Author Topic: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?  (Read 26457 times)

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Online bigheadfred

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2016, 07:29:36 pm »
The answer is that some genius must come along and figure out a way to make becoming an enlightened, vigilant, knowledgeable centurion at the gate of Liberty more convenient and fun than being a lazy, easily- distracted, apathetic, bovine conformist to the whims and dictates of an all-powerful, tyrannical super-State.

Largely and increasingly, my impression of the majority of today's young people in regard to understanding how we are governed,  is that they are much like passengers on the Titanic who don't want to hear about ice bergs, sinking or "any of that sort of boring old-people crap".

Institute a draft. Teach citizenship in schools. Convene an Article V convention. Cut them off.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 07:29:59 pm »
@Doug Loss

We can't. I have been trying for several years on several political boards to just quit allowing the left to identify themselves as "Liberals" to to GET CONSERVATIVES TO QUIT CALLING THE FASCIST LEFT AND FASCIST RIGHT "LIBERALS" also because there is no creature on earth LESS "liberal" than a leftist. In FACT,in America,it is the CONSERVATIVES that are trying to preserve our liberal form of government.

So far as I know, I have convinced NO ONE to do this. They are still calling the left "liberals" and sneering like it is an insult.  If we can't even get our "own" people to recognize something this basic,what luck are you going to have convincing the brain dead sheeple?

Unless you try, how would you know?  I'm saying, let's get back to our original principles.  Let's drop all the political terminology, the dogma we've acquired over the years, and try to engage the people looking for something to believe in, some way out of the malaise the left has imposed on the country.  Let's try to build a positive spirit of individualism, of ability, of responsibility for our rights and those of others.  Let's give those people something to believe in, not just railing at those who try to hold them back.

Here's a theme song for us:


Mary Ellen Carter
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Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2016, 07:32:50 pm »
@INVAR @Oceander @LateForLunch

So how do we implement the needed outreach to those malcontent people of all types in the country who would perhaps reject anything labeled "conservative" out of hand?  Perhaps we need to write up a statement of principles and beliefs that we can use as a starting point for discussion and education.  What do you all think?

A people that have abandoned God and a nation that has become hostile to His Laws, is a people and nation that have no ability to comprehend or understand the moral precepts that undergird the foundations of liberty.

In short - without a religious and moral people who are beholden to God - you have no ability to get them to understand the principles of liberty and Republicanism.

We are become a wicked and debased people, I cannot even get Christian churches to discuss repentance and standing up for morality anymore.  Their leaderships are more concerned about weekly offerings declining if they start 'offending people'.  We truly have become an Isaiah 30:10 nation.

Until the nation repents - such efforts you suggest are futile.

But if you want to try in your inner circle of folks - start getting people back to God and scripture.  Because everything else that we were sprang up from that seed and root.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online bigheadfred

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 07:39:38 pm »
Exactly why trump has such a popularity. He is feeding off mom and pop attitudes and beliefs that the America their parents and grandparents built is gone. Trump has promised "To Make America Great Again". Which is, of course, exactly what they want to hear. But he really doesn't have Christ in his life so he doesn't have the spiritual backing to pull it off. Which, even if elected, will be why he fails.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 07:41:47 pm »
It dies off?


I'm 40 and barely remember Reagan.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2016, 07:54:57 pm »
It dies off?


I'm 40 and barely remember Reagan.

Yes. It dies off. There is the "new" Conservatism. Tolerant and accepting. In touch with their inner Gaia. As soon as my intolerant butt is gone they have it all. But until then I will be unbending against islam, illegal immigration, the homosexual agenda, abortion, globalism, climate change, etc.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2016, 08:08:09 pm »
Yes. It dies off. There is the "new" Conservatism. Tolerant and accepting. In touch with their inner Gaia. As soon as my intolerant butt is gone they have it all. But until then I will be unbending against islam, illegal immigration, the homosexual agenda, abortion, globalism, climate change, etc.


Just letting you know... prattling on about Reagan is not a way forward for the movement. Most people under 40 only know of Reagan from their biased sources: colleges and the media.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 08:09:11 pm »
A people that have abandoned God and a nation that has become hostile to His Laws,

@INVAR

You must be confused. This is NOT Iraq,Iran,or Saudi Arabia. It's not even Rome. It's the United States of America,and OUR laws are the law of man.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2016, 08:11:20 pm »
...But he really doesn't have Christ in his life so he doesn't have the spiritual backing to pull it off. Which, even if elected, will be why he fails.

@bigheadfred
I guess any American that isn't a Bible Thumper and accepts "The word of GAWD!" as his or her personal slavery ticket to salvation isn't a "real American",huh?

