to pastors and police at other times enough to know that the abuse has been painfully real and physically damaging to a horrible degree.

Anyway--hubby in jail suffered a burst aneurysm on/in his heart IIRC and supposedly has a few more that will need later treatment.

So, OF COURSE . . . she rushed to his side--200 miles or so away at Hosp he was lifeflighted to . . . with plans to move her stuff back to his home yada yada yada.

I read her the riot act up one side and down the other.

She's been silent for several days.

I did call the hospital and verified that hubby is there in ICU.

She knows that I don't relate well to her silence in such situations . . . she tends to get silent when she doesn't like what I'm apt to say or when she's making crappy choices, doing crappy things.

Anyway--her being raped routinely by step-dad from toddler-hood on up--I really do believe that, actually--has left her with tons of ATTACHMENT DISORDER scars, dynamics, dysfunctions, brain damage. She HAS made LOT of progress over the last 12 years but there is tons more to make before she's out of the woods.

And I don't know that optimally sane is very close at hand, at all.

Sigh.

Thanks BIG for the prayers.

I don't know of a prayer ping list. Am willing to start one if folks want to be on it. Just let me know.

THX THX.


Now to find out what happened to GOPBR!!!!

Add me to your prayer ping list.  I added my prayers for your friend as well. 

[Gefn]

Thanks for the update @Quix
I'll keep praying.

Me too.

[Neverdul]

OK. Here are my 2 cents. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

First of all, and you are probably not going to like to hear this as I think you are a very kind and good hearted person, but are perhaps also a bit gullible, but FWIW not all people you know on the “net”, no matter how long you have known them on the “net”, are necessarily telling you the truth.

See:

Munchausen by Internet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_by_Internet

A few things that raises some alarms are:

“Raped from Toddlerhood” – While it is quite possible that she was sexually abused by her step-father from the time she was a toddler, a “toddler” – a 1 to 2-year-old, while she would have suffered emotional damage, it is also likely that wouldn’t have any direct memory of such at that age.  Was her step-father ever charged or arrested for his crimes? Who told her she was raped as a toddler? Is this one of those “recovered memory” deals?

“He's tried to kill her about 7+ times” – he must not have been trying too hard. I’m sorry and not to make light of the subject of domestic abuse that is all too real, but how does someone survive 7+ murder attempts? That IMO just doesn’t quite pass the smell test.

“Policeman says: "OK. We know your situation. That's it. He's going to jail."” – No police officer is going to arrest someone under the circumstances as you described even if there were past arrests for her husband for domestic violence.  A police officer who just happened to drive by a woman walking alone in the dark and sees her “damaged face” and she only has to give the officer her name and right away he
“knows her situation” and goes and arrests her husband? No way that happened as described.

“Police say they will have him on a 30 day restraining order to not be near her”. - That’s not how restraining orders work. The police, live alone one police officer, is not able to file a restraining order in and of themselves and that quickly - that requires a court order and she would have to file for one. However, “if” a current criminal case is pending, the district attorney may request or the judge may order a protection order for the victim of the crime from the defendant or perpetrator of the crime. But again, if she told the officer that she was “OK” and denied that her husband had beaten her, they would have no grounds to arrest him unless there were other witnesses, witnesses who observed what happened and who had contacted the police and were willing to testify.

Things got greatly more complicated . . . and insane . . . so much so . . . others were not the only ones wondering where truth and fiction started and stopped.

I've never caught her in a lie to me though I know she's lied to police about hubby's battering.

And, I have talked to pastors and police at other times enough to know that the abuse has been painfully real and physically damaging to a horrible degree.

Anyway--hubby in jail suffered a burst aneurysm on/in his heart IIRC and supposedly has a few more that will need later treatment.

So, OF COURSE . . . she rushed to his side--200 miles or so away at Hosp he was lifeflighted to . . . with plans to move her stuff back to his home yada yada yada.

