“Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.

[roamer_1]

The Moral/Philosophical dimensions are an essential part of choosing who I will give my approval to as a head of state, especially when that person is to represent all my country stands for for the next however many years they are in office, because they will represent to other nations the moral and philosophical dimensions of  a country that is considered 'the leader of the free world'.

@LateForLunch

@Smokin Joe , It really comes as no surprise to me that I am once again in broad agreement with your position, albeit with even more emphasis.

Indeed moral principle is necessarily the primary principle of them all. If one is of a low character, subject to changing winds and emotions, prone to lying and vindictiveness, How can one trust a single thing put forth as true? He can promise the world, the sun and the moon, but what does one use as a guarantee against that promise, if one cannot take the man at his word?

FIRST, I must know I can believe a man. Then I can guarantee his promise against his record - That he keeps his word, must necessarily be in that record, and it will be, if he is true.

THEN and ONLY THEN, can one move on to the rest of the principles of Conservatism, having established trust in the man's honor.

Needless to say, I find no value in Trump's promises, as he has proven himself to be of remarkably low character, and cannot be trusted in any condition.

I will vote Castle tomorrow.

[roamer_1]

BTW, Great article @massadvj
Well tailored and thought out.
However, it does little to change my mind.

I remain exactly where I was when Trump threw his hat in the ring:
Rule #1: A man of low character cannot be trusted.

One can use all the turd-polish there is, but that fact remains. If I were to endorse him, what he will do will be done in my name, and I cannot be coerced or cajoled into accepting that responsibility.
 
Better the enemy outside the gate than the enemy within.

[INVAR]

You sound really, really angry Invar which is strange because my tone was very civil and contained no anger….

Civil?     Oh yes, it is the very epitome of 'civil' when you call people who disagree with you 'fanatics'. 

But then, bullies who poke people in their eyes and laugh about their reaction, often feign surprise and exclaim that they didn't do nuffin' wrong when the teach asks how they ended up with a busted face the moment someone has had enough.

I understand both of their anger….Invar may be intensely frustrated because he find no amelioration to his central concerns in voting this year.

You understand jack squat Squanto.  I'm tired and angry from you people telling us whom we have to vote for, or ridicule those we are voting for.   I'm tired of you people who pretend to be patriots demand everyone vote for Trump or suffer 'punishment' and all the other threats both subtle and direct.  I'm tired of you people pretending to psychiatrists and offer the board your Holiday Inn Express evaluation of everyone who is not voting for your prince as being mentally unstable and unfit.

I'm pissed at you Trump militants, because it is not enough for you to let us vote for whom we deem serves our principles best - you have to ridicule, castigate, and  insult our principles. You berate and attempt to intimidate and shame us into ceding the board and the election to whom you demand everyone must support and bow down to.  You Illustrate that your understanding of liberty is as thin as your skins and no different than the tyrants you people supposedly oppose.

I'm pissed at you - because you exhibit all the qualities of a Class A Jerk, and pretend to hide it under mountainous word salads of adjectives, analysis and prose to mask the insults and attempt to create the illusion you are a reasonable gent - when you are anything but.

None of this crap would have happened if you people would have had the common courtesy to argue the merits or lack thereof of your chosen, and let us vote for whom our conscience dictates rather than ascribe blanket accusations of everything from selfishness and self-righteousness to treason.

There are people on this board who have voiced their plans to vote Trump, including one of the owners without the need for the rebuke you people have begged for nearly every time you post.  They understood why a lot of us will not vote as they are - and they did not engage in the efforts to slander, declare us fanatics and so forth.  They understood the liberty to let each of us choose as our conscience dictates, and if persuasion of their points would not convince - they were content enough to simply recognize our choice is as valid as theirs to make.

Not so for you and yours.  You wouldn't take their example to heart, even when asked to.  No - somehow Trump's faithful have convinced themselves we are an enemy to be fought and hunted and punished and 'held responsible if Trump loses'.

The anger is because of the behavior of people like you, it had nothing to do with the fact we had two bozos foisted on the public as our 'only choice'.  It had everything to do with your posts and responses to everyone who is not voting for your prince.

