Author Topic: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition  (Read 8777 times)

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2016, 07:28:00 pm »
Simple solution. Said it for years. Oil is a national security issue. Thats not remotely arguable. Oil infrastructure is obviously a NatSec issue as well. Same for any energy.

Put the guard on site, arm them and treat protestors as jihadi terrorists the second they violate the law or in any way interfere with the country's national security.
The outsiders pushing this, (most of the people there, but likely the ones really pushing people) want another 'Wounded Knee' so they can play the race card, too--at least that is my guess. They aren't there because they 'care' about the Tribe, they are there to make money, either because they 'care' and are there, or in an attempt to extract some sort of payment ("settlement") to go away. Some true believers may think oil is evil, do the whole dirt worship thing, but I think this is just an old fashioned holdup that got out of hand.
Calling out the National Guard has its problems, with locals facing locals. Not pretty, even if the locals in the protest camp are relatively few compared to the rest.
For the real ecowhacko, this will go on their resume like a campaign ribbon, and arrests are additional bars on the rack, but to the rest of us this is a pain in the arse, especially for local residents, and it is costing a fortune, holding up jobs, and costing everyone in the state tax money. Lovely. It is a testament to the law abiding nature of people in the State that no one has gathered up a group and taken things into their own hands, and the fundamental stoicism that waits for winter to settle in. Besides, no one here would want to put local LEOs in the unenviable position of having to defend the protesters against their own people.
It'll wait. Winter's coming.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2016, 07:31:30 pm »

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2016, 07:41:26 pm »
The outsiders pushing this, (most of the people there, but likely the ones really pushing people) want another 'Wounded Knee' so they can play the race card, too--at least that is my guess. They aren't there because they 'care' about the Tribe, they are there to make money, either because they 'care' and are there, or in an attempt to extract some sort of payment ("settlement") to go away. Some true believers may think oil is evil, do the whole dirt worship thing, but I think this is just an old fashioned holdup that got out of hand.
Calling out the National Guard has its problems, with locals facing locals. Not pretty, even if the locals in the protest camp are relatively few compared to the rest.
For the real ecowhacko, this will go on their resume like a campaign ribbon, and arrests are additional bars on the rack, but to the rest of us this is a pain in the arse, especially for local residents, and it is costing a fortune, holding up jobs, and costing everyone in the state tax money. Lovely. It is a testament to the law abiding nature of people in the State that no one has gathered up a group and taken things into their own hands, and the fundamental stoicism that waits for winter to settle in. Besides, no one here would want to put local LEOs in the unenviable position of having to defend the protesters against their own people.
It'll wait. Winter's coming.

Whatever we do to the snowflakes, they are going to scream racism/sexism/homoism/purple penguinism. We have to accept that and let them scream. If they cause an issue, so be it. The reality as that as bad as it will be, we cannot let the left hold America hostage any longer. It has to begin somewhere because they will never stop/be talked out of it/whatever.

Just get the guard set up on site doing nothing. THEN announce the new rules on TV and all other media with saturation coverage telling the world, "This is on them". Let them scream. At the designated deadline, the guard goes active.

Give them their chance with ample time, then the party ends.

Theywill then think twice before doing it again. Fallout? Of course. Then they will go back to their basements after a couple failed attempts elsewhere when the process repeats.

Go in with RICO and nail every funder and organizer.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2016, 07:54:37 pm »
Just get the guard set up on site doing nothing. THEN announce the new rules on TV and all other media with saturation coverage telling the world, "This is on them". Let them scream. At the designated deadline, the guard goes active.

Disagree.  As a wise woman once said:



Obama will do nothing.  Trump couldn't do anything until late January (when the cold most likely would have chased them away in any case).

Were Trump to send in the military, it would simply confirm to those already in the throes of the vapors, that Trump is exactly what they say he is.  It would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2016, 08:00:24 pm »
Disagree.  As a wise woman once said:



Obama will do nothing.  Trump couldn't do anything until late January (when the cold most likely would have chased them away in any case).

Were Trump to send in the military, it would simply confirm to those already in the throes of the vapors, that Trump is exactly what they say he is.  It would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.

I really don't see many options. I'm sure you don't honestly believe they will leave (or not show up come spring again so the problem is still there. It has to be solved. So all kidding aside, what options are there? And consider I don't just mean up there. I mean with every situation like this and there will be a lot more coming as now there is no Obama to simply go write an EO or will there be an EPA/Interior person on their payroll.

So what realistically can be done without getting serious with these liberals when they break the law?

