Author Topic: GOP President-Elect Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law  (Read 26181 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP President-Elect Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
« Reply #400 on: November 23, 2016, 01:49:06 pm »
I'm curious. Does your libertarian attitude extend to muslim genital mutiliation, of minors?

They do that supposedly for religious reasons. Keep the state out of their religion?

Likewise child-wives, polygamy etc? For religion's sake?

I don't get the connection.   Marriage is a contract entered into between consenting, competent adults.   Child abuse (whether justified by religion or otherwise) has nothing to do with one's stand on marriage equality, or the equal protection clause of the Constitution.

While I have practical reasons for favoring marriage equality (it encourages monogamy and responsible behavior,  and discourages marriage alternatives like domestic partnerships (see my post above)),  the LEGAL justification is the Constitution's equal protection clause.   It's not a matter of the feds usurping the states' role in legislating the marriage contract, it's the fact that valuable benefits and protections are accorded by the states to such contracts.   It was the arbitrary denial of those benefits and protections that triggered the equal protection violation.

But that's neither here nor there - you want to talk about religious liberty and my "libertarian" attitude.   I recognize the Constitution protects religious liberty,  but as with any other right the issues emerge when that right conflicts with the rights and justifiable expectations other citizens.    Folks have the right to sit at a public lunch counter, or shop at a public store, and not be arbitrarily denied service.   The owner of the lunch counter or store in turn has the right to sell only the goods and services he wants.   A  kosher deli can't be forced, for example, to sell pork.   But if you choose to sell pork, shouldn't you be obliged to sell to all your customers who see the sign on your door?   

I understand the issues at stake in the Christian baker cases, and they're not easy to resolve.   Genital mutilation isn't quite that difficult IMO -  religious liberty doesn't extend so far as to allow a parent to abuse his/her own child.  The technical legal issue is whether a claim of "religion" can trump a law of "general application".   The law generally prohibits child abuse - should a justification of religion provide an exception?   The law generally requires a public lunch counter to not discriminate - but is discrimination okay if justified by "religion"?   And key to resolving such conflicts is determining just who the victim is.   Does the child need protection from its abusive parent?   Is the customer of the bake shop a victim, or is it the baker whose conscience is offended by the customer's request to purchase what he's advertised for sale?         
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 01:51:54 pm by Jazzhead »
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Online Hoodat

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Re: GOP President-Elect Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
« Reply #401 on: November 23, 2016, 03:23:36 pm »
Now that gays have the right to marry,  .  .  .

You keep saying that.  Gays have always had the right to marry.  Sexual preference has nothing to do with this.  It's same-sex marriage, not gay marriage.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: GOP President-Elect Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
« Reply #402 on: November 23, 2016, 03:28:58 pm »
You keep saying that.  Gays have always had the right to marry.  Sexual preference has nothing to do with this.  It's same-sex marriage, not gay marriage.

Yes, I keep saying that.  Because the way you'd prefer things to be, only straights could marry if they wanted the person they marry to be a sexual partner.   Is your sexual relationship with your spouse important to you?  It is to most of us - so why force a gay man to marry a woman?   Do you think that makes things better for the woman, who will also be deprived of a sexual relationship within the bounds of marriage?   

Your view of equal protection is an insult to anyone who considers marriage to be a lifetime commitment to a sexual partner.   
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Online Hoodat

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Re: GOP President-Elect Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
« Reply #403 on: November 23, 2016, 03:49:27 pm »
Yes, I keep saying that.  Because the way you'd prefer things to be, only straights could marry if they wanted the person they marry to be a sexual partner.

I don't need marriage to have sexual partners.  You are injecting one preference into this argument while denying others.  Your equal protection of preference argument is completely bogus.


Is your sexual relationship with your spouse important to you?

Absolutely.  It is the physical and spiritual culmination of two becoming one under the covenant that G-d has created for us. It is a covenant that the Supreme Court decision completely discounts.


why force a gay man to marry a woman?

I am not forcing anyone to do anything.  I am not the one wearing the black robe here, remember?  Besides, this isn't about gay marriage, it's about same-sex marriage.


Do you think that makes things better for the woman, who will also be deprived of a sexual relationship within the bounds of marriage?


Within the bounds of marriage?  Did you really just say that?   Because it is ludicrous to cite the bounds of marriage as some sort of standard at the same time that you are destroying that standard.


Your view of equal protection is an insult to anyone who considers marriage to be a lifetime commitment to a sexual partner.

My view of equal protection is also an insult to anyone considering polygamy, marrying their pets, marrying minors without parental consent, or marrying close relatives.  However, it is equal protection since it does not inject preference into the argument and is applied equally.

That's what equal protection is.  Applying the law equally to everyone.  You simply don't like the law.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline txradioguy

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Re: GOP President-Elect Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
« Reply #404 on: November 28, 2016, 07:48:18 pm »
I don't need marriage to have sexual partners.  You are injecting one preference into this argument while denying others.  Your equal protection of preference argument is completely bogus.


Absolutely.  It is the physical and spiritual culmination of two becoming one under the covenant that G-d has created for us. It is a covenant that the Supreme Court decision completely discounts.


I am not forcing anyone to do anything.  I am not the one wearing the black robe here, remember?  Besides, this isn't about gay marriage, it's about same-sex marriage.

 

Within the bounds of marriage?  Did you really just say that?   Because it is ludicrous to cite the bounds of marriage as some sort of standard at the same time that you are destroying that standard.


My view of equal protection is also an insult to anyone considering polygamy, marrying their pets, marrying minors without parental consent, or marrying close relatives.  However, it is equal protection since it does not inject preference into the argument and is applied equally.

That's what equal protection is.  Applying the law equally to everyone.  You simply don't like the law.

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