Author Topic: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda  (Read 3852 times)

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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2016, 05:00:10 am »

Sink you are going over my head with your knowledge on this subject, as usual. This is all very interesting to me and I understand your argument completely. It is perplexing...


I don't know. We'll just have to wait an see. I don't see how they can resolve the pre-existing without the mandate. If we have the mandate, and the pre-existing, and the age 26 thing, then all we have is Obamacare with a different name. At least the fines go away, I guess.


But that does not correlate with GREAT, GREAT, HEALTH COVERAGE. I tell you folks, it's going to be soo good. It's going to be Yuge! The best health coverage in the world!


You sure have got me thinking about all this.

Think SINGLE PAYER.  Trump has always hinted at covering everybody and single payer is the only way to do it without a mandate that well people buy insurance to cover sick people.
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Offline EC

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2016, 05:09:40 am »
You are over-thinking things.

Why is a mandate needed at all? Because, you say, people won't buy the insurance until they need it. Fair enough.

Ever belonged to an auto club? One that provides roadside assistance and towing for breakdowns? In order to get your car seen to or towed to a garage/home - you have to have been a member for a fixed period first (some are a week, some are a month). Since you never know when your car is going to require their assistance, you are gambling unless you have membership.

Why can't insurance run the same way? Coverage doesn't start until a month or 6 weeks after you get insured? No governemt involvement and, unless people get pretty accurate at predicting 6 weeks out when they are going to need hospitalisation, it's going to have the effect of getting the healthy(er) to sign up anyway.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2016, 05:13:48 am »
You are over-thinking things.

Why is a mandate needed at all? Because, you say, people won't buy the insurance until they need it. Fair enough.

Ever belonged to an auto club? One that provides roadside assistance and towing for breakdowns? In order to get your car seen to or towed to a garage/home - you have to have been a member for a fixed period first (some are a week, some are a month). Since you never know when your car is going to require their assistance, you are gambling unless you have membership.

Why can't insurance run the same way? Coverage doesn't start until a month or 6 weeks after you get insured? No governemt involvement and, unless people get pretty accurate at predicting 6 weeks out when they are going to need hospitalisation, it's going to have the effect of getting the healthy(er) to sign up anyway.

That's denying coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.  Obamacare doesn't do that, and Trump says he won't do that.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:16:40 am by sinkspur »
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Offline EC

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2016, 05:18:57 am »
That's denying coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.  Obamacare doesn't do that, and Trump says he won't do that.


How? They get covered. They just have to wait for 6 weeks as well. Seems a no brainer to me.  :shrug:
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2016, 05:22:30 am »

How? They get covered. They just have to wait for 6 weeks as well. Seems a no brainer to me.  :shrug:

If I have a heart attack, and I don't get reimbursed for emergency room coverage, and doctor's fees and the like for six weeks, then I am being denied coverage for a condition that existed before I was covered. 

Pre-existing condition.  Insurance companies used to do this all the time. Obamacare said "no" and Trump agrees with that.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2016, 05:23:33 am »
Meanwhile, on trade, there's this:

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2016, 05:27:31 am »

@sinkspur


If everyone is forced to have insurance, all the time, then pre-existing conditions cannot exist.
If you've been ordered to have insurance all you life, then nothing can be pre-existing.
The two things negate each other. They cancel each other out.


I would like to hear your comment on this.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2016, 05:27:56 am »
Killing TPP is going to kill jobs here in the US, especially in the export business.

If your job involves exporting product abroad, it is at risk in a Trump administration.
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Offline EC

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2016, 05:30:30 am »
@sinkspur


If everyone is forced to have insurance, all the time, then pre-existing conditions cannot exist.
If you've been ordered to have insurance all you life, then nothing can be pre-existing.
The two things negate each other. They cancel each other out.


I would like to hear your comment on this.

That was sort of my point also. My suggested way, you are risking being uncovered for a 6 week period in your life, assuming you do not let your insurance lapse. If you do let it lapse - hey, I'm conservative. I believe people should pay for their own mistakes and misjudgements.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2016, 05:30:43 am »
@sinkspur


If everyone is forced to have insurance, all the time, then pre-existing conditions cannot exist.
If you've been ordered to have insurance all you life, then nothing can be pre-existing.
The two things negate each other. They cancel each other out.


I would like to hear your comment on this.

If you are forced to have insurance, that is a mandate.  And, yes, pre-existing conditions wouldn't matter.

That's what Obamacare stipulates.  Trump insists that he will not have a refusal of pre-existing conditions.

Therefore, he will have to have mandates in any plan he proposes.