IMO she’s a drama queen and sounds like a sociopath and IMO she is playing you and others for attention and sympathy. Don’t’ fall for it and I would sincerely advise you to cut off all contact with her. And FWIW I know the type.

I have a close family member who over the years has claimed to have been abused and raped numerous times, once as a teenager by a mystery man who was supposedly stalking her but was never found (the numerous inconsistencies in her story led the police and me and my husband to believe she was lying) and then by 3 of her 4 ex-husbands and allegedly forced into prostitution by another ex which I learned later was a complete lie. And she’s also been “diagnosed” with a fatal and inoperable brain tumor that miraculously disappeared and has also has allegedly been suffering from an extremely rare form of leukemia for the last 15+ years and she keeps going in and out of “remission”. Funny thing is that when her sister or brother or I am experiencing good things in our lives, suddenly she gets “sick” again.

One time she told me that she had just gotten out of the hospital for yet another bone marrow transplant, I think her supposed 4th (and curiously she never told anyone in her family  or even her then husband at the time, that she was in the hospital, only after the “fact”, she even said it was done out-patient and some friend who no one had ever heard of before drove her to the hospital) and then one day she told me that her doctor told her she needed to relax and unwind after her exhausting chemo and bone marrow transplant (and FWIW, for someone supposedly so sick, she never lost any hair and actually gained weight) so with her doctor’s supposed advice and consent, she was going that weekend to a big outdoor music festival and was asking me to babysit her youngest kid.  Having known two people with actual leukemia and them having undergone bone marrow transplants, the very last thing any doctor would advise a leukemia patient who had just under gone a bone marrow transplant is going into a big crowd.

She also told me that her medical records had been hacked and because she had been undergoing experimental fetal stem cell treatment, she was being harassed and had received death threats by some pro-lifers who were responsible for the hack. The interesting thing was that her “story” was nearly verbatim of a recent storyline on the TV show Law & Order SVU.

Oh and she was also supposedly diagnosed with a seizure disorder but her seizures only seemed to happen, much like her falling out of remission, when she wasn’t the center of attention. 
 
She also claimed when her youngest son was a baby, the he also had seizures. 9-11 was often called, numerous trips to the ER, many tests including several EKG’s and CAT scans were done on him and nothing was ever found to be wrong with him, not to mention that she was the only one who ever witnessed any of her son’s seizures. I was at the hospital one time when her son had been admitted for a “severe seizure”. The neurologists came in while I was there but his mother had left to get something to eat and he asked me if I or anyone else in the family had ever witnessed any of her son’s seizures first hand and then asked me other questions about her and finally asked if I was familiar with Munchausen By Proxy.

Funny, once her son got older, once he was able to talk, his “seizures” suddenly stopped.

IMO your “friend” may be in need of prayers but more importantly she is also in need of psychiatric help. And you continuing to allow you to manipulate your emotions, no matter how well intentioned it may be, is only allowing her to continue with her manipulation of you and what I think is her mental illness.

And FWIW my family finally cut off contact with my sociopathic relative after catching her in so many lies and manipulations and manufactured dramas and we are much happier and saner ourselves for doing so.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

OK. Here are my 2 cents. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

I'm no expert on any of this, but I can tell you I've had experience with folks who were good at cooking up some "just so" stories of the kind that tending to peg the built in BS detector.

I've also known people who were horrible about relaying the details of a situation. People are funny.

[Quix]

THANKS MUCH for your meaty reply . . . My responses below interspersed in bold and blue:

OK. Here are my 2 cents. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

First of all, and you are probably not going to like to hear this as I think you are a very kind and good hearted person, but are perhaps also a bit gullible, but FWIW not all people you know on the “net”, no matter how long you have known them on the “net”, are necessarily telling you the truth.

See:

Munchausen by Internet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_by_Internet

1. Certainly agree--about many not telling the absolute truth. There's always been room to wonder about her narrative . . . it was . . . soooo . . . 'out there' in a list of ways . . . with repeated grasps of defeat from the jaws of victory.

