Author Topic: Expanding our reach  (Read 32348 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2016, 10:03:11 pm »
Presenting this document to you all for critique was just the first part of my idea.  Assuming it's in good enough shape (or after it's been tweaked to make it in good enough shape), how can we use it (or should we use it) to start a conversation with those folks who would agree with us on most if not all these concepts but who would never consider identifying as "conservative"?  I'm thinking religious blacks, many hispanics, a lot of the union rank-and-file, etc.  I look forward to your thoughts.

The first thing we must do is figure out how to regain control of public education!  IMHO that is job one!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2016, 10:05:37 pm »
The first thing we must do is figure out how to regain control of public education!  IMHO that is job one!
While I agree with the goal, I think social media memes would travel faster, quicker, and be more effective in planting the seeds of liberty in young minds.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2016, 10:07:39 pm »
While I agree with the goal, I think social media memes would travel faster, quicker, and be more effective in planting the seeds of liberty in young minds.

Actually I think our ability to accomplish that is going to ab a multifaceted long term effort and social media will play a very big part in it for sure.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2016, 10:13:02 pm »
I recently had a long conversation (probably two hours) with a young woman who grew up in Germany and is now working here on a green card (Medical field) about our recent election and my analysis of it.   When we were done all she could say was: "WOW!  I've never heard a lot of that before and never had anyone explain any of it in the manner you did.   Thanks you!"

I personally think that is very illustrative of the problem we face.  It's not that our ideas have been rejected it's that they have never even been heard by a great many.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 10:14:49 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2016, 10:15:07 pm »
While I agree with the goal, I think social media memes would travel faster, quicker, and be more effective in planting the seeds of liberty in young minds.

So twitter and facebook?  Are there any places (I admit that I don't use either of those to any great extent) where we could start cultivating these ideas in their minds, where we would reach more than just the folks who already identify as conservative?
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3) Leave me alone!

Offline musiclady

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2016, 10:16:49 pm »
Bookmark

Thanks @Doug Loss !  Looks great at first viewing.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2016, 11:36:21 pm »
So twitter and facebook?  Are there any places (I admit that I don't use either of those to any great extent) where we could start cultivating these ideas in their minds, where we would reach more than just the folks who already identify as conservative?
MMMMMkay.

Start with a hot young lady doing you tube videos, just popping up with odd situations where the government is doing the wrong thing. Something outrageous, and expose some of the (I'm thinking EPA at the moment) wrong thinking out there for what it is.

Keep it simple, light, short, and something kids can be outraged a bit by.

Maybe under the concept of "learn your rights".

Throw in a web link to a 'heavier' discussion of the Right violated, what it is, How it should work, Where it comes from, why that isn't outdated, put in hyperlinks so people can skip around, allow comments, and try to go viral with it.
Try to appeal to younger (millennial, Gen X) folks, and if busted, well, "I'm a great grandpa trying to pass on to you the heritage and future you should have, your birthright, or the country you have adopted, your future. You need to know this stuff and people in power aren't telling you the whole story."

The basic theme is
Rights are Rights for Everyone, or They Aren't Rights.
(sometimes that means you have to let people you don't necessarily agree with have their say, too).

No profanity in the comments, no personal attacks allowed, on any basis.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2016, 12:06:15 am »
@Smokin Joe

Good thoughts.  I'll have to see if I can put something together that will work for this (or find someone already doing something similar who'd be amenable to taking this on).  I can't say how quickly I can get it done, as I have other responsibilities too (don't we all!).  If anyone has some more suggestions, I'll be happy to get them!
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2016, 11:31:09 am »
It occurred to me last night that my document is only half-done.  I talked about our rights, but I didn't put in anything about our responsibilities.  I'll work on that over the weekend and post it here when I have something new to discuss.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Gefn

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2016, 11:42:45 am »
I am looking forward to reading it @Doug Loss

It's going to be a long weekend for me.
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Offline EC

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2016, 12:09:24 pm »
Same here. I do have some thoughts on duties versa rights, but want to see what you have first.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2016, 02:18:54 pm »
MMMMMkay.

Start with a hot young lady doing you tube videos, just popping up with odd situations where the government is doing the wrong thing. Something outrageous, and expose some of the (I'm thinking EPA at the moment) wrong thinking out there for what it is.

Keep it simple, light, short, and something kids can be outraged a bit by.

Maybe under the concept of "learn your rights".

