Author Topic: Int'l. Study: IPCC Doesn’t Account for 1 Billion Tons of CO2 Absorbed Annually… by Cement  (Read 18280 times)

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Offline LateForLunch

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IsailedawayfromFR you are wasting your time trying to communicate with Suppressed. He behaves like a deeply ignorant person who believes himself to be a genius. For instance, he  stated that I "obviously didn't understand the topic". Really? Do tell. 

If we would speak of a lack of understanding, what would we say of Suppressed, who clearly doesn't understand how the mechanism of radiative forcing in regard to atmospheric carbon concentrations theoretically functions, nor does he understand that the effect if any, would be logarithmic, not exponential. That is not opinion. That is scientific fact. 

We would have to furthermore speak of the fact that Suppressed does not understand that the average carbon dioxide level of the atmosphere was ten times higher in the period of the deepest cooling on the planet, nor how that refutes the entire premise of radiative downward forcing by carbon concentration. He denies the reality that every single prediction of temperature increase based on the notion of carbon-driven radiative forcing has been proven blatantly incorrect.

Suppressed does not acknowledge impartial scientific studies which clearly indicate that any net effects of increase in average atmospheric global temperature will be strongly positive (better crop yields, less crop failures, increased growth of rain forestation, less human death from exposure to freezing temperatures) for many decades to come. He does not acknowledge that virtually every major so-called "study" presented as "evidence" of AGW being supposedly real, have been soundly debunked by scientists who have no connection whatsoever to any group with any vested interest in anything but reality.

Suppressed furthermore does not acknowledge that the endless flood of false, fudged, contrived, distorted, obscured, badly-gathered, out-and-out fabricated data trying to support the idiotic notion of AGW, has given many very normal, ethical people legitimate reluctance to believe a single word that comes out of the mouths of anyone claiming authority to present objective data in support of AGW.

In short the number of things that Suppressed has not said but should have said, far outnumbers the things he has said most of which are bogged down in endless minutiae and tangential, peripheral digressions from the central points presented, which he swats away desperately with technical jargon and irate vituperation like a Sudanese grocery vendor swatting at flies on a hot afternoon.

There is no positive value to trying to communicate with anyone whose ability to be forthright, responsive or politely candid is so horribly suppressed. Instead of conversation we are subjected to an endless retreat into assumed offense, petulant, plaintive cowardly refusals to answer direct questions in an understandable, non-technical way, combined with a habit of rescripting screed vomit that is as common on any AGW proponent website, as rat droppings  in a sewer.

This person uses words as munitions, not primarily tools of communication to exchange thoughts, information or opinions. He presents facts with the intention of obfuscating reality, not clarifying it. He is either unable or unwilling to discuss the entire issue of AGW intelligently and so is unworthy of serious, well-considered, thoughtful responses but only of the sort of ignoring and contempt he has repeatedly shown to other posters, including myself, who have attempted to engage him in substantive exchanges on this thread- and failed because of his relentless, evasive, arrogant ignorant mendacity. His contempt for either reciprocity of response to query or for the principle of communicating in an understandable, forthright manner which invites everyone to participate, not just those who understand the technical minutiae of physical geographical science, is demonstrated in virtually every annoying, evasive post.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:34:37 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Just_Victor

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IsailedawayfromFR you are wasting your time trying to communicate with Suppressed. He is an utterly ignorant fool who believes himself to be a genius.

That's completely unnecessary and uncalled for.  We're adults here.  We can disagree about the subject at hand with without name calling.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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@IsailedawayfromFR

I never said that warming was "bad for the earth" (whatever that means).

As for being bad for the inhabitants, there are a number of reasons, but let me give you one example.

One issue is that rate of change.  Soils take a long time (in human terms) to develop.  Plants adjust to climate and soil conditions.  If climate changes rapidly, then the climate bands get "out of synch" with the soils.  While some crops are fine with this, certain ones (e.g., wine grapes) are highly sensitive to this disruption.