I do not give a crap if you vote for Trump.  I'm not. 

[jpsb]

JPSB may be feeling an equal measure of frustrated rage for different reasons, in that the anti-Trumpsters have realized the absolute best hopes of the democrats and the absolute worst fears of the Trump supporters in taking what appears to be an unshakably strident stance against any consideration of accepting Trump as a viable alternative to Hill-O-Lies, even against what appears to he, I and others, strong evidence to support the possibility that he might be just that.

Well I just don't like being called a punk, soon you will find out that that particular poster is a really nasty person. Constantly playing the victim with industrial level of fake outrage. I try to be civil, some of the NeverTrumper here don't. After the election I will have nothing to do with them.

[LMAO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPN3Fv2aJhE

lol

Hopefully, once people get over their hurt feelings and anger of what will happen tonight this will be the case in the next year. Although this election has been full of surprises so we will see what happens tonight

On the very basic level, both Clinton and Trump are bad for our economy and fiscal situation

[Rivergirl]

Yesterday the financial markets around the world 'voted' for Hillary.   Within moments of Comey's latest letter to Congress the US stock market futures rose 250 pts.

[aligncare]

@Jazzhead

I look at his family, his children, his businesses and I do not see unstable at all. I see great success.

Not only do #NeverTrumpers indulge themselves in false narratives about Mr. Trump, they haven't even the slightest curiosity that they might possibly be trading in lies.

But, this is politics. I understand how the game is played.

Go Trump-Pence! On to Victory!

[Jazzhead]

This may be the most dispiriting election of my lifetime,  but this morning the sun rose gloriously in a clear sky,  with the crisp dry air making a showcase of God's creation.    I walked the half-mile to my voting place,  marveling at the incongruity of it all.   Such gloom in the midst of such beauty.   

I've kept my mind open to the end,  a lifetime's history of party loyalty put to the test.   But here in Pennsylvania,  the luxury of neutrality just doesn't exist;  the sleep of the just (if such sleep there be) will require me to first take a stand.   As I turned off the main road to the country lane where the stone memorial to the dead of the Great War houses our town's polling place,  I took out the Wall Street Journal tucked under my arm and thought,  maybe there's a germ of inspiration here.   I'd seen Gary Johnson's billboard this weekend, going down to Maryland to visit my dying father: "A wasted vote is a vote that you don't believe in".

Neither my dad or I have ever failed to vote.  For my dad, there won't be another one.  He voted absentee,  but declined to say who for.   I didn't press him.   We all must live with our families, our communities, and, ultimately, with ourselves.

I read Bret Stephens column,  who opined that "moral clarity and moral equivalence have become interchangeable concepts in today's GOP".   And this:

     

What isn't normal is the ease with which so many conservative leaders, political and intellectual, have prostrated themselves before Mr. Trump simply because he won.  In July, Dan Senor, a senior advisor to Mitt Romney in 2012, tweeted that he had once commiserated with a Midwestern governor about how unacceptable Mr. Trump was as the GOP nominee.  That governor?  Mike Pence.

And, finally, this:

 

Donald Trump is a demagogue.  Period.  The fervor of his crowds recalls Nasser's Egypt.  His convictions are illiberal.  His manners are disgusting.  His temper is frightening.  It ought to have been the job of thoughtful conservatives in this season to point this out, time and again.  If they can't do that, what good are they?   

Well,  I've been pointing it out for a while now.   And now is the time for words to be matched with deeds.   I voted straight GOP with one exception.   I voted to defeat Donald Trump in a swing state.   Dad,  I hope you understand - you raised me to be this way.     

[massadvj]

BTW, Great article @massadvj
Well tailored and thought out.
However, it does little to change my mind.

I remain exactly where I was when Trump threw his hat in the ring:
Rule #1: A man of low character cannot be trusted.

One can use all the turd-polish there is, but that fact remains. If I were to endorse him, what he will do will be done in my name, and I cannot be coerced or cajoled into accepting that responsibility.
 
Better the enemy outside the gate than the enemy within.