And some people still wonder why conservatism doesn't dominate!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 08:12:04 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2016, 08:12:39 pm »
 :pop41:
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2016, 08:16:14 pm »
@bigheadfred
I guess any American that isn't a Bible Thumper and accepts "The word of GAWD!" as his or her personal slavery ticket to salvation isn't a "real American",huh?

And some people still wonder why conservatism doesn't dominate!


 :amen:


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


People think Trump is looney but they really need to take a look in the mirror when they extra "Jesusy". That crap won't fly with anyone under the age of 50. I've heard loonies say God decides elections, to Jesus riding dinosaurs, etc.




Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2016, 08:20:18 pm »
A people that have abandoned God and a nation that has become hostile to His Laws, is a people and nation that have no ability to comprehend or understand the moral precepts that undergird the foundations of liberty.

In short - without a religious and moral people who are beholden to God - you have no ability to get them to understand the principles of liberty and Republicanism.

We are become a wicked and debased people, I cannot even get Christian churches to discuss repentance and standing up for morality anymore.  Their leaderships are more concerned about weekly offerings declining if they start 'offending people'.  We truly have become an Isaiah 30:10 nation.

Until the nation repents - such efforts you suggest are futile.

But if you want to try in your inner circle of folks - start getting people back to God and scripture.  Because everything else that we were sprang up from that seed and root.

You need to visit an Orthodox church sometime.  My preference is for ROCOR (the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia), as it seems the most "fundamental" of the various hierarchies, but pretty much any Orthodox church will have what you're not finding elsewhere.
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2016, 08:23:56 pm »
I'll have a go this weekend at writing up something like a statement of principles and beliefs that might be useful as a starting point to give people something to believe in.  I'll post it here and you can tear it to shreds, OK?  :laugh:
My political philosophy:

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2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2016, 09:11:11 pm »
@INVAR

You must be confused. This is NOT Iraq,Iran,or Saudi Arabia. It's not even Rome. It's the United States of America,and OUR laws are the law of man.

Then stop complaining about the tyranny of men and the foibles of bad character in our rulers.  Without the moral foundations liberty that was enshrined for us, men will decide how liberty is to be defined for you, if you are permitted to exercise it at all.

We have arrived at this juncture of the tyranny of men precisely because in the name of eschewing everything from that book and that religion that a majority now despise or are indifferent to - we are becoming Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.  Namely a caste system of top down tyrannical leadership.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2016, 10:15:08 pm »
@Doug Loss

We can't. I have been trying for several years on several political boards to just quit allowing the left to identify themselves as "Liberals" to to GET CONSERVATIVES TO QUIT CALLING THE FASCIST LEFT AND FASCIST RIGHT "LIBERALS" also because there is no creature on earth LESS "liberal" than a leftist. In FACT,in America,it is the CONSERVATIVES that are trying to preserve our liberal form of government.

So far as I know, I have convinced NO ONE to do this. They are still calling the left "liberals" and sneering like it is an insult.  If we can't even get our "own" people to recognize something this basic,what luck are you going to have convincing the brain dead sheeple?
To me the spectrum is simply between totalitarian and free.

More government control/sponsorship/supervision/reccomendations/oversight/meddling is more totalitarian.

If you are free, you, your things, and your soul are beholden to no one except as you choose. You respect the Rights of others as you would have them respect yours. For me, my prime obligation is to my Creator and those others I call family. Or more simply put, God, Family, County, State, Country, in that order, as I see fit.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2016, 10:36:51 pm »
Then stop complaining about the tyranny of men and the foibles of bad character in our rulers.  Without the moral foundations liberty that was enshrined for us, men will decide how liberty is to be defined for you, if you are permitted to exercise it at all.

We have arrived at this juncture of the tyranny of men precisely because in the name of eschewing everything from that book and that religion that a majority now despise or are indifferent to - we are becoming Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.  Namely a caste system of top down tyrannical leadership.

@INVAR

Ok,now I know you are confused. Not to mention delusional. I AM complaining about the tyranny of men when I complain about organized religion,from the guy with the big hat in Rome,to the Fascist that gives YOU your marching orders every Sunday,and tells you that he and you are empowered to force the rest of us to live according to your superstitious beliefs because GAWD DEMANDS IT!

Now,if YOU want to live according to the tenants of your religious beliefs,have at it! The problem is that if you had the power you wouldn't stop there. You would insist that everyone else live according to those beliefs also,and would use the force of law to punish those who don't. For all practical purposes,the only difference between fundie Christians and Fundie Muslims is the clothing. You don't really hate each other for any other reason than jealousy. You both want to dominate the world and force people to live according to your beliefs.