This is just one example, without getting into things like weather extremes -- since "warming of the earth" doesn't mean a uniform warming.
That is pure Gobblygook.  Not proof to justify the wasteful spending of Green Schemes.

And 'climate changing rapidly' is the definition of weather.  If grapes go south, so be it. Others will flourish even more.

You offer no proof, hence your argument to torment others by charging them to live shallower lives by taking away their wealth.livelihoods has no basis.

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Offline LateForLunch

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That's completely unnecessary and uncalled for.  We're adults here.  We can disagree about the subject at hand with without name calling.

Thanks for pointing that out. I sometimes forget that different forums I post on have different standards for acceptable posting. I appreciate the reminder.

In light of the objection, I've removed those terms. 

I am really not the slightest bit concerned about offending Suppressed, since his attitude seems to be identical in that regard concerning me and other posters on the thread (very patronizing, condescending), but I am very concerned with conforming to the requirements of the GOPBR forum which I respect very much.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:38:41 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline driftdiver

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Yes, if additional CO2 is added, it will adjust temperatures to remain in equilibrium at that new point.  That's exactly the point.

Alive and breathing is minor compared to the industrial input.

@Suppressed
Don't forget cow flatulence.   Thats a major contributor!!!!

What about whale flatulence?   Whales are bigger then cows.  Perhaps the whaling industry actually saved the planet.
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Offline Suppressed

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@Suppressed
Don't forget cow flatulence.   Thats a major contributor!!!!

What about whale flatulence?   Whales are bigger then cows.  Perhaps the whaling industry actually saved the planet.

Not forgetting.

Actually, whales were saved by the drilling of petroleum.  Whales would have been hunted to extinction if not for Drake and his well.
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Offline driftdiver

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That's completely unnecessary and uncalled for.  We're adults here.  We can disagree about the subject at hand with without name calling.

@Just_Victor
@LateForLunch

I struggle with that.  Conservatives by nature tend to be more reserved.  We respond to emotional arguments with facts and figures.   As a result we have lost nearly every discussion and let the lefties walk all over us on a myriad of issues.

As it relates to AGW, the left seeks to control the worlds population based on incomplete, erroneous and in many cases fraudulent data.  They seek to redistribute our wealth to that of other countries.  They seek to eliminate our personal freedoms and way of life.  If we speak out they will do anything and everything to shut us down.  Getting us fired, funding pulled, branded as evil scumbags who should be jailed.   Prominent political figures have stated people who do not support AGW should not be allowed to hold public office.

The left has proposed massive projects to fix AGW. Projects which would likely seriously damage the environment and cost trillions of dollars.  All based on junk science.

So when someone suggests I should be a slave to the global cadre pushing AGW I will not respond with a polite discussion any more.   

April 12 should be named a national holiday to remind us of how the powers-that-be treated scientists who proposed an unpopular theory.  It was on this day that Galileo was convicted of heresy for suggesting the earth was not the center of the solar system.

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Offline driftdiver

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Not forgetting.

Actually, whales were saved by the drilling of petroleum.  Whales would have been hunted to extinction if not for Drake and his well.

@Suppressed

Which has nothing to do with the fact that whale flatulence as a source of global warming gases was significantly reduced.   

But the flatulence / methane really has nothing to do with their motivation.  Cow farts is yet one more example of how they seek to control people and make us slaves.
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Offline Just_Victor

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@Just_Victor
@LateForLunch

I struggle with that.  Conservatives by nature tend to be more reserved.  We respond to emotional arguments with facts and figures.   As a result we have lost nearly every discussion and let the lefties walk all over us on a myriad of issues.

As it relates to AGW, the left seeks to control the worlds population based on incomplete, erroneous and in many cases fraudulent data.  They seek to redistribute our wealth to that of other countries.  They seek to eliminate our personal freedoms and way of life.  If we speak out they will do anything and everything to shut us down.  Getting us fired, funding pulled, branded as evil scumbags who should be jailed.   Prominent political figures have stated people who do not support AGW should not be allowed to hold public office.