2. HOWEVER, I have talked with  4-6 folks in that small town--pastors, MD/medical types, church members AND police. Anything I've ever checked on, that she's asserted has been confirmed by them.

3. There is, however, a kind of major collaborative fiction effort on the net that she purportedly was heavily involved in--which reminds some folks of her purported true life story.

4. However, sometimes truth IS stranger than fiction.

A few things that raises some alarms are:

“Raped from Toddlerhood” – While it is quite possible that she was sexually abused by her step-father from the time she was a toddler, a “toddler” – a 1 to 2-year-old, while she would have suffered emotional damage, it is also likely that wouldn’t have any direct memory of such at that age.  Was her step-father ever charged or arrested for his crimes? Who told her she was raped as a toddler? Is this one of those “recovered memory” deals?

B.1 Wellllllll, I have specific memories from each of the first 3 years of my life as we lived in different houses each year and I remembered incidents from each of those houses. I don't know that it's certain . . . but given the incidents that arose with her father when she was still in Europe and back here living with him--narratives that were related with enough intensity, emotion and immediacy, it would have been difficult, imho, to have fabricated all or even 90% of that, AT THE TIME.

B.2 Her father did seem to be an absolute worst type secret society ranking member for that rural area etc. etc. etc.

B.3 She, nearer his death, tried--purportedly--to get me to talk to him before he died with the goal of trying to talk sense into him about the dangers of hell's fires due to his evil ways, unforgiveness, broken promises, lies etc. I said I was willing and it seemingly almost happened a time or 3 but never quite got there. That can certainly be taken as a sign it was all a sham that she wanted me to talk to him. However, my best professional assessment skills at the time would have said that it was a genuine thing she wanted to have happen. I wasn't all that eager--just willing--and that may have slowed her down some on that score. He purportedly had a reputation for being really vengeful etc. etc.

B.3 It is true that I can certainly be gullible--but I'm not near totally blind and undiscerning--particularly in real time on a phone or in person and sometimes with written text.

“He's tried to kill her about 7+ times” – he must not have been trying too hard. I’m sorry and not to make light of the subject of domestic abuse that is all too real, but how does someone survive 7+ murder attempts? That IMO just doesn’t quite pass the smell test.

C.1 He's an alcoholic. She's an incredibly tough bird in a number of ways. She's quicker than he is--particularly when HE is drunk. Some time ago, she began carrying a knife in her socks or some such. And, she can fight dirty real quickly. She didn't say 7 times . . . I just sort of did a straw poll from my memory banks and it came to at least 5 and probably not more than 7 times where he was CLEARLY trying to kill her.

C.2 He may have been other times but they were less focused and more generally battering/abusive. One time, they were purportedly out at the farm and he tried to get her to eat some poison berries, acting as though they were wonderful things. She declined as not wanting them at the time but offered to make him a pie out of them. LOL.

D.1 I should say . . . It was several years before I could get much of any information out of her about much of anything. She was in Europe {I sent books and whatever to her there so I don't doubt she was where she said she was} living a more or less subsistence life on purportedly 26 or so acres raising a big garden, chickens and rabbits and living in a mostly one room concrete block dwelling she'd purportedly finished.

D.2 All those years, any drama was extremely tersely related--she just refused to give any details. 1-5 sentences was all I'd get--for several years. Slowly, she became able to behave as though and said that she trusted me more than anyone yada yada yada.


E.1 I guess I'd think that over 12 years, MUCH MORE of her narrative would have been grossly and brazenly inconsistent and glaringly false etc. than it has appeared to me, to be--if one were to hypothesize that it were mostly or all a farce.  Thanks for the link, BTW. An interesting and plausible concept. All the more so given degrees of her stress etc. I'm skeptical she'd have the mental and emotional whatever to keep such a growing, complex narrative all that consistent for all that long if it were totally or near totally fabricated.