Which is why people have been playing Muslims and Christians for almost a thousand years now. You both insist on dominating and don't want any competition or any protest.

THAT is why we have Freedom of Religion in the US. Freedom of Religion is also freedom FROM religion if we so choose,and it is un-Constitutional in America to establish or recognize an official church.
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2016, 10:46:25 pm »
@INVAR

Ok,now I know you are confused. Not to mention delusional. I AM complaining about the tyranny of men when I complain about organized religion,from the guy with the big hat in Rome,to the Fascist that gives YOU your marching orders every Sunday,and tells you that he and you are empowered to force the rest of us to live according to your superstitious beliefs because GAWD DEMANDS IT!

Now,if YOU want to live according to the tenants of your religious beliefs,have at it! The problem is that if you had the power you wouldn't stop there. You would insist that everyone else live according to those beliefs also,and would use the force of law to punish those who don't. For all practical purposes,the only difference between fundie Christians and Fundie Muslims is the clothing. You don't really hate each other for any other reason than jealousy. You both want to dominate the world and force people to live according to your beliefs.

Which is why people have been playing Muslims and Christians for almost a thousand years now. You both insist on dominating and don't want any competition or any protest.

THAT is why we have Freedom of Religion in the US. Freedom of Religion is also freedom FROM religion if we so choose,and it is un-Constitutional in America to establish or recognize an official church.

My friend, you are so far off the mark you aren't even wrong, you're just incomprehensible.  You clearly know nothing about the actual tenets of Christianity.  Your hatred of all religion is quite clear.  It's not rational.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2016, 11:00:04 pm »
Your hatred of all religion is quite clear.  It's not rational.

@Doug Loss


ROFLMAO! That is RICH! You believe in the supernatural and magic,holy ghosts,life after death,etc,etc,etc,and you tell me that *I* am the one not rational????
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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2016, 11:03:24 pm »
@INVAR @Oceander @LateForLunch

So how do we implement the needed outreach to those malcontent people of all types in the country who would perhaps reject anything labeled "conservative" out of hand?  Perhaps we need to write up a statement of principles and beliefs that we can use as a starting point for discussion and education.  What do you all think?

Good ideas.  Perhaps start with a list of the things you hold valuable and then try to explain in positive terms how those values would in fact contribute to someone else's life, and in particular, why certain things seem counterintuitive.  A simple example is Adam Smith's invisible hand.  It seems counterintuitive that if everyone is allowed to pursue their own selfish aims, society will be the better for it, but that is generally what happens.  So the next task is to try and explain why that is.  Things of that nature.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2016, 11:06:34 pm »
@INVAR

 For all practical purposes,the only difference between fundie Christians and Fundie Muslims is the clothing.

And that one group will pray for you while the other will chop off your head.  Maybe I'm being a little nit picky here, but I do feel like it's a difference that's at least worth mentioning.
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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2016, 11:11:01 pm »
@Doug Loss


ROFLMAO! That is RICH! You believe in the supernatural and magic,holy ghosts,life after death,etc,etc,etc,and you tell me that *I* am the one not rational????

Hating something that you believe (not "know," believe) is irrational does not make you any the less irrational.  Hatred is irrational.

Furthermore, it is not logically possible to rule out the existence of God in the natural universe.  There was a rather interesting paper that came out a few years back that essentially demonstrated that Godel's incompleteness theorem applied to the natural universe.  One of the consequences of that is that there are truths about the natural universe that cannot be expressed through natural terms.  I.e., there are truths about the Universe that cannot be stated, and thus cannot be proven (or disproven) by beings who live in, and are a part of, the natural universe.  There's a little blog-type summary of the position here (it also contains a link to a more extensive paper on the topic):  http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~cannata/cs313e/Class%20Notes/04%20Marshall%20Godel's%20Incompleteness%20Theorem.pdf

The bottom line is this:  the fact that God's existence cannot be proven by positivist methods does not mean that God does not exist.  But then again, as my rather simplistic understanding of Christianity goes, that is why there is the Grace of God; that true belief comes through the acceptance of God's grace, and not through rational deduction alone.

It is irrational to think otherwise.

One more little point:  atheists like to think themselves freed of the chains of ignorance and superstition, but if you examine their claims with any degree of skepticism and in any reasonable detail, they end up resolving themselves into a set of beliefs, not knowledge, but beliefs.  Since the bedrock of religion is belief, it necessarily follows that atheism is, at bottom, simply another form of religious belief.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 11:12:57 pm by Oceander »

Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2016, 11:18:46 pm »
And that one group will pray for you while the other will chop off your head.  Maybe I'm being a little nit picky here, but I do feel like it's a difference that's at least worth mentioning.