The left has proposed massive projects to fix AGW. Projects which would likely seriously damage the environment and cost trillions of dollars.  All based on junk science.

So when someone suggests I should be a slave to the global cadre pushing AGW I will not respond with a polite discussion any more.   

April 12 should be named a national holiday to remind us of how the powers-that-be treated scientists who proposed an unpopular theory.  It was on this day that Galileo was convicted of heresy for suggesting the earth was not the center of the solar system.

Except that when I step over into the political forum, I find that I generally agree with @Suppressed.  We're not dealing with the left here.  And I'm not sure he/she agrees with the scaremongering of AGW, but just that CO2 is more of a culprit that I think it is.  But it's still possible that I'm wrong.  The science is not settled in either direction.

But the point is, I don't need to be rude to someone to make my point.  And I especially don't want to be rude to someone who on 90% of the rest of the issues, I probably agree with.  Friends are too hard to come by and I don't need to be ruling them out over something as menial as AGW.
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Offline driftdiver

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Except that when I step over into the political forum, I find that I generally agree with @Suppressed.  We're not dealing with the left here.  And I'm not sure he/she agrees with the scaremongering of AGW, but just that CO2 is more of a culprit that I think it is.  But it's still possible that I'm wrong.  The science is not settled in either direction.

But the point is, I don't need to be rude to someone to make my point.  And I especially don't want to be rude to someone who on 90% of the rest of the issues, I probably agree with.  Friends are too hard to come by and I don't need to be ruling them out over something as menial as AGW.

@Just_Victor
i still think April 12th should be a national holiday. 
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Offline Just_Victor

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@Just_Victor
i still think April 12th should be a national holiday.

I'm OK with that.

I read though that Galileo was actually convicted because he published his findings such that the church (i.e. the government at the time) couldn't control the release of the info.  They asked him to wait, and he didn't.  And as a further slap in the face, he published in Italian rather than Latin, so the common man could read it.  The church admitted he was right, they were just afraid of being publically contradicted.

But as just another example of the heavy hand of government suppressing the truth, I'm all for making April 12 a holiday.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:56:38 pm by Just_Victor »
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Offline driftdiver

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I'm OK with that.

I read though that Galileo was actually convicted because he published his findings such that the church (i.e. the government at the time) couldn't control the release of the info.  They asked him to wait, and he didn't.  And as a further slap in the face, he published in Italian rather than Latin, so the common man could read it.  The church admitted he was right, they were just afraid of being publically contradicted.

But as just another example of the heavy hand of government suppressing the truth, I'm all for making April 12 a holiday.

@Just_Victor

My point of course is that the mixture of politics into science is quite dangerous.  Very few people want to live in a polluted hostile world.   We have learned to like it clean.   

Of course many scientists have learned about govt money and that if they parrot the govt line the govt money will flow like magic.    So they put fish on treadmills and get icebreakers stuck in ice studying the lack of ice.

All while taking our freedoms and money.  Perhaps the first move (after the new holiday) is restore some integrity to the halls of Science.
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Offline Suppressed

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@Suppressed

Which has nothing to do with the fact that whale flatulence as a source of global warming gases was significantly reduced.   

But the flatulence / methane really has nothing to do with their motivation.  Cow farts is yet one more example of how they seek to control people and make us slaves.

Yes, the Left wants to control people, but I would caution that this doesn't mean that's everyone's motivation.

When I studied climatology in grad school (I decided to go a different direction, though), long long ago, some of my associates were very skeptical and also rather libertarian politically.  Even the strongest doubters among them have accepted the science, and I don't think it's about wanting control over people.  They are good, honest scientists.

But I know that's not PC.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Yes, the Left wants to control people, but I would caution that this doesn't mean that's everyone's motivation.

When I studied climatology in grad school (I decided to go a different direction, though), long long ago, some of my associates were very skeptical and also rather libertarian politically.  Even the strongest doubters among them have accepted the science, and I don't think it's about wanting control over people.  They are good, honest scientists.