Throw in a web link to a 'heavier' discussion of the Right violated, what it is, How it should work, Where it comes from, why that isn't outdated, put in hyperlinks so people can skip around, allow comments, and try to go viral with it.
Try to appeal to younger (millennial, Gen X) folks, and if busted, well, "I'm a great grandpa trying to pass on to you the heritage and future you should have, your birthright, or the country you have adopted, your future. You need to know this stuff and people in power aren't telling you the whole story."

The basic theme is
Rights are Rights for Everyone, or They Aren't Rights.
(sometimes that means you have to let people you don't necessarily agree with have their say, too).

No profanity in the comments, no personal attacks allowed, on any basis.

I can envision a 30 second clip showing pig pen sitting in a mud puddle with Lucy chewing him out and telling him that the EPA is going to fine him!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2016, 02:20:31 pm »
It occurred to me last night that my document is only half-done.  I talked about our rights, but I didn't put in anything about our responsibilities.  I'll work on that over the weekend and post it here when I have something new to discuss.

Great catch!   Right s and responsibilities are inextricably linked together! You cannot have one without the other.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2016, 02:37:40 pm »
Noted.  I'll take a look at "Critical Path" as soon as I have a chance.  But would non-THINKING type personalities read a document such as I'm working on anyway?  For them, perhaps a video presentation would be best.  I'm not ready (or probably the best person for it anyway) to make one of those.

Love this thread!!! Some really tremendous posts and ideas from several posters!

Fuller put some serious thought into his philosophy. He decided early in life to dedicate himself to really trying to improve Humanity through technology rather than simply making money. This caused him some difficulty in his long career because he had a family to feed and more than once, he turned down very lucrative offers to do things that compromised his long-term goal and paid for it with financial difficulties.

Another issue he brought up in the book is what he calls the principle of ephemerality. He likens this to the physical principle of orbital precession - how cosmic objects create significant gravity effects when they pass close to each other. He noted that many of the patents he filed over the years did not perform at all as he expected when he filed them. Some of the ones he thought would result in great influence and income were ignored and some he thought would be duds took off like rockets.

So Bucky figured that the goal in work must be to be active and to contribute with energy and dedication, but not to be overly concerned with the results, because the ultimate results of work are sometimes difficult or impossible to foresee. Sometimes the ephemeral, unintended benefits of doing work turn out to be greater than the main focus of the work.

An example of this is how the project to land a man on the moon resulted in a whole host of technological developments which were not the central focus of the effort, but which over the long run, often turned out to be more enduring and important than anything achieved by physically landing on the moon.

Fullers philosophy of benevolent dedication to Humanity also is reminiscent of Christian mystic GI Gurdjieff's instruction to his students that they must "give back to the Universe" in their lives. Gurdjieff taught that we all should rightly take the attitude that we are repaying a debt that we all owe for our own creation / development.

That last idea of course runs completely counter to the typical leftist view that is so prevalent in the pop-kulture that people deserve to be passive recipients of everything and everything else that is good and we ostensibly owe nothing whatsoever to the society which created us.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 03:01:03 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2016, 03:09:21 pm »
Well, I think the beliefs I tried to describe in my document ought to appeal to the interest of pretty much anyone who doesn't want to be ruled and controlled by others, but wants to be free to make his or her own decisions to the greatest extent possible.  I'm hoping to get some assistance in getting this whole concept polished and promoted to America in general.

How does this translate into governance?  What "Contract with the American Voter" are you proposing?

Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2016, 03:13:11 pm »
How does this translate into governance?  What "Contract with the American Voter" are you proposing?

I'll answer that if I may be so bold!  Educate the electorate and governance will take care of itself!  I have, in the past, posted many founders quotes that expressed that very thing  and can do so again if you like!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2016, 03:47:22 pm »
I'll answer that if I may be so bold!  Educate the electorate and governance will take care of itself!  I have, in the past, posted many founders quotes that expressed that very thing  and can do so again if you like!

Agree totally. The YouTube video "The Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy" is a perfect example. Simply having a clear understanding of the difference between pure democracy and a republic is an extremely compelling, enlightening experience for most people of normal intellect and intelligence.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2016, 03:50:23 pm »
Agree totally. The YouTube video "The Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy" is a perfect example. Simply having a clear understanding of the difference between pure democracy and a republic is an extremely compelling, enlightening experience for most people of normal intellect and intelligence.

AMEN!  Which is why I have been conducting a personal vendetta against local news readers who continually refer to this country as a "Democracy"!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2016, 03:52:37 pm »
I'll answer that if I may be so bold!  Educate the electorate and governance will take care of itself!  I have, in the past, posted many founders quotes that expressed that very thing  and can do so again if you like!