“Policeman says: "OK. We know your situation. That's it. He's going to jail."” – No police officer is going to arrest someone under the circumstances as you described even if there were past arrests for her husband for domestic violence.  A police officer who just happened to drive by a woman walking alone in the dark and sees her “damaged face” and she only has to give the officer her name and right away he
“knows her situation” and goes and arrests her husband? No way that happened as described.

F.1 Well, I talked to the police, on the phone, within 24 hours after the incident and they seemed to confirm those details essentially as she related them. I didn't go over every detail meticulously but the general gist of what the police said to me on that call confirmed what she'd said.

“Police say they will have him on a 30 day restraining order to not be near her”. - That’s not how restraining orders work. The police, live alone one police officer, is not able to file a restraining order in and of themselves and that quickly - that requires a court order and she would have to file for one. However, “if” a current criminal case is pending, the district attorney may request or the judge may order a protection order for the victim of the crime from the defendant or perpetrator of the crime. But again, if she told the officer that she was “OK” and denied that her husband had beaten her, they would have no grounds to arrest him unless there were other witnesses, witnesses who observed what happened and who had contacted the police and were willing to testify.

G.1 Welllllllllll . . . the restraining order involved the court, of course. The police were merely relating to me what the court was expected to do. I have an alcohol counselor friend not far from that area and she has related to me that such is fairly routine and required now by state law. And there is nothing the woman can do to stop it.

G.2 This has been building for years in a small town. Initially, the police were buddies with hubby and thought he was a model Christian husband.

G.3 Gradually, as she had to seek medical care for the abuse, with the medical personnel being required by state law to report it to the police--much to her fury--it became known at the police department, among the pastors and the medical profession that the marriage involved a very abusive husband. The town is rather small, really.  I watched that progression over the last 3 or so years and talked with individuals in all the above sorts of roles off and on during that time.

IMO she’s a drama queen and sounds like a sociopath and IMO she is playing you and others for attention and sympathy. Don’t’ fall for it and I would sincerely advise you to cut off all contact with her. And FWIW I know the type.

I.1 Wellllll, that goes wholesale against my character and life-long values.

I.2 I have often watched God drop various kinds of "missions impossible" in my lap--evidently because the system and others would not deal with them or not well at all.

I.3 There can come a time when I pull back and wait for more healthy demonstration of behavioral progress before bothering much; extending/expending much time and energy--but I don't write people out of my life with very rare exceptions. They virtually have to come at me  with a meat axe every time they see me.

I have a close family member who over the years has claimed to have been abused and raped numerous times, once as a teenager by a mystery man who was supposedly stalking her but was never found (the numerous inconsistencies in her story led the police and me and my husband to believe she was lying) and then by 3 of her 4 ex-husbands and allegedly forced into prostitution by another ex which I learned later was a complete lie. And she’s also been “diagnosed” with a fatal and inoperable brain tumor that miraculously disappeared and has also has allegedly been suffering from an extremely rare form of leukemia for the last 15+ years and she keeps going in and out of “remission”. Funny thing is that when her sister or brother or I am experiencing good things in our lives, suddenly she gets “sick” again.

One time she told me that she had just gotten out of the hospital for yet another bone marrow transplant, I think her supposed 4th (and curiously she never told anyone in her family  or even her then husband at the time, that she was in the hospital, only after the “fact”, she even said it was done out-patient and some friend who no one had ever heard of before drove her to the hospital) and then one day she told me that her doctor told her she needed to relax and unwind after her exhausting chemo and bone marrow transplant (and FWIW, for someone supposedly so sick, she never lost any hair and actually gained weight) so with her doctor’s supposed advice and consent, she was going that weekend to a big outdoor music festival and was asking me to babysit her youngest kid.  Having known two people with actual leukemia and them having undergone bone marrow transplants, the very last thing any doctor would advise a leukemia patient who had just under gone a bone marrow transplant is going into a big crowd.