@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

No,the first group will pray for your soul as they chop off your head,while the second group just chops off heads.

A distinction without a real difference.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2016, 11:24:41 pm »
Hating something that you believe (not "know," believe) is irrational does not make you any the less irrational.  Hatred is irrational.

Furthermore, it is not logically possible to rule out the existence of God in the natural universe. <<


@Oceander


It is logical to demand proof,and say the absence of proof strongly indicates it is false.



 
The bottom line is this:  the fact that God's existence cannot be proven by positivist methods does not mean that God does not exist.<<

It damn sure doesn't prove that God does exist,either.

>>It is irrational to think otherwise.<<

Say WHAT? HOW is it irrational to claim that a complete and total lack of proof is reasonable cause to suspect something is not true?

One more little point:  atheists like to think themselves freed of the chains of ignorance and superstition, but if you examine their claims with any degree of skepticism and in any reasonable detail, they end up resolving themselves into a set of beliefs, not knowledge, but beliefs. <<

Which is why I never tell anyone I am an atheist. They do as much preaching as the fundie Christians and Muslims.
 
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2016, 11:30:56 pm »
@Doug Loss


ROFLMAO! That is RICH! You believe in the supernatural and magic,holy ghosts,life after death,etc,etc,etc,and you tell me that *I* am the one not rational????
Do you consider the founding father's irrational, they believed a creator was self evident? Most were devout Christians believing in the Bible and the resurrection.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2016, 11:58:57 pm »
@bigheadfred
I guess any American that isn't a Bible Thumper and accepts "The word of GAWD!" as his or her personal slavery ticket to salvation isn't a "real American",huh?

And some people still wonder why conservatism doesn't dominate!
@sneakypete  First Amendment:
Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I'll go with that, and I am a Christian. Despite your pejorative characterization of religion, in some cases perhaps well deserved, a vast number of "Real Americans" existed before the Vikings found this place. Some of them became Christians, some didn't.

Among those honorable people in either camp is a shared set of values. Your word is your bond. You stand up for what you believe is right. You defend your friends, relentlessly pursue your enemies, but can come to terms in a mutually honorable peace--or, in some cases, not. Fundamental rules exist, and breaking those promotes outrage whatever one's religious beliefs.
 
You don't steal from others. (It pisses them off, just as you would be pissed off if they stole something of yours).
You don't needlessly kill them. (That pisses off their relatives).
You don't screw their wives (Messing with family units is often taboo, even though there may be exceptions).
You feed the poor, sick, and weak who can't feed themselves. (Note, I didn't say won't feed themselves.)
Be kind to animals and lesser creatures, unless they are a threat to you and yours, or you want them for food, then kill them quickly and mercifully.
Teach children the ways of adulthood as they are old and mature enough to learn without unnecessarily rushing it. 
Protect women and children from harm.

Most cultures would agree on most, if not all of that, at some level (individual/family/extended family/band/tribe/nation) regardless of religious belief, because human nature is pretty much hard wired in. The same spectrum of wants, needs, aggravations, ambitions, and desires are present in humanity as were thousands of years ago, only the scope of those and the trimmings have changed.

That takes us back to the idea of fundamental Rights.
The right to believe--or not.
The right to assemble in groups
The right to have an opinion and voice it
The right to challenge what you think is wrong
The right to defend yourself and yours
The right to have your stuff, without ANY one else messing with it.
The right to face those who accuse you of wrong, to make them prove what they contend or be believed innocent of that wrong.
To not be punished for any wrongs unless your people have decided you did, and only after consideration of all evidence for and against you. You have a right to defend yourself and have any and all who can aid in that defense present their information on your behalf. No punishment should be disproportional to the nature of whatever you did, if such applies, nor should it be unusually cruel.

For a Christian of Jew, those rules are laid out in the Bible, for others, in other scriptures or cultural tradition, but whether or not to follow some moral 'code' remains an individual choice.

The concept of Honor transcends culture, and although it is often co-opted or encumbered with other stuff, Men of Honor understand, instinctively, and follow that internal code. By any reasonable standard they are moral men. Those who are not, need rules spelled out in the most minute detail, and will still try to weasel out of them.
In terms of religion, we may not believe the same thing, yet I would trust you to conduct yourself honorably despite that.

That is what would make you a "Conservative" in my eyes, and beyond doubt a "Real American".
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 01:36:15 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis