Trump waving the LGBT rainbow flag

[roamer_1]

Its amazing to me that someone claiming to be conservative would be arguing for immorality and lawlessness.   But hey if it feels good do it.

There has long been a contingency of anti-Christian thought in factional Conservatism - I suppose one can be a defcon, ficon, and even somewhat civil-libertarian, at least on the surface of things, while eschewing the principles of the socons.

'On the surface', i say, because a modicum of deeper thought necessarily leads one to the conclusion that every dilemma currently breaching our national tranquility is a derivative of moral turpitude. It is unassailable.

The basic tenets of civilization are what has made us strong.  Break those down and the ties that bind us go away.   We're starting to see the results of that now.

TRUE.

@driftdiver

[Jazzhead]

Its amazing to me that someone claiming to be conservative would be arguing for immorality and lawlessness.   But hey if it feels good do it.

The basic tenets of civilization are what has made us strong.  Break those down and the ties that bind us go away.   We're starting to see the results of that now.

No one's arguing for lawlessness.   But the government shouldn't pass laws proscribing consensual behavior in the bedroom.   That's part of one's inherent liberty and privacy,  natural rights that deserve protection by the Constitiution. 

The churches certainly have the right to say what they view as moral or immoral.  I think they provide a valuable "civilizing" influence by doing so.   But I disagree with the notion that a monogamous gay couple is intrinsically "immoral" because of the gender their biology tells them that they love.   Promiscuity and lack of personal responsibility and accountability are what's causing fractures in the "basic tenets of civilization".  I've known gay couples who've been faithful to each other for years and sober, responsible members of the community.   To me, they're far more "moral" than, say, a Bible thumping Christian who runs around on his wife. 

[DB]

@roamer_1 @sneakypete

Its amazing to me that someone claiming to be conservative would be arguing for immorality and lawlessness.   But hey if it feels good do it.

The basic tenets of civilization are what has made us strong.  Break those down and the ties that bind us go away.   We're starting to see the results of that now.

Actually many of us are "conservatives" in the classical liberal sense. Liberal as in liberty based on the constitutional rights of individuals. More government is less liberty. It is for family, friends and church to intervene with ones moral problems, not the one size fits all government's.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Yes,  we are down right Untermenschen. 



"God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

Hey next time you thank the Lord you are so much better than us #Never Trumps put in a good word for me would ya.

[INVAR]

"in the privacy of their own home".  That line has been used against traditional values for a long time and its been very successful in furthering the radical leftist & gay agenda.

The govt defines what a 'bedroom' is.  They define how many doors, windows, closets and in some areas how big it must be in order to classify as a bedroom.   They force manufacturers to put little tags on our pillows and mattresses and make people afraid to take them off.   They dictate what materials can & cannot be used in the mattress, dressers, carpet, drapes, paint, lights, light bulbs and every other aspect of the private "bedroom".  The govt can choose to monitor your phone calls, your emails, your internet traffic from your "bedroom".  They tell you how you have to store the firearm you have in your bedroom for protection.

So the govt is already up to its eyeballs in our bedrooms.   But we're not supposed to care if its two people of the same gender having sex.   How about if they are raping someone, perhaps a child?   Or beating someone or maybe even killing someone.   Should we not care what is being done in the privacy of their own home then?

Of course we should care; what we do impacts other people.  It effects our society, our neighborhood, our state and our children.

A people and nation who refuse to be self governed by God and His morality, will be ruled by the tyrants of men and their morality.

Here we are.

Enjoy.

[roamer_1]

No one's arguing for lawlessness.   But the government shouldn't pass laws proscribing consensual behavior in the bedroom.   That's part of one's inherent liberty and privacy,  natural rights that deserve protection by the Constitiution. 

No, state and county/parish have long held authority, as it should be - The grand experiment left anything not expressly given to the federal government to the states. If you don't like the morality of the Bible belt, go live in Californica... And the states have traditionally tried to hand such things down to the county - If you don't like rural values, go live in the nearest big city...

Moral and legal guidelines have never been meant to be universal. But that is what's happening now. Immorality, legislated at the federal bench, is shoving big-city values on all of us, whether we like it or not. 