She also told me that her medical records had been hacked and because she had been undergoing experimental fetal stem cell treatment, she was being harassed and had received death threats by some pro-lifers who were responsible for the hack. The interesting thing was that her “story” was nearly verbatim of a recent storyline on the TV show Law & Order SVU.

Oh and she was also supposedly diagnosed with a seizure disorder but her seizures only seemed to happen, much like her falling out of remission, when she wasn’t the center of attention. 
 
She also claimed when her youngest son was a baby, the he also had seizures. 9-11 was often called, numerous trips to the ER, many tests including several EKG’s and CAT scans were done on him and nothing was ever found to be wrong with him, not to mention that she was the only one who ever witnessed any of her son’s seizures. I was at the hospital one time when her son had been admitted for a “severe seizure”. The neurologists came in while I was there but his mother had left to get something to eat and he asked me if I or anyone else in the family had ever witnessed any of her son’s seizures first hand and then asked me other questions about her and finally asked if I was familiar with Munchausen By Proxy.

Funny, once her son got older, once he was able to talk, his “seizures” suddenly stopped.

IMO your “friend” may be in need of prayers but more importantly she is also in need of psychiatric help. And you continuing to allow you to manipulate your emotions, no matter how well intentioned it may be, is only allowing her to continue with her manipulation of you and what I think is her mental illness.

And FWIW my family finally cut off contact with my sociopathic relative after catching her in so many lies and manipulations and manufactured dramas and we are much happier and saner ourselves for doing so.

J.1 What a circus, indeed!

J.2 And, she may be scripting a similar circus. But the evidence is quite mixed--lots of things she's told me have been verified by other officials involved repeatedly over the years--particularly since she's been back in the States. . . . including bits by her staff at the pizza parlor the few months it was open.

J.3 And, yet, yes, I can be gullible, fooled, miss important things in such situations. I'm also human.

J.4 Nevertheless, I have a life-long value of accepting people more or less as they present themselves unless and until they prove otherwise by their actions and repeated words. Then, I make adjustments, draw different boundaries etc.

J.5 Thanks tons for your meaty reply. Much appreciated. Blessings,

[Quix]

I'm no expert on any of this, but I can tell you I've had experience with folks who were good at cooking up some "just so" stories of the kind that tending to peg the built in BS detector.

I've also known people who were horrible about relaying the details of a situation. People are funny.

Wellllllll, my extensive experience of counseling and teaching for 40+ years has been that I tend to collect the wilder cases--for some reason--on 2 continents.

In Taipei, there was a wealthy industrialist who owned several high rises . . . his adult son living on top of one of them . . . where there was a large patio with MARBLE furniture--I kid you not--marble chairs etc. Somehow, the son managed to get one of the chairs up on the railing and cause it to fall to the sidewalk below--thankfully, missing any pedestrians.

I told the wealthy bloke that I did not think there was anything I could do for him given the years conditioning the son toward such dynamics and because I didn't think that the father was willing to sacrifice enough pride to break through to the son.

He didn't return to therapy, alright. LOL.

I've "won" more than most of my peers have with such cases . . . and I've lost plenty, too.

[Quix]

OK. Here are my 2 cents. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

First of all, and you are probably not going to like to hear this as I think you are a very kind and good hearted person, but are perhaps also a bit gullible, but FWIW not all people you know on the “net”, no matter how long you have known them on the “net”, are necessarily telling you the truth.

See:

[snip]

Funny, once her son got older, once he was able to talk, his “seizures” suddenly stopped.

IMO your “friend” may be in need of prayers but more importantly she is also in need of psychiatric help. And you continuing to allow you to manipulate your emotions, no matter how well intentioned it may be, is only allowing her to continue with her manipulation of you and what I think is her mental illness.

And FWIW my family finally cut off contact with my sociopathic relative after catching her in so many lies and manipulations and manufactured dramas and we are much happier and saner ourselves for doing so.