But I know that's not PC.

You say that like the fact that they "have accepted the science" is in  itself some sort of good thing. WHAT THE H*LL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? What exactly, precisely is this supposed "science" that they have accepted??? You yourself have not even articulate in detail what is being "accepted".  So one must logically assume that you don't understand it any more than they do, or are being deliberately deceptive knowing it to be false science. 

One thing is certain (Michael Crichton certainly agrees with me) the so-called science supporting AGW speculation is wrong. It is so wrong that even people without technical degrees understand how wrong it is.

I know why you refuse to answer direct questions on the topic and insult those who disagree with you (as you insulted me, claiming that I didn't understand radiative forcing which I have clearly demonstrated contrary). No apology?  You yourself don't understand any consistent argument in favor of AGW least of all carbon-related downward forcing. 

And the references to "credentials" and chest-puffing about "being out of town" like you are some big shot who flies hither and thither to rub elbows with the great and the near-great. Now allusions to being educated in climatology. Give me a break. Tiresome and unimpressive.

Not ONE direct, cogent, meaningful response to the substantive refutations of your assertions, betrays the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in regard to AGW, carbon-related radiative forcing or the larger issues inherent in physical geographical science as it pertains to the topic at hand.

I'm not going to waste any more of the forum's time or my own refuting you and having you arrogantly ignore everything that is said, except by responding with rudeness.  It's like punching a marshmallow. If you are a conservative, your behavior does not demonstrate it in regard to this topic.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 09:49:34 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline driftdiver

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Yes, the Left wants to control people, but I would caution that this doesn't mean that's everyone's motivation.

When I studied climatology in grad school (I decided to go a different direction, though), long long ago, some of my associates were very skeptical and also rather libertarian politically.  Even the strongest doubters among them have accepted the science, and I don't think it's about wanting control over people.  They are good, honest scientists.

But I know that's not PC.

@Suppressed

How?   When the source data they are using has been manipulated.   When the models they rely on have been proven inaccurate & incomplete.   How can any scientist sit there and say they KNOW how the earth will respond?   They take a snapshot and extrapolate it out to support AGW all while ignoring millions of years of contradictory data.  Any scientist who expresses doubt is branded a heretic and destroyed.   Proponents of course can fly the world attending conferences and authoring their apocalyptic predictions with full support from these 'scientists'.

We know the earths temperature changes and has continuously changed since this planet was formed.   Yet suddenly this change is due to our SUV, our cows, our refrigerator?  And the fix is to transfer wealth from the United States to any number of other countries while IGNORING the 2 nations with 36% of the earths population.

Hogwash, these scientists have proven themselves to be without integrity and they deserve not one iota of consideration until they have cleaned up their act AND paid for their dishonesty.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Except that when I step over into the political forum, I find that I generally agree with @Suppressed.  We're not dealing with the left here.  And I'm not sure he/she agrees with the scaremongering of AGW, but just that CO2 is more of a culprit that I think it is.  But it's still possible that I'm wrong.  The science is not settled in either direction.

But the point is, I don't need to be rude to someone to make my point.  And I especially don't want to be rude to someone who on 90% of the rest of the issues, I probably agree with.  Friends are too hard to come by and I don't need to be ruling them out over something as menial as AGW.

Agree mostly. However on the point of rudeness. The invasion of Normandy might have been considered "rude" had not the German army already been on the territory behaving very rudely themselves for more than a year.

Rude is a relative term. If one is being rude to someone who is themselves being rude,  is that a moral offense? Or is it instant karma? 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 09:51:26 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Suppressed

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@Suppressed
How?   When the source data they are using has been manipulated.   When the models they rely on have been proven inaccurate & incomplete.   How can any scientist sit there and say they KNOW how the earth will respond?   They take a snapshot and extrapolate it out to support AGW all while ignoring millions of years of contradictory data. 