I have many friends who are voting for Trump (some who even admire him) and many friends who are not.  I respect everyone's opinion on this, and have done my best to stay friends with everyone.  So put away the turd polish, my friend.  You've no need for it.

[LateForLunch]

This may be the most dispiriting election of my lifetime,  but this morning the sun rose gloriously in a clear sky,  with the crisp dry air making a showcase of God's creation.    I walked the half-mile to my voting place,  marveling at the incongruity of it all.   Such gloom in the midst of such beauty.   

I've kept my mind open to the end,  a lifetime's history of party loyalty put to the test.   But here in Pennsylvania,  the luxury of neutrality just doesn't exist;  the sleep of the just (if such sleep there be) will require me to first take a stand.   As I turned off the main road to the country lane where the stone memorial to the dead of the Great War houses our town's polling place,  I took out the Wall Street Journal tucked under my arm and thought,  maybe there's a germ of inspiration here.   I'd seen Gary Johnson's billboard this weekend, going down to Maryland to visit my dying father: "A wasted vote is a vote that you don't believe in".

Neither my dad or I have ever failed to vote.  For my dad, there won't be another one.  He voted absentee,  but declined to say who for.   I didn't press him.   We all must live with our families, our communities, and, ultimately, with ourselves.

I read Bret Stephens column,  who opined that "moral clarity and moral equivalence have become interchangeable concepts in today's GOP".   And this:

       

And, finally, this:

 
Well,  I've been pointing it out for a while now.   And now is the time for words to be matched with deeds.   I voted straight GOP with one exception.   I voted to defeat Donald Trump in a swing state.   Dad,  I hope you understand - you raised me to be this way.   

Twisted. Sure the election is all but over, yet my eyes have been opened to the fact that some of the people who post on this forum are so far out there in their POV about the purpose for voting and about how they make decisions about voting that I feel like they are from another planet. A planet where emotions and defending personal opinions like raptor eggs, are both more important than the best interests of the nation.

[musiclady]

Twisted. Sure the election is all but over, yet my eyes have been opened to the fact that some of the people who post on this forum are so far out there in their POV about the purpose for voting and about how they make decisions about voting that I feel like they are from another planet. A planet where emotions and defending personal opinions like raptor eggs, are both more important than the best interests of the nation.

You're not the only one who believes that morality and Constitutional principles are "far out there."

The entire Democrat party, and every leftist on the planet agrees with you.

Kudos on the company you keep..... 

[musiclady]

lol

Hopefully, once people get over their hurt feelings and anger of what will happen tonight this will be the case in the next year. Although this election has been full of surprises so we will see what happens tonight

On the very basic level, both Clinton and Trump are bad for our economy and fiscal situation

And even worse for the ethical state of our country.

We could not have a worse situation before us, regardless of the outcome.

[Jazzhead]

Twisted. Sure the election is all but over, yet my eyes have been opened to the fact that some of the people who post on this forum are so far out there in their POV about the purpose for voting and about how they make decisions about voting that I feel like they are from another planet. A planet where emotions and defending personal opinions like raptor eggs, are both more important than the best interests of the nation.

LFL,  of course I voted consistent with the best interests of the nation, as I see it.  Hell,  I sure didn't vote in my own best interest.    I think Trump is existentially dangerous.  I understand you disagree.   But your accusation that my motivations are "twisted" is a cheap shot.   Shall I call you a partisan whore?     

[LateForLunch]

LFL,  of course I voted consistent with the best interests of the nation, as I see it.  Hell,  I sure didn't vote in my own best interest.    I think Trump is existentially dangerous.  I understand you disagree.   But your accusation that my motivations are "twisted" is a cheap shot.   Shall I call you a partisan whore?     

Fair enough. You may call me anything you like except Late for Lunch.(heh thanks for letting my finally use that line). 

Since I am a registered non-aligned voter, calling me a partisan anything for voting for a Republican would be (forgive me) almost as dumb as refusing to vote for the most-conservative candidate who can win in a swing state.

I hope also for your own sake (since I assume that you are a decent, hard-working person) that people are more rational and fair-minded in how they appraise your own character and mental fitness than you have been in regard to Donald Trump's.