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #80 on: November 11, 2016, 08:09:48 pm »
I really don't see many options. I'm sure you don't honestly believe they will leave (or not show up come spring again so the problem is still there. It has to be solved. So all kidding aside, what options are there? And consider I don't just mean up there. I mean with every situation like this and there will be a lot more coming as now there is no Obama to simply go write an EO or will there be an EPA/Interior person on their payroll.

So what realistically can be done without getting serious with these liberals when they break the law?

The only reason it gets attention now, is because the social media echo chamber has made it a big deal.  But ultimately this stuff ends up being counter-productive for them. 

The best thing to do is ignore them as much as possible; taking the offensive -- especially using soldiers or SWAT -- gives them exactly what they want and need.  Arrest them for actual crimes, but otherwise let them yell.

The winter will come, and it will be long and cold.  Their ardor will have died down by May....
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 08:10:33 pm by r9etb »

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2016, 08:15:19 pm »
The only reason it gets attention now, is because the social media echo chamber has made it a big deal.  But ultimately this stuff ends up being counter-productive for them. 

The best thing to do is ignore them as much as possible; taking the offensive -- especially using soldiers or SWAT -- gives them exactly what they want and need.

The winter will come, and it will be long and cold.  Their ardor will have died down by May....

So how long do we continue to delay projects in 6 month blocks? That is functionally identical to Baltamore's 'give them space to destroy".

And then what about the next one? How long there? The original year and when they come back after a rainstorm, a month more?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here or Stalin. But these things need to be addressed definitively by people in power. You cannot reward bad behavior like this as it only breeds more. And without the protection of Obama, they are going to ramp way up until it is stopped cold. We cannot kick the can because the left/media cries about it. We have to have a functioning system of government and that included oil/mining/logging/shipping/transportation.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2016, 08:25:08 pm »
The only reason it gets attention now, is because the social media echo chamber has made it a big deal.  But ultimately this stuff ends up being counter-productive for them. 

The best thing to do is ignore them as much as possible; taking the offensive -- especially using soldiers or SWAT -- gives them exactly what they want and need.  Arrest them for actual crimes, but otherwise let them yell.

The winter will come, and it will be long and cold.  Their ardor will have died down by May....

As a for instance, have a read through the following

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/03/news/mn-23861

These people sat through a decade of 120+ degree summers until they stopped the site.

Offline bilo

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2016, 08:29:54 pm »
As Trump picks his people my anxiety subsides.


My biggest fear is that he fills his cabinet with Alex Jones loonies or his family members (as his son-in-law was floated as a name for something or other last night).

It's early, but it sure looks like he's got the right people in mind.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2016, 08:42:26 pm »
So how long do we continue to delay projects in 6 month blocks? That is functionally identical to Baltamore's 'give them space to destroy".

And then what about the next one? How long there? The original year and when they come back after a rainstorm, a month more?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here or Stalin. But these things need to be addressed definitively by people in power. You cannot reward bad behavior like this as it only breeds more. And without the protection of Obama, they are going to ramp way up until it is stopped cold. We cannot kick the can because the left/media cries about it. We have to have a functioning system of government and that included oil/mining/logging/shipping/transportation.

More or less true.  But as the green lady said above, these things must be done delicately.  Ham-fisted responses -- which they're hoping for! -- will make things even worse.

In cases like this, triangulation is the proper approach. 

First, acknowledge that, hidden behind the protests, there are some legitimate concerns -- because there probably are.  Next, find somebody on the other side who's reasonable -- and there will be such -- and make him the de facto spokesman for the movement.  Air concerns and arguments on both sides, and actually attempt to find middle ground -- it's almost certainly there.

This approach has worked well in other places.  For example, the logging industry in Oregon was hamstrung like this until a series of enormous fires brought people to their senses.  The enviros' total opposition to logging had created a tremendous fuel load, which of course burned.  But they had legitimate grievances against the logging practices of the time (vast clear-cutting operations). 

After the fires, sensible adults on all sides came together to work out a better way of doing things.  As it stands now, the Forest Service, logging concerns, and the enviros seem to have actually done good work in coming up with a workable compromise solution.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be tried in ND as well. 

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2016, 08:43:19 pm »
As a for instance, have a read through the following

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/03/news/mn-23861

These people sat through a decade of 120+ degree summers until they stopped the site.

You can sit through 120+ degrees.  You can't sit through 40- below.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2016, 08:49:43 pm »
You can sit through 120+ degrees.  You can't sit through 40- below.

I have lived in upstate NY in 50-60 below winters. I used to stay up all night back in high school keeping my uncles log truck running with space heaters on the tanks so the fuel didn't gel and he could get to the mill. I live 20 miles from the site of the article I linked. My point was they kept at it. They did not get bored and go home.