[skeeter]

@roamer_1 @sneakypete

Its amazing to me that someone claiming to be conservative would be arguing for immorality and lawlessness.   But hey if it feels good do it.

The basic tenets of civilization are what has made us strong.  Break those down and the ties that bind us go away.   We're starting to see the results of that now.

I fully acknowledge that from the standpoint of morality I am no more virtuous than a homosexual, perhaps with the difference being I acknowledge my immorality rather than attempt to normalize it.

As far as the government being involved is concerned, when they sanction a heterosexual marriage they are clearly acting in society's interests, for obvious reasons. When they sanction homosexual marriage they are acting in the interests of the homosexual couple and their exclusive community only - in doing so they give the imprimatur of all of us to a particular lifestyle that has historically been deemed aberrant.

And that is is what is corrosive about it - on this issue the government has become the arbiter of morality. I resent government speaking for me when I so vehemently disagree.

[roamer_1]

Actually many of us are "conservatives" in the classical liberal sense. Liberal as in liberty based on the constitutional rights of individuals. More government is less liberty. It is for family, friends and church to intervene with ones moral problems, not the one size fits all government's.

Which is why state and local governance has always defined such things. What's 'moral' in New York City is vastly different from rural Mississippi.

[INVAR]

No, state and county/parish have long held authority, as it should be - The grand experiment left anything not expressly given to the federal government to the states. If you don't like the morality of the Bible belt, go live in Californica... And the states have traditionally tried to hand such things down to the county - If you don't like rural values, go live in the nearest big city...

Moral and legal guidelines have never been meant to be universal. But that is what's happening now. Immorality, legislated at the federal bench, is shoving big-city values on all of us, whether we like it or not.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters...

...I believe farther that this [Constitution] is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other." - Benjamin Franklin

[Idaho_Cowboy]

I remember one time he told us to break the lesser moral issue to protect the greater.



9And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.



It seems the vile Pharisees were thinking the tail should instead wag the dog.

But that has no bearing on the issue at hand. Trump decided to double down on his contempt of decent morality. He's not only consistently been pro abortion and pro planned parenthood, he has now decided to abandon the definition of marriage God gave us from the beginning. Jesus never compromised on moral issues like murder or marriage.

Let's look at a much more pertinent example at the time. Which of the two groups of elite, the leaders; the political parties of their day, did Jesus support? The Pharisees or the Sadducees?

[Idaho_Cowboy]

I didn't make it up.  I read it on the internet.   :dx1:

Just like you read on the internet that Trump changed his views on abortion.

Trouble is that if he had, he wouldn't have been touting PP in a debate THIS YEAR.... a murderous, purely EVIL organization.

The man is Pro-ABORTION.

If you want to vote for him in spite of that fact, go for it.

I can't.

It was just a few months, during the current campaign. Trump was telling planned parenthood does wonderful things. I will have no truck with anyone who promotes the premier group for killing dismembering and selling babies and their parts. That's their bread and butter, they don't do mammograms etc; they kill babies plain and simple. Anyone who said what Trump said is either being dishonest and is pro abortion, or is too stupid to see their hand in front of their face. 

[Idaho_Cowboy]

So what? I thought Christisnity was about redemption?
Trust me I have done plenty in my life I fell very guilty about today and wish I never did. Glad God will judge me and not you.
@sinkspur

Should we apply that attitude to Hillary?

[Idaho_Cowboy]

She already tried this stunt in California,  oddly enough in may of this election year.   20 years she's had to make this claim,  but she waits until he's a candidate for President?   Has a left wing kook attorney pushing this?   


Don't be gullible.

Just like all those bimbos that have attacked the Clintons. 

[roamer_1]

Let's look at a much more pertinent example at the time. Which of the two groups of elite, the leaders; the political parties of their day, did Jesus support? The Pharisees or the Sadducees?

@Idaho_Cowboy

More to the point, @DiogenesLamp is incorrect in his interpretation. It has never been unlawful to heal on the Sabbath. It has never been unlawful to get your sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath. That is what Yeshua is pointing out.