I agree wholeheartedly with the need to educate the electorate.  But, in today's world, I'm not sure "governance will take care of itself" holds.  Someone has to translate the ideal into the practical---how do these words actually affect the grind and challenges of everyday life?     

Offline Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2016, 03:57:57 pm »
I agree wholeheartedly with the need to educate the electorate.  But, in today's world, I'm not sure "governance will take care of itself" holds.  Someone has to translate the ideal into the practical---how do these words actually affect the grind and challenges of everyday life?   

It took a LONG time for us to reach the thoroughly degraded state we currently find ourselves in and it will take some time to reverse it as well.  As I said up thread, mostly it just needs to be explained to the millions who have never heard anything other than leftist dogma!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2016, 04:10:32 pm »
I agree wholeheartedly with the need to educate the electorate.  But, in today's world, I'm not sure "governance will take care of itself" holds.  Someone has to translate the ideal into the practical---how do these words actually affect the grind and challenges of everyday life?   

That is one of the strengths of the far left and of muzz extemists. They have melded practical and ideological views into a single synthesis. Both leftists and muzz combine spirituality with activism so that they are viewed ( whether rightly or wrongly) as synonymous by many adherents. They feel emotionally connected to what they are working to achieve and that is what powers grass-roots social/ideological movements.

Bucky Fuller noted that most successful political movement had either adjunct groups or their foundations in religious or spiritual movements. One of the problems for conservatism is that unless one is well educated and well read, there is little about conservatism to motivate one to become an activist.

Bucky Fuller proposed in his Critical Path, that a spiritual movement built around the idea that we are all travelers on Spaceship Earth, each a crew member with duties to perform so that the whole thing sails on peacefully and stays repaired and functional, is one way to motivate people to feel part of society.

He furthermore points out that having a long-term goal of establishing a Real Wealth-based economy, in which everyone is essentially born a billionaire with an equal share of the entire wealth of the entire plant to spend in their lifetime, is another great way to get people to feel that their life has some purpose and benevolent goal in mind every time they go to work, lift that bale, tote that barge.

See, in Fuller's future, people work as a reward and privilege because they are the best at what they do.

He figured out that the idea that the world does not have enough to go around for everyone alive to have everything that they need without having to take something from someone else, is  a fiction perpetuated by those who would pit man against man and control things for their own interests. In short, a Real Wealth economy does not have middle men who do nothing but collect interest or other rewards for essentially manipulating a monetized symbolic system of wealth transfer. Investment banks would go the way of the dinosaur because funding would be available to whoever needed it.

Sure there are elements of the notorious Marxist credo in that, but Fuller was way too smart to be seduced or deceived by collectivism. He preached that taken to its natural conclusion, free market capitalist economics combined with technology would eventually free everyone from the necessity of work, (except for a privileged few) just as they would on a space ship with a ready battalion of robots to do most of the physical work.

One does not need to pay for things on a spaceship - one requisitions them from storage because they are NEEDED. So all one must do is show proof to the commander that it is needed. No money need be exchanged.

Even Bernie Sanders people could be brought on board if the ultimate goal of a movement is to create a situation where nobody has to work unless they want to and everyone gets a check for a billion dollars the day that they are born.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 04:16:33 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline EC

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2016, 04:27:28 pm »
You'd want to push the liberty angle pretty hard, too.

Like it or not (I don't because it's BS) conservatism is seen by the younger generation as the "doctrine of No."
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2016, 05:02:08 pm »
How does this translate into governance?  What "Contract with the American Voter" are you proposing?

It doesn't translate directly into governance.  The whole point is to draw people to conservative values who wouldn't consider "conservatism" when it was presented as it has been previously.
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2016, 05:04:38 pm »
I agree wholeheartedly with the need to educate the electorate.  But, in today's world, I'm not sure "governance will take care of itself" holds.  Someone has to translate the ideal into the practical---how do these words actually affect the grind and challenges of everyday life?   

Not everything deals with the minutiae of politics.  This is more philosophical, aspirational.  Once we have people agreeing on principles, we can work on the implementation of those principles in daily life.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline EC

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2016, 05:36:55 pm »
How does this translate into governance?  What "Contract with the American Voter" are you proposing?

As I read Doug's ideas, it seems more like Contract BY the American Voter. The biggest problem with the Contract with America is that it was the employees of the People that wrote it. The boot should, in my opinion, be rather firmly on the other foot.
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