And I assure you that you will not survive long sitting in the sun here during July/August. Every year a couple tourists end up dead after a few hours doing something they shouldn't outside.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2016, 08:55:09 pm »
I have lived in upstate NY in 50-60 below winters. I used to stay up all night back in high school keeping my uncles log truck running with space heaters on the tanks so the fuel didn't gel and he could get to the mill. I live 20 miles from the site of the article I linked. My point was they kept at it. They did not get bored and go home.

And I assure you that you will not survive long sitting in the sun here during July/August. Every year a couple tourists end up dead after a few hours doing something they shouldn't outside.

Well, you're a hardy fellow, then -- but you had the advantage of a nice, warm log truck to sit in.  You're not gonna get a bunch of folks to camp out for the duration of a North Dakota winter.

Even so, the solution is as I said: triangulate.

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2016, 08:59:44 pm »
Perhaps.  As it stands, though, there is a strong alliance between EPA regulators and activist groups that must be dealt with; apparently in many cases the activist groups are called upon to dictate the fundamentals of environmental regulation.  See, e.g., https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/

Nothing will change in DC unless and until the regulatory machinery can be made subject to actual accountability.

One way would be to pass a law that all proposed agency regulations, both new regs and changes to existing regs, will henceforth be considered bills put before Congress, and will not go into effect until approved by both houses.  That would slow things down, and would force legislators to be politically responsible for the bureaucratic regs.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2016, 09:04:04 pm »
One way would be to pass a law that all proposed agency regulations, both new regs and changes to existing regs, will henceforth be considered bills put before Congress, and will not go into effect until approved by both houses.  That would slow things down, and would force legislators to be politically responsible for the bureaucratic regs.

Not a bad idea.  As it stands now, a lot of legislation authorizes the regulatory agencies to make policies to implement the law ... which is fine, so far as it goes, but the resultant regulations never come back for approval.

Offline ABX

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2016, 09:04:21 pm »
Ebell is a decent choice. He is head of the Competitive Enterprise Institute and is a free market solutions proponent.


Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2016, 09:07:21 pm »
Ebell is a decent choice. He is head of the Competitive Enterprise Institute and is a free market solutions proponent.

Probably so -- assuming he can survive the confirmation process.  I think EPA is one of those appointments that the Democrats will go all-out to get their way.

To get through it, Ebell will have to make a very good case that he's not a "denier," but instead is a scientist; and that as a scientist he will insist on hard science to justify whatever draconian regulations are being proposed.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2016, 09:09:14 pm »
Well, you're a hardy fellow, then -- but you had the advantage of a nice, warm log truck to sit in.  You're not gonna get a bunch of folks to camp out for the duration of a North Dakota winter.

Even so, the solution is as I said: triangulate.

Not that hardy. The heater does not work when it's that cold ;)

The thing is, the indians and their supporters will do there what they did here. Bring in motorhomes. Earth first does/did the same thing in the PNW. Sure some leave but the core group gets the party going.

I'm not against triangulation per se. But the thing is that its still more of the same thing that has been done for years. It does not work and it actually benefits them because it always delays, not fixes while they stall with 'talks'. There's nothing new with that strategy and it is they that triangulate us. There are countless examples especially in the PNW and the California deserts. It goes back at least 3 decades.

So far on this site I have seen people say elect Trump because Trump is going to build a wall and said so before the election and say it's stupid/he cant because reasons since election night.

I have seen people say elect trump because he's going to bring Hillary to justice and said so before the election and say 'thats stupid, it will endanger his agenda' once he got elected.

Now there's this and I am sure someone would also apply it to BLM and the other liberal 'protestors'. Before the election we had to elect trump because he was a hard ass that would never let these terrorists get away with shutting down infrastructure, but now he can't because the media would say bad things.

My question is why did people elect him if they don't want him to do what he said he was going to? surely people understand the screaming and violence that will happen no matter what he does, peacefully with words or with law enforcement?


Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2016, 09:17:48 pm »
Hiring a scientist for the transition team is nice, but he isn't even sworn in yet.

That's right. This is just the transition team, without any policy. At best it's a 'thumb up' and a 'big shrug'...
Rubber ain't anywhere near hitting the road.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2016, 09:17:54 pm »
My question is why did people elect him if they don't want him to do what he said he was going to? surely people understand the screaming and violence that will happen no matter what he does, peacefully with words or with law enforcement?

Look: elections are all about promises.  Politics is about what's possible.

Using force on these guys will only make things worse. 

For whatever reasons, people take protests like this seriously, if only in abstract because they only know what a slanted social media is telling them.  To make the protesters into victims is the last thing you want to do.  Classic guerilla (and Alinsky) tactics include persuading the authorities to meet civil disobedience with force.