CERTAINLY she IS in need of extensive long term therapy, prayer, deliverance, etc. etc. etc.

However, such folks rarely will allow themselves to be even court ordered into such--without bailing out of it ASAP.

So I do what I can and generally don't lose sleep over it.

Thx.

[Silver Pines]

IMO she’s a drama queen and sounds like a sociopath and IMO she is playing you and others for attention and sympathy. Don’t’ fall for it and I would sincerely advise you to cut off all contact with her. And FWIW I know the type.

@Neverdul
@Quix

This occurred to me, as well.

Whether the story is true or not, I do think she is feeding off the attention.  And it doesn't seem to be producing anything of value.

[Silver Pines]

Much appreciated.

I'll update when I get more info.

Just leaving her to stew in her own juice at the moment.

If past behavior is any clue, she'll get in touch when she's desperate enough for a solid, sane, caring perspective.

But @Quix, what good will that solid, sane, caring perspective do?  What good has it done to this point?  She ran right back to him again when she could have been free of him.  It's clear as crystal that she wants you to run after her the way she runs after him.  Don't you see that?  You're feeding her.

My sister-in-law's ex-husband was like that.  Frankly the two of them should never have married.  They were completely unalike and there was no basis for it, unless you call a desperate obsessed love on his part and a desire to be provided for on her part a basis.  It was doomed from the start.  He got down on his knees and cried and begged her to marry him.  If it had been me, I would have been so damned disgusted that would have been the end of it.  She was disgusted, too, but she went through with it, which was stupid.   Then years later when she began to pull away, he became distraught.

He would call my husband and me, crying, asking us to help him get her back.  It got to the point my husband wouldn't take his calls, which would go on for hours if you let them.  I lost patience to the point I told him he had to start acting like a man instead of a sniveling baby, because that kind of behavior from a man was a huge turn-off to women.  Every time I tried to talk sense to him, he would clam up and go silent, and when I was finished, he would start off again as though I'd never spoken at all.

My point being, he was like an emotional sponge who was so needy that he sucked the life out of people---drained them dry.  He even came close to driving his own dog crazy, a big German Shepherd who was completely freaked out by his emotionalism.  He brought the dog over one day and proceeded to break down in a sobbing fit.  The dog, who was trained within an inch of his life and who always adored me, started gnawing on my arm with his huge teeth...it was like he regressed to puppyhood out of sheer stress.  That man, although he was good, needed constant verbal massage and validation, endless listening to his endless listing of his problems. 

If your friend intended on listening to any of your advice, she would have done so by now.  She's like an alcoholic; she's going to have to hit bottom.  And she's going to have to help herself---you can't do it for her.

Washing your hands of her would be doing her a favor.  Otherwise you continue to perpetuate the cycle.

[Quix]

Have been chewing on just those issues.

I do tend to pull back lots periodically . . . until better behavior appears.  . . . somewhat of a behavior mod approach.

I think you make many great points. Thanks.

I certainly don't want her pushing against my inputs to help perpetuate her insanity. And, I think that is inescapable dynamically in lots of situations.

But @Quix, what good will that solid, sane, caring perspective do?  What good has it done to this point?  She ran right back to him again when she could have been free of him.  It's clear as crystal that she wants you to run after her the way she runs after him.  Don't you see that?  You're feeding her.

My sister-in-law's ex-husband was like that.  Frankly the two of them should never have married.  They were completely unalike and there was no basis for it, unless you call a desperate obsessed love on his part and a desire to be provided for on her part a basis.  It was doomed from the start.  He got down on his knees and cried and begged her to marry him.  If it had been me, I would have been so damned disgusted that would have been the end of it.  She was disgusted, too, but she went through with it, which was stupid.   Then years later when she began to pull away, he became distraught.