What is being weighed is the expressed illegality of the Pharisees - preferring their power and opinion over that of the commandments of YHWH.

to wit: If Yeshua did indeed break Torah, then he cannot be the Messiah.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@sneakypete @roamer_1

"in the privacy of their own home".  That line has been used against traditional values for a long time and its been very successful in furthering the radical leftist & gay agenda.

The govt defines what a 'bedroom' is.  They define how many doors, windows, closets and in some areas how big it must be in order to classify as a bedroom.   They force manufacturers to put little tags on our pillows and mattresses and make people afraid to take them off.   They dictate what materials can & cannot be used in the mattress, dressers, carpet, drapes, paint, lights, light bulbs and every other aspect of the private "bedroom".  The govt can choose to monitor your phone calls, your emails, your internet traffic from your "bedroom".  They tell you how you have to store the firearm you have in your bedroom for protection.

So the govt is already up to its eyeballs in our bedrooms.   But we're not supposed to care if its two people of the same gender having sex.   How about if they are raping someone, perhaps a child?   Or beating someone or maybe even killing someone.   Should we not care what is being done in the privacy of their own home then?

Of course we should care; what we do impacts other people.  It effects our society, our neighborhood, our state and our children.

I am tempted to print that out and frame it. Amen!

[roamer_1]

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters...

...I believe farther that this [Constitution] is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other." - Benjamin Franklin

I agree wholeheartedly with Ben Franklin - But that does nothing to discount my statement. I would rather have 50 firewalls (really c.3100 county firewalls) against moral turpitude than having a federal ONE.

[DiogenesLamp]

Biblically false and wrong.  You twist the scriptures and apply it to justify sin. 

Voting for Donald Trump is a bigger Sin than voting for Hillary?   Are you sure you want to go with this?   

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@Idaho_Cowboy

More to the point, @DiogenesLamp is incorrect in his interpretation. It has never been unlawful to heal on the Sabbath. It has never been unlawful to get your sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath. That is what Yeshua is pointing out.

What is being weighed is the expressed illegality of the Pharisees - preferring their power and opinion over that of the commandments of YHWH.

to wit: If Yeshua did indeed break Torah, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Yep Jesus even in his healing on the Sabbath was fulfilling the law not breaking it. The Pharisees had added to the law which can be just as much of a problem as subtracting from it.

[DiogenesLamp]

I was raised to believe that no sin was greater than another in the eyes of God.

Obviously murder is worse than lying from a legal and mortal standpoint but to God they are the same and both can be forgiven by God the same way.

That you admit that murder is worse than lying establishes that not all sins are equal in your mind.   You basically concede my point that it is foolish to  violate a greater moral concern to avoid violating a lesser moral concern.   


That is what Jesus conveyed when he healed on the Sabbath.   

[roamer_1]

Voting for Donald Trump is a bigger Sin than voting for Hillary?   Are you sure you want to go with this?

@DiogenesLamp  @INVAR

False premise.
It is whether or not to endorse Trump. Clinton doesn't even enter into it.

[DiogenesLamp]

He isn't innocent until the court declares him innocent.

But that doesn't stop you from spreading the meme that he is guilty,  and of course you are obviously doing it for political,  not moral reasons.   


You hate Trump,  and so you spread vile gossip against him. 

[roamer_1]

Yep Jesus even in his healing on the Sabbath was fulfilling the law not breaking it. The Pharisees had added to the law which can be just as much of a problem as subtracting from it.

Exactly right.

[DiogenesLamp]

Yup. It's called discernment.  I choose not to lend a hand towards giving him an opportunity to prove my discernment.

So in other words,  you won't provide any evidence of your claims,  but we should still take your assertions seriously?   


I cannot make serious decisions on the basis of your say so.   No rational person would do such a thing.   


Nuts abound on the internet,  and when someone urges you to do something without presenting evidence,  the odds are that you are dealing with one. 

[DiogenesLamp]

Titus 3:10
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

New Living Transltion

If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them.

-----------


Romans 16:17
Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them.

Please!   Please follow that advice!   Please give us no more of  your input!   We are beyond hope!   


Your wisdom is lost on we swine.   Cast not your pearls before us! 

[DiogenesLamp]

@mirraflake

I think an  is appropriate here.

How do you feel about pedophiles or necrophiles?