The only long-term solution is to establish an MO based on reasonable dialogue with rational representatives.  The ardent activists can't compete with it.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2016, 09:20:23 pm »
Look: elections are all about promises.  Politics is about what's possible.

Using force on these guys will only make things worse. 

For whatever reasons, people take protests like this seriously, if only in abstract because they only know what a slanted social media is telling them.  To make the protesters into victims is the last thing you want to do.  Classic guerilla (and Alinsky) tactics include persuading the authorities to meet civil disobedience with force.

The only long-term solution is to establish an MO based on reasonable dialogue with rational representatives.  The ardent activists can't compete with it.

Trump thinks of promises as the starting points in a negotiation.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2016, 09:23:26 pm »
Whatever we do to the snowflakes, they are going to scream racism/sexism/homoism/purple penguinism. We have to accept that and let them scream. If they cause an issue, so be it. The reality as that as bad as it will be, we cannot let the left hold America hostage any longer. It has to begin somewhere because they will never stop/be talked out of it/whatever.

Just get the guard set up on site doing nothing. THEN announce the new rules on TV and all other media with saturation coverage telling the world, "This is on them". Let them scream. At the designated deadline, the guard goes active.

Give them their chance with ample time, then the party ends.

Theywill then think twice before doing it again. Fallout? Of course. Then they will go back to their basements after a couple failed attempts elsewhere when the process repeats.

Go in with RICO and nail every funder and organizer.
Something not readily apparent, but a quirk of demographics here, nonetheless. While I am not certain of the demographics in the National Guard, the Tribes here hold special honor for those who serve in the armed forces, and I doubt the guard is any exception. The possibility of ordering someone in uniform to face down their Tribal Elders exists. That, frankly, is a severe test of loyalties I would not want to impose on anyone. Like I said. Winter's coming.

The people who have the proverbial ball in their court are the US Army Corps of Engineers. Their past behaviour toward people on Corps land would indicate they are playing favorites now, permitting a group larger than the population of many county seats in ND to camp on Corps land when most folks get run off it if they are just down at the beach, swimming.

The disparity in that treatment is glaring to any who have been so run off, and I'd wager next summer there will be folks out at those areas with brand new signs saying things like "Keep water natural" or some meaningless tripe to see if they get run off (while the rest of the clan is swimming or whatever).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2016, 09:27:08 pm »
Trump thinks of promises as the starting points in a negotiation.

That's true -- I think he even said so during the campaign.  As a negotiator, he expects his deals to end up somewhere in the middle.

If he's serious about putting Ebell into the EPA, then it's encouraging that his environmental negotiations would start from a rational place.

However, if he's negotiating about who gets nominated to head EPA, then he's probably hoping to end up with a squish.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2016, 09:28:50 pm »
Look: elections are all about promises.  Politics is about what's possible.

Using force on these guys will only make things worse. 

For whatever reasons, people take protests like this seriously, if only in abstract because they only know what a slanted social media is telling them.  To make the protesters into victims is the last thing you want to do.  Classic guerilla (and Alinsky) tactics include persuading the authorities to meet civil disobedience with force.

The only long-term solution is to establish an MO based on reasonable dialogue with rational representatives.  The ardent activists can't compete with it.

OK, serious question. When liberals are unreasonable, which they are, and in charge of bith running and funding these protests, which they are, with whom does one have reasonable dialog? You won't find it in the only two possible sources of influence because they are hard leftists. If politics is about the possible, then this is an impossible situation.

If you go outside their core group, then you have yet another layer of complexity to fight against and only strengthened their numbers while adding yet more time to the delay.

I get that this is not easy. But it is long past time to put feet down on the left. Rational have searched for years and found no dialog. Only more delays, more protests and more lawsuits resulting in more power for the left. It's time to stop talking and start applying the legal system.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2016, 09:36:41 pm »
OK, serious question. When liberals are unreasonable, which they are, and in charge of both running and funding these protests, which they are, with whom does one have reasonable dialog? You won't find it in the only two possible sources of influence because they are hard leftists. If politics is about the possible, then this is an impossible situation.

You've hit on the root of the problem.  There may be no solution until the situation is publicly named, and publicly remedied.  Force is not an option -- it shuts out any solutions short of force.

I don't have a global answer; but I have shown an example of how the process can and does work.  If there is a government solution to these protests, then Trump and his minions have the option of naming somebody to deal with the problem.  And that person has the freedom to decide with whom he will negotiate.  That gets around the systemic bias, because the person authorized to negotiate, also gets to name the team who will carry out the details.