He would call my husband and me, crying, asking us to help him get her back.  It got to the point my husband wouldn't take his calls, which would go on for hours if you let them.  I lost patience to the point I told him he had to start acting like a man instead of a sniveling baby, because that kind of behavior from a man was a huge turn-off to women.  Every time I tried to talk sense to him, he would clam up and go silent, and when I was finished, he would start off again as though I'd never spoken at all.

My point being, he was like an emotional sponge who was so needy that he sucked the life out of people---drained them dry.  He even came close to driving his own dog crazy, a big German Shepherd who was completely freaked out by his emotionalism.  He brought the dog over one day and proceeded to break down in a sobbing fit.  The dog, who was trained within an inch of his life and who always adored me, started gnawing on my arm with his huge teeth...it was like he regressed to puppyhood out of sheer stress.  That man, although he was good, needed constant verbal massage and validation, endless listening to his endless listing of his problems. 

If your friend intended on listening to any of your advice, she would have done so by now.  She's like an alcoholic; she's going to have to hit bottom.  And she's going to have to help herself---you can't do it for her.

Washing your hands of her would be doing her a favor.  Otherwise you continue to perpetuate the cycle.

[Quix]

Have been chewing on just those issues.

I do tend to pull back lots periodically . . . until better behavior appears.  . . . somewhat of a behavior mod approach.

I think you make many great points. Thanks.

I certainly don't want her pushing against my inputs to help perpetuate her insanity. And, I think that is inescapable dynamically in lots of situations.

And, to be fair, she HAS made significant movement over the years. There's just tons more to go.

I ended up--long story--with a borderline/paranoid character disorder housemate--woman for 8 years. As you may know, such folks will NOT appear for nor cooperate with even court-ordered therapy. And, her first husband was a psychologist and she was brilliant--and incredibly stubborn--particularly when having a psychotic break. LOL.

Initially, her breaks would occur 3-4 per week over absolutely surface, nothing, silly stuff of no consequence. By the time she left, they were maybe once a year or so. Still no fun but a lot better.

Now the profession would say that such people will NEVER change, significantly, at all--are totally incapable of change. I no longer believe that.

It sure is darned difficult to influence such change, however.

My best Christian, prayer, psychologist etc. efforts tended to produce no significant change.

Just being a stable caring daily influence that did draw some boundaries that I made stick--that tended to help the most.

[Restored]

In hindsight, it sounds more co-dependent.
It could be possible that she enjoys sometimes playing the martyr. He's probably dependent on her, maybe his mom was crazy? He likes the abuse, the wild swings?

I had a roomie who was dating a friend of mine. He treated her like crap until he dumped her. Then he was at my feet, begging me to help him get her back. When they got back together, he treated her even worse. It got so bad that he finally moved to the west coast to get away from her. She ended up with a battery of men who ran around on her, married a guy 10 years older who...ran around on her. They eventually divorced. We resumed the friendship a few years ago and she finally discovered married men. Co-dependency with no commitment. #WIN

We were hiking a few years back and she blurted out "I should have married you". I should get an Emmy for that performance of "Yeah, that would have been nice" #OhHellNo 

[sneakypete]

Total waste of time. You can't save someone that doesn't want to be saved. What will end up happening is he will get arrested and she will then turn on you for getting her husband arrested,she will testify in his defense,and she will be right back with him again until the day he kills her or finds someone new to beat and abuse because he has broken every bit of spirit she has and no longer challenges him at all.

OR.....,he will go to jail and she will then find someone else to beat her because she NEEDS to be a victim and the center of attention. If her new man doesn't beat and abuse her at first,she will keep at it until he does. If he doesn't,she will leave him and find someone else who WILL beat her. She is a drama queen and needs the drama like people need oxygen.

I've seen this happen,and in all probability,so have most of you.


Your time and efforts would be better spent helping someone trying to get away from a bad situation.

[Silver Pines]

Have been chewing on just those issues.

I do tend to pull back lots periodically . . . until better behavior appears.  . . . somewhat of a behavior mod approach.