[LateForLunch]

You're not the only one who believes that morality and Constitutional principles are "far out there."

The entire Democrat party, and every leftist on the planet agrees with you.

Kudos on the company you keep.....

So if we would speak of being "far out there" what would we say of someone who ignores the fact that the single central, overriding, obsessive desire of the Democrat party and anti-Trumpsters is to defeat Donald Trump? That little detail has no significance in your appraisal of who is more-similar, I suppose.  Right. Sure. Whatever you say, sister.

[musiclady]

So if we would speak of being "far out there" what would we say of someone who ignores the fact that the single central, overriding, obsessive desire of the Democrat party and anti-Trumpsters is to defeat Donald Trump? That little detail has no significance in your appraisal of who is more-similar, I suppose.  Right. Sure. Whatever you say, sister.

None of that changes your stated argument that believing in moral values and Constitutional principles is "far out there."

I do appreciate your valiant attempt to deflect the statement you made to blame me for what you, yourself are doing, but it is an epic fail.

It is you who are cheering for and voting for a corrupt liberal, not we.

You will have to live with your choice to promote liberalism, and I will be able to live with my choice to remain consistent in the values the Republican party once also held.

I'm fine with consistent Biblical and political principles, and your snarky condescension will never make what is wrong, right.


(Incidentally...... the Democrats' job was done when they made sure that Trump won the nomination.  He was the media choice for the "Republican" nominee, and they knew their darling Hillary could beat him handily).

[Rivergirl]

There is a race in Bergen County, NJ where the dems went to Court to bar the Oath Keepers, an organization dedicated to defending the constitution, as being a terrorist organization and a threat to national security.  Thank g-d the Judge would have none of it.  Think about where we are at this moment when the dems go to Court to ban this group for daring to stand for defending the constitution.  Bergen County is one of the most corrupt counties in NJ.  Next to Hudson County, that is.

[INVAR]

But your accusation that my motivations are "twisted" is a cheap shot.   Shall I call you a partisan whore?     

LFL is just demonstrating how civil and magnanimous he is compared to the rest of us 'far out there', 'twisted fanatics'….'sister'.

[Jazzhead]

I hope also for your own sake (since I assume that you are a decent, hard-working person) that people are more rational and fair-minded in how they appraise your own character and mental fitness than you have been in regard to Donald Trump's.

My appraisal is based on my observation of how he's run his campaign:  He can't stay on message,  he's constantly changing advisors,  he's undisciplined, he foolishly responds to the bait laid by his opponents,  he indulges in petty feuds, he shorts his creditors.   

I've waited for months for Trump to stop acting like a petulant, distracted child and show himself worthy of the office he seeks.   It's now Election Day and time's up.   

[LateForLunch]

None of that changes your stated argument that believing in moral values and Constitutional principles is "far out there."

I have no idea what you are talking about. I never posted anything even remotely close to that on any thread anywhere. If you believe I have then you are trying to put words in my mouth because I am as strident a  Federalist Papers-quoting Originalist-Constututiunalist as ever lived. Do you have me confused with someone else? Maybe time for another cup of coffee, sister?

BTW, I happen to know that the Constitution says nothing whatsoever about there being any virtue in throwing your vote away on matters of "principle" - that being said, what's done is done, whatever makes you feel better about what you have done is tiki with me.

I don't doubt for a minute that you are a decent human being Musiclady. That you and I disagree about the Trump issue is regrettable but it is in the past now. It is what it is, as one of my bosses liked to say about unpleasant things which cannot be changed.

I can live with my decision to give God a chance to work and take a chance that Trump will not be as bad as Hill-O-Lies. I hope that you and all of the other Never Trumpsters can do the same and forgive yourselves for what you have done as I have largely already forgiven you (though I have some concerns about your collective ability to remain thinking-centered in your day-to-day lives, especially where you believe that  matters of "principle" are involved).