There is no fairy dust that will suddenly make that go away.

Insurance companies can't stay in business if they only cover sick people.  They have to have premiums from those won't get sick any time soon to cover those sick people.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:32:31 am by sinkspur »
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2016, 05:34:45 am »
That was sort of my point also. My suggested way, you are risking being uncovered for a 6 week period in your life, assuming you do not let your insurance lapse. If you do let it lapse - hey, I'm conservative. I believe people should pay for their own mistakes and misjudgements.

But why should I buy coverage if I'm not sick?  If you don't force me to buy coverage when I'm well, I won't buy it. Why should I?
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2016, 05:54:18 am »
Oh, please.  Just about every assf**king we get comes via "Reconciliation".
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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2016, 05:58:18 am »
If you are forced to have insurance, that is a mandate.  And, yes, pre-existing conditions wouldn't matter.

@sinkspur @EC
Ok. So let's look at that one sentence. According to the laws of logic, if Trump is in favor of pre-existing conditions. Then he CANNOT support a mandate. Because if he supported a mandate, pre-existing conditions do not exist.


Even with Single Payer, why would he be discussing pre-existing conditions?
For a pre-existing condition to exist, presupposed that there is a time when you are not covered by insurance.


Based on this analysis. You must be wrong.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 06:00:01 am by 240B »
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2016, 06:00:47 am »
Yes.  They want "tax credits" instead of subsidies.  But tax credits don't help those who don't pay taxes.

This is quite a conundrum for the GOP.

I've always thought Obamacare was set up to introduce single payer.  And that may be the only alternative.  Trump likes that, though.
A Tax credit doesn't do anything for cash flow, either, even if it is refundable. There are plenty of folks who live with a thin enough margin that they won't be able to wait until the end of the year to collect a tax credit.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2016, 06:05:40 am »
You are over-thinking things.

Why is a mandate needed at all? Because, you say, people won't buy the insurance until they need it. Fair enough.

Ever belonged to an auto club? One that provides roadside assistance and towing for breakdowns? In order to get your car seen to or towed to a garage/home - you have to have been a member for a fixed period first (some are a week, some are a month). Since you never know when your car is going to require their assistance, you are gambling unless you have membership.

Why can't insurance run the same way? Coverage doesn't start until a month or 6 weeks after you get insured? No government involvement and, unless people get pretty accurate at predicting 6 weeks out when they are going to need hospitalisation, it's going to have the effect of getting the healthy(er) to sign up anyway.

You are missing the point. Should you be able to buy home fire insurance after your house burns down? If you could, there would be no reason to buy it before hand waiting period or not. In addition it wouldn't be insurance at all. If you are going to cover home owners after the damage is done, you would have to mandate everyone buy fire insurance period otherwise no one would buy it and there would be no insurance companies to buy it from even if you wanted to.

Healthcare is no different.

Offline DB

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2016, 06:13:09 am »
@sinkspur @EC
Ok. So let's look at that one sentence. According to the laws of logic, if Trump is in favor of pre-existing conditions. Then he CANNOT support a mandate. Because if he supported a mandate, pre-existing conditions do not exist.


Even with Single Payer, why would he be discussing pre-existing conditions?
For a pre-existing condition to exist, presupposed that there is a time when you are not covered by insurance.


Based on this analysis. You must be wrong.

No. If you are in favor of preexisting conditions being covered then you have to accept the mandate as a consequence. That is basic logic. Trump is trying to have it both ways. He wants to offer the good part - coverage of preexisting conditions without the required bad part of mandating everyone buy health insurance either through an insurance company or through government taxation.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2016, 06:17:03 am »
No. If you are in favor of preexisting conditions being covered then you have to accept the mandate as a consequence. That is basic logic. Trump is trying to have it both ways. He wants to offer the good part - coverage of preexisting conditions without the required bad part of mandating everyone buy health insurance either through an insurance company or through government taxation.
There's the rub, though. So many people who were covered have lost coverage that would have continued to cover those conditions. Some even lost the jobs that went with the coverage, and in some cases the insurance company quit offering any coverage at all.

After that debacle, anyone who lost their insurance that covered health problems which existed prior to their loss of coverage is in a bind, especially if the condition is ongoing.

No coverage could be lethal, and the loss of coverage wasn't their choice at all.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2016, 06:29:54 am »
There's the rub, though. So many people who were covered have lost coverage that would have continued to cover those conditions. Some even lost the jobs that went with the coverage, and in some cases the insurance company quit offering any coverage at all.