Thank you for your reply, @driftdiver.

The folks I studied under and with were predominantly geologists, so they were quite aware of the earth's history.  If you look at previous changes in CO2 and temperature, they were not nearly at the rate we've observed during industrial history.

I would say that not a single one of them knows how the earth will respond, any more than they know that ice will melt when heated.   But they have faith (yes, faith) that the response will follow certain physical principles.  And perhaps the clarity of the response is a lot less than that of the melting ice, but it's a lot more clear than you're implying.

Remember the point made by George Box: "Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful."  Even if we can't predict exactly what the dollar amount of the debt will be in 835 days, we can still say that we're on a bad path.  Nobody predicted the damage Obama did, precisely, but we don't throw out the model and say a misprediction means it was wrong to worry about him.

Quote
Any scientist who expresses doubt is branded a heretic and destroyed.   

I know this better than most.

Quote
We know the earths temperature changes and has continuously changed since this planet was formed.   Yet suddenly this change is due to our SUV, our cows, our refrigerator?  And the fix is to transfer wealth from the United States to any number of other countries while IGNORING the 2 nations with 36% of the earths population.

Hogwash, these scientists have proven themselves to be without integrity and they deserve not one iota of consideration until they have cleaned up their act AND paid for their dishonesty.

I have a life that calls me away before I can complete this response.  I apologize...I plan to return to it later to address these points, along with others on the thread. 
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Thanks for pointing that out. I sometimes forget that different forums I post on have different standards for acceptable posting. I appreciate the reminder.

In light of the objection, I've removed those terms. 

I am really not the slightest bit concerned about offending Suppressed, since his attitude seems to be identical in that regard concerning me and other posters on the thread (very patronizing, condescending), but I am very concerned with conforming to the requirements of the GOPBR forum which I respect very much.
Your terms toward the ideas was correct.  They are indeed idiotic and repugnant.  Only mistake you made is you associated those terms to the originator of the comment.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Not forgetting.

Whales would have been hunted to extinction if not for Drake and his well.
Another wild accusation that has no proof backing it up.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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  And I'm not sure he/she agrees with the scaremongering of AGW, but just that CO2 is more of a culprit that I think it is.  But it's still possible that I'm wrong.  The science is not settled in either direction.

The real problem is accepting his premise that AGW is bad.  What proof exists?  The CO2 is a strawman to be discarded if that proof is not rock-solid.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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The folks I studied under and with were predominantly geologists, so they were quite aware of the earth's history.  If you look at previous changes in CO2 and temperature, they were not nearly at the rate we've observed during industrial history.

Got some type of chart that indicates that or are you winging it again?
Quote
I would say that not a single one of them knows how the earth will respond, any more than they know that ice will melt when heated. 

That sort of argument is why people have problems with you.

You quote an undeniable, specific physics rock-solid principle like what temperature ice melts at and then proceed to try to somehow equate that with a scientific MODEL like the earth reacting to changes in its atmosphere.

That is completely idiotic to even bring that up in the same sentence.

Ice melting is black and white proven physics, while the history of earth's responses CANNOT be proven, only theorized.
@LateForLunch - you are correct in all areas.  A marshmallow without substance.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 11:47:55 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline Just_Victor

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The real problem is accepting his premise that AGW is bad.  What proof exists?  The CO2 is a strawman to be discarded if that proof is not rock-solid.

You're right, the premise is flawed.  The cause/effect of warming/CO2 is not established.  The assumptions about driving forces (in control system analysis we call it gain) and the belief that there are positive feeds backs in the controls are likely wrong.  And the models that the predictions are based on based on aren't worth toilet paper the printouts are printed on.

But that's no reason to treat people here poorly.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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@Just_Victor
@LateForLunch

I struggle with that.  Conservatives by nature tend to be more reserved.  We respond to emotional arguments with facts and figures.   As a result we have lost nearly every discussion and let the lefties walk all over us on a myriad of issues.