[musiclady]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I never posted anything even remotely close to that on any thread anywhere. If you believe I have then you are trying to put words in my mouth because I am as strident a  Federalist Papers-quoting Originalist-Constututiunalist as ever lived. Do you have me confused with someone else? Maybe time for another cup of coffee, sister?

BTW, I happen to know that the Constitution says nothing whatsoever about there being any virtue in throwing your vote away on matters of "principle" - that being said, what's done is done, whatever makes you feel better about what you have done is tiki with me.

I don't doubt for a minute that you are a decent human being Musiclady. That you and I disagree about the Trump issue is regrettable but it is in the past now. It is what it is, as one of my bosses liked to say about unpleasant things which cannot be changed.

I can live with my decision to give God a chance to work and take a chance that Trump will not be as bad as Hill-O-Lies. I hope that you and all of the other Never Trumpsters can do the same and forgive yourselves for what you have done as I have largely already forgiven you (though I have some concerns about your collective ability to remain thinking-centered in your day-to-day lives, especially where you believe that  matters of "principle" are involved).

Your continued condescension is duly noted.

I have been a thinking-centered Conservative my entire adult life, and that quality is what has made me refuse to vote for a hard core corrupt, amoral liberal like Trump.

The only "thrown away" vote is for a person who doesn't share a single value, either moral or political that either you, or your former party believe.

I am not throwing away my vote in the least.  If I voted for Trump, my vote would be tossed in a pile of swill, and my "thinking-centered" philosophy will not allow me to do that.

You feel free to go around crusading for liberal Trump, if you will.  And I will continue to be guilt-free for not falling for your propaganda.

[LateForLunch]

Your continued condescension is duly noted.

I have been a thinking-centered Conservative my entire adult life, and that quality is what has made me refuse to vote for a hard core corrupt, amoral liberal like Trump.

The only "thrown away" vote is for a person who doesn't share a single value, either moral or political that either you, or your former party believe.

I am not throwing away my vote in the least.  If I voted for Trump, my vote would be tossed in a pile of swill, and my "thinking-centered" philosophy will not allow me to do that.

You feel free to go around crusading for liberal Trump, if you will.  And I will continue to be guilt-free for not falling for your propaganda.

Madame, I say this with great respect - if you want to look for condescension you need look no further than your own posts. I have candidly stated my opinions and tried to be as respectful as I can in the face of what appears to me to be such - odd, strident, passionate, overly-emotional silliness. If being called "silly" and given rational reasons for it is too much for you to accept, I might suggest that you are a little overly-sensitive to criticism or disagreement.

[musiclady]

Madame, I say this with great respect - if you want to look for condescension you need look no further than your own posts. I have candidly stated my opinions and tried to be as respectful as I can in the face of what appears to me to be such - odd, strident, passionate, overly-emotional silliness. If being called "silly" and given rational reasons for it is too much for you to accept, I might suggest that you are a little overly-sensitive to criticism or disagreement.

Your continued condescension is duly noted.

Continue on your pro-liberal quest.   More power to you.

I remain who I have always been........ a thoughtful, not emotional, conservative with moral values that are not malleable.

If that bothers you (and it clearly does......... thus your dripping condescension), so be it.  I can't do anything for you.

[LateForLunch]

Your continued condescension is duly noted.

Continue on your pro-liberal quest.   More power to you.

I remain who I have always been........ a thoughtful, not emotional, conservative with moral values that are not malleable.

If that bothers you (and it clearly does......... thus your dripping condescension), so be it.  I can't do anything for you.

My goodness. If you call refusal to agree with you or (forgive me) kiss your behind "condescension" then I guess I'll have to live with that.

"Let it just die" - Heavy Metal Magazine

[INVAR]

I am as strident a  Federalist Papers-quoting Originalist-Constututiunalist as ever lived.

Says the one pimping a lifelong NYC liberal Democrat who funded and praised the Clintons (and other overt Communists 3 years ago) before running as a Republican, whereby he trashed the GOP and it's Conservatives more vociferously than anything he flung at The Mao Pantsuit.

Forgive us (or not) that we do not believe your claim to be a strident Federalist Paper-quoting Originalist Constitutionalist.

Your fruits do not match.