I think you make many great points. Thanks.

I certainly don't want her pushing against my inputs to help perpetuate her insanity. And, I think that is inescapable dynamically in lots of situations.

@Quix

You're welcome.  But keep in mind that the better behavior is always temporary.  She misses your attention, so she knows how to modify.  Then back to business as usual.

[Quix]

In hindsight, it sounds more co-dependent.
It could be possible that she enjoys sometimes playing the martyr. He's probably dependent on her, maybe his mom was crazy? He likes the abuse, the wild swings?

I had a roomie who was dating a friend of mine. He treated her like crap until he dumped her. Then he was at my feet, begging me to help him get her back. When they got back together, he treated her even worse. It got so bad that he finally moved to the west coast to get away from her. She ended up with a battery of men who ran around on her, married a guy 10 years older who...ran around on her. They eventually divorced. We resumed the friendship a few years ago and she finally discovered married men. Co-dependency with no commitment. #WIN

We were hiking a few years back and she blurted out "I should have married you". I should get an Emmy for that performance of "Yeah, that would have been nice" #OhHellNo 

I don't know if "enjoys" fits at all.

It's just all some folks have ever known as 'normalcy.'

And something different--even health--can be consciously or unconsciously frightful.

[Quix]

Total waste of time. You can't save someone that doesn't want to be saved. What will end up happening is he will get arrested and she will then turn on you for getting her husband arrested,she will testify in his defense,and she will be right back with him again until the day he kills her or finds someone new to beat and abuse because he has broken every bit of spirit she has and no longer challenges him at all.

OR.....,he will go to jail and she will then find someone else to beat her because she NEEDS to be a victim and the center of attention. If her new man doesn't beat and abuse her at first,she will keep at it until he does. If he doesn't,she will leave him and find someone else who WILL beat her. She is a drama queen and needs the drama like people need oxygen.

I've seen this happen,and in all probability,so have most of you.


Your time and efforts would be better spent helping someone trying to get away from a bad situation.

Perhaps you are not well read on the whole situation . . . he went to jail right away as the cop saw her walking down the road with bruised eye and cut lip. Wife no longer can prevent it, in that State--given that evidence, particularly.

Certainly there is a perverse demonic element to it that seeks out abusive acts, experiences, etc. . . . including one element I'd best not share.

[Quix]

@Quix

You're welcome.  But keep in mind that the better behavior is always temporary.  She misses your attention, so she knows how to modify.  Then back to business as usual.

Certainly the huge 'rubber-band' constantly pulling strongly back toward stasis . . . is a huge factor.

[Quix]

I did hear from the wife.

She admits that hubby has NOT CHANGED AT ALL from his near death episode. He takes NO responsibility for anything. No surprise there.

I was tough in my response. I often am.

She still insists she'd not leave her worst enemy alone in such a situation.

Time for triage, imho. And hubby is not on the 'likely to survive' in any redemptive sense--list.

[Quix]

@Quix

. . . But keep in mind that the better behavior is always temporary. . . .

When I first connected with her while she was still in Europe . . . she constantly or frequently demonstrated/reported a list of extremely dysfunctional to self-destructive behaviors. Some of those have disappeared or become rare, as near as I can tell. She has become free-er and more healthy in small ways here and there.

[Gefn]

@Neverdul
@Quix

This occurred to me, as well.

Whether the story is true or not, I do think she is feeding off the attention.  And it doesn't seem to be producing anything of value.

Borderline personality? If that's the case it's almost impossible to treat.

[Quix]

Borderline personality? If that's the case it's almost impossible to treat.

Agreed.

Had lots of 'missions impossible' dumped in my lap over the years. Seen some amazing breakthroughs. Won some, lost some.

Time will tell.

Not going to waste a lot of time or energy in doing a lot of back flips to vainly try and 'force' someone into health. That just does NOT work. LOL.

Nor does caring more about their heal and growth than they do.

Thanks.