As it relates to AGW, the left seeks to control the worlds population based on incomplete, erroneous and in many cases fraudulent data.  They seek to redistribute our wealth to that of other countries.  They seek to eliminate our personal freedoms and way of life.  If we speak out they will do anything and everything to shut us down.  Getting us fired, funding pulled, branded as evil scumbags who should be jailed.   Prominent political figures have stated people who do not support AGW should not be allowed to hold public office.

The left has proposed massive projects to fix AGW. Projects which would likely seriously damage the environment and cost trillions of dollars.  All based on junk science.

So when someone suggests I should be a slave to the global cadre pushing AGW I will not respond with a polite discussion any more.   

April 12 should be named a national holiday to remind us of how the powers-that-be treated scientists who proposed an unpopular theory.  It was on this day that Galileo was convicted of heresy for suggesting the earth was not the center of the solar system.
I am ever reminded that after surveying some 6-7000 production and drilling locations the Federal Government sought to not only fine, but imprison officers of seven oil companies over a total of twenty eight (28) dead birds found on those locations, none of which were endangered species. While I have no figures on the per windmill kill rates of endangered and protected bird species per month, twenty eight birds pales in comparison--and the windmills get a pass.
Typical of such 'enforcement', these regulations, these laws are used to bludgeon targeted persons, companies, groups, and industries, but selectively NOT enforced against others, despite documentation of violations.

As for AGW, that has yet to be proven. The same cycles and trend rates are observed in events long before human populations and technology could have had any effect, and the ability that human activity might have any effect--one way or the other, short of cataclysmic self destruction--remains to be proven. The science is far from 'settled', despite the stacking of peer review committees which are fully capable of suppressing anything to the contrary in the scientific literature, simply by not publishing that which disagrees and by giving the stamp of academic approval to that which conforms to their ideology. Controlling the narrative does not change the facts, only people's perception of reality, at least for so long as those perceptions are controlled. That, however, is all that is needed to loot treasuries and impoverish humanity on a global scale.
If, indeed, such cataclysm awaited, the best chance humanity would have of surviving lies in our ability to adapt, and that depends on our technology and our industry--the first to be butchered on the altars of the warmists.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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You're right, the premise is flawed.  The cause/effect of warming/CO2 is not established.  The assumptions about driving forces (in control system analysis we call it gain) and the belief that there are positive feeds backs in the controls are likely wrong.  And the models that the predictions are based on based on aren't worth toilet paper the printouts are printed on.

Before one can decide whether warming is "good" or "bad", one must know what the optimum temperature is. If we are below that, warming is good, the trend is toward that optimum. If we are above it, then not so much.

However, I know of no means by which it has been established that the temperature of the globe should be set at x degrees, only that in those historical periods when the temperatures were colder humanity has been subject to famine, disease, and warfare over limited resources.

If the purpose of science is understanding, then let's have an open and honest discussion of valid data and draw conclusions from that, not utilize cherry picked secret databases massaged to prove dogma. The entire AGW/ACC movement has made a bad name for science by doing the latter, and suppressing dissenting opinion for the obvious purpose of personal gain, both in terms of prestige and lucre.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

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Before one can decide whether warming is "good" or "bad", one must know what the optimum temperature is. If we are below that, warming is good, the trend is toward that optimum. If we are above it, then not so much.

However, I know of no means by which it has been established that the temperature of the globe should be set at x degrees, only that in those historical periods when the temperatures were colder humanity has been subject to famine, disease, and warfare over limited resources.

If the purpose of science is understanding, then let's have an open and honest discussion of valid data and draw conclusions from that, not utilize cherry picked secret databases massaged to prove dogma. The entire AGW/ACC movement has made a bad name for science by doing the latter, and suppressing dissenting opinion for the obvious purpose of personal gain, both in terms of prestige and lucre.

@Smokin Joe

The ideal temperature depends on how I feel.   Do I want to goto the beach?  Work in the garage?   Or maybe go skiing.    /s
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.