After that debacle, anyone who lost their insurance that covered health problems which existed prior to their loss of coverage is in a bind, especially if the condition is ongoing.

No coverage could be lethal, and the loss of coverage wasn't their choice at all.

I agree. Its a train wreck that should have been avoided. Part of my point is I don't think there's any way to put the genie back in the bottle and if Republicans make changes without really fixing the root issues they're going to own the Democrat's train wreck from there on.

Offline libertybele

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2016, 06:33:50 am »
Trump's healthcare plan is still up on his campaign website. Since I was never a Trump supporter, this is the first time I've read through his plan and there is mention of the impact of illegal immigration on our society and our healthcare system.  I tend to agree.  Illegal immigration has had a tremendous negative impact on our society in general.  However, the reality is, unless he deports the millions of illegals that are here, that economic burden will continue to exist. 

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/healthcare-reform
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Offline libertybele

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2016, 06:37:15 am »
I agree. Its a train wreck that should have been avoided. Part of my point is I don't think there's any way to put the genie back in the bottle and if Republicans make changes without really fixing the root issues they're going to own the Democrat's train wreck from there on.

Some Republicans have been working on this issue.  Cruz laid out his healthcare plan over a year ago.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/234499-cruz-unveils-obamacare-alternative
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2016, 10:17:10 am »
If Trump does away with the mandate, insurance companies will drop out of any plan because it will break 'em.



Not really. Insurance companies have the power to bitch slap hospitals into line by demanding they lower prices of face payment boycotts. If they ever have to face a choice between charging 18 bucks for a clean towel and not getting paid anything for it,or charging 2 bucks and getting paid 2 bucks,they will learn to see reason.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 10:17:31 am by sneakypete »
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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2016, 11:27:11 am »
I suspect, behind closed doors, Trump knows you have to have the mandate in order to keep the pre existing coverage.

Remember when he told Anderson Cooper he liked the mandate in ObamaCare?
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2016, 05:34:05 pm »
I agree. Its a train wreck that should have been avoided. Part of my point is I don't think there's any way to put the genie back in the bottle and if Republicans make changes without really fixing the root issues they're going to own the Democrat's train wreck from there on.
What irritates me is that it probably would have been cheaper to leave the old system in place and just pay for those who didn't have insurance or couldn't afford care--which we did to a point, anyway.

What was sold to the American people (or used as a suppository) wasn't health CARE...
it was universal health INSURANCE.

Anyone who does the math, who is healthy, will tell you in a heartbeat that the cost of insurance will far outstrip the cost of actual health CARE.

Those were the calculations we made when insurance for my family of four would have cost 18K a year (plus deductibles and copays), and actual health care over five years had been under 7K a year, paying out of pocket all the way.

Beyond that factoring, though, comes the unexpected misfortune, injury, or illness, and these are the reason people carry insurance--effectively 'betting' the worst will happen, and that their costs for care would have exceeded the cost of the insurance, much the same as carrying full coverage on a vehicle, betting it will be damaged, or hedging the investment in case of theft or destruction.

For those who did not have insurance under that system, it likely would have been cheaper to establish a base rate which covered the expenses of the hospitals or doctors, equipment, etc. at a reduced but not nonprofit rate, which paid for the costs of services plus a small profit for the hospitals or medical facilities. It is profit which provides for maintenance and the next upgrade in equipment or facilities, and if it isn't there, care will be stuck in a rut or degrade.

But no, by its nature, providing health insurance to the masses adds in another layer of expense (and profit) instead of just paying the bill. After all, the insurance people need to be paid, too, and their equipment will need to be upgraded, maintained, and replaced as well.  So the option of paying for insurance is going to be more exoensive than paying for care at the onset, because there is another layer of middlemen to take a cut.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sinkspur

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2016, 05:46:36 pm »
@sinkspur @EC
Ok. So let's look at that one sentence. According to the laws of logic, if Trump is in favor of pre-existing conditions. Then he CANNOT support a mandate. Because if he supported a mandate, pre-existing conditions do not exist.


Even with Single Payer, why would he be discussing pre-existing conditions?
For a pre-existing condition to exist, presupposed that there is a time when you are not covered by insurance.


Based on this analysis. You must be wrong.

If Trump is an favor of not refusing to cover those with pre-existing conditions, then he MUST be in favor of mandates.

Otherwise, you and I would only buy insurance when we get sick. 

Do you not see that?
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Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: GOP To Use Previously Unheard Of Tactic To Slam Dunk Trump Agenda
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2016, 06:28:27 pm »
McTurtle doesn't have the gonads to take the wrath of Schumer! So nothing will happen. Call me skeptical
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