Author Topic: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump  (Read 127586 times)

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1550 on: October 11, 2016, 04:36:08 pm »
@DiogenesLamp

I disagree.  You assume that the nomination process is a reflection of the population.  I don't believe that to be the case.

Based on what actual evidence?  Where is the proof that this huge voting bloc of conservatives that never votes actually exists and is willing to vote for the "right" candidate? 

It's difficult to prove a negative, but my evidence is the fact that they don't cast votes for conservative candidates.  And I know all the excuses about voters being "tricked" and "misled" by nasty media campaigns such as the one that supposedly sank Ted Cruz.  But aren't we talking about a silent majority of true blue conservative voters?  Aren't those the exact people who should be able to see through that stuff in a heartbeat, and know that it was just garbage?

I'd suggest that if they really are so easily led off the trail and willing to let Trump have the nomination, then they really weren't true blue conservatives to begin with. 

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1551 on: October 11, 2016, 04:43:32 pm »
even after Trump was heard on tape admitting to sexual battery.

I don't know that he's done that.  In the tape, he very specifically says, "And when you're a star they let you do it." 

Voluntary contact is not battery.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1552 on: October 11, 2016, 05:21:16 pm »
@DiogenesLamp

Based on what actual evidence?  Where is the proof that this huge voting bloc of conservatives that never votes actually exists and is willing to vote for the "right" candidate? 

It's difficult to prove a negative, but my evidence is the fact that they don't cast votes for conservative candidates.  And I know all the excuses about voters being "tricked" and "misled" by nasty media campaigns such as the one that supposedly sank Ted Cruz.  But aren't we talking about a silent majority of true blue conservative voters?  Aren't those the exact people who should be able to see through that stuff in a heartbeat, and know that it was just garbage?

I'd suggest that if they really are so easily led off the trail and willing to let Trump have the nomination, then they really weren't true blue conservatives to begin with.

Not sure what numbers you are using.  First, just talking about this last nomination cycle, more people voted for more conservative candidates than Trump, second, in several states people didn't vote and the party decided who to throw their support behind, and third, many of the votes were cross-over votes by democrats and uncommitted.  The party decided the candidate - it was not a representative vote process.  What am I missing?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 05:21:56 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1553 on: October 11, 2016, 06:15:50 pm »
Not sure what numbers you are using.

I'm looking at the actual numbers for every primary since 1968.  The only true conservative to win the nomination in that time was Reagan.  One guy. 

Quote
First, just talking about this last nomination cycle....

What you're missing is any objective evidence of there being a great mass of true believing conservative voters apart from those who vote in the primaries.

In talking about just this last nomination cycle cycle, you're ignoring all the prior history of conservatives not winning the primary.  If we truly are a majority of the GOP electorate, there's no way that should happen with that level of consistency. If "true conservatives" are really a majority within the GOP, then they should be able to nominate more than one "true conservative" over the last 50 years.

Quote
....more people voted for more conservative candidates than Trump, second, in several states people didn't vote and the party decided who to throw their support behind, and third, many of the votes were cross-over votes by democrats and uncommitted.  The party decided the candidate - it was not a representative vote process.  What am I missing?

The first issue here is your definition of "conservative".  I'd wager that there are a great many people who call themselves "conservative" that wouldn't agree with your definition.  Was Kasich a conservative?  Bush? Christie?  Obviously not Trump....  Right there is more than 50% of the votes cast. 

And that's really where we fall apart -- we love to talk about the high percentage of self-identified conservatives, but then castigate many of those very same people for not being sufficiently conservative.  And many Trump supporters are people who self-identify as conservative.  It's the label that is misleading because it is used so subjectively.

The candidate generally touted here as the most conservative candidate -- almost the ideal conservative in terms of policy -- was Ted Cruz.  And he got a grand total of 7.8 million votes.  That has nothing to do with crossovers from the Democratic Party -- it was the raw number of votes he received. 

So why didn't he get more?   Again, voters who are so easily confused/distracted from the issues by stupid stories about his dad or affairs aren't really "true conservative" voters.  They're fringe voters, not core, committed conservatives.  You can come up with excuses for Cruz (and for every other conservative who didn't win between 1968 and 2016), but all of those excuses are dependent on such voters actually existing in the first place, and that has not been proven.  It's simply asserted:

 "I believe there are many millions more true conservative voters out there, and the reason I personally believe they didn't vote is [insert excuse]."  But the evidence of such voters actually existing in the first place is never offered, and indeed, the repeated failure of them to show up in the primaries over the course of the last half-century suggested that they don't exist at all.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 06:20:21 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1554 on: October 11, 2016, 06:17:58 pm »
I'm looking at the actual numbers for every primary since 1968.  The only true conservative to win the nomination in that time was Reagan.  One guy. 

First, in talking about just this last nomination cycle cycle, you're ignoring all the prior history of conservatives not winning the primary.  If we truly are a majority of the GOP electorate, there's no way that should happen with that level of consistency. If "true conservatives" are really a majority within the GOP, then they should be able to nominate more than one "true conservative" over the last 50 years.

[....]more people voted for more conservative candidates than Trump, second, in several states people didn't vote and the party decided who to throw their support behind, and third, many of the votes were cross-over votes by democrats and uncommitted.  The party decided the candidate - it was not a representative vote process.  What am I missing?

The first issue here is your definition of "conservative".  I'd wager that there are a great many people who call themselves "conservative" that wouldn't agree with your definition.  Was Kasich a conservative?  Bush? Christie?  Obviously not Trump....

And that's really where we fall apart -- we love to talk about the high percentage of self-identified conservatives, but then castigate many of those very same people for not being sufficiently conservative.  And many Trump supporters are people who self-identify as conservative.  It's the label that is misleading because it is used so subjectively.

The candidate generally touted here as the most conservative candidate -- almost the ideal conservative in terms of policy -- was Ted Cruz.  And he got a grand total of 7.8 million votes.  That has nothing to do with crossovers from the Democratic Party -- it was the raw number of votes he received. 

So why didn't he get more?   Again, voters who are so easily confused/distracted from the issues by stupid stories about his dad or affairs aren't really "true conservative" voters.  They're fringe voters, not core, committed conservatives.  You can come up with excuses for Cruz (and for every other conservative who didn't win between 1968 and 2016), but all of those excuses are dependent on such voters actually existing in the first place, and that has not been proven.  It's simply asserted:

 "I believe there are many millions more true conservative voters out there, and the reason I personally believe they didn't vote is [insert excuse]."  But the evidence of such voters actually existing in the first place is never offered, and indeed, the repeated failure of them to show up in the primaries over the course of the last half-century suggested that they don't exist at all.

Bill, did you read what I wrote?  It's almost like you wrote your answer before you read my comment.

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1555 on: October 11, 2016, 06:33:53 pm »
@DiogenesLamp

Based on what actual evidence?  Where is the proof that this huge voting bloc of conservatives that never votes actually exists and is willing to vote for the "right" candidate? 

It's difficult to prove a negative, but my evidence is the fact that they don't cast votes for conservative candidates.  And I know all the excuses about voters being "tricked" and "misled" by nasty media campaigns such as the one that supposedly sank Ted Cruz.  But aren't we talking about a silent majority of true blue conservative voters?  Aren't those the exact people who should be able to see through that stuff in a heartbeat, and know that it was just garbage?

I'd suggest that if they really are so easily led off the trail and willing to let Trump have the nomination, then they really weren't true blue conservatives to begin with.


You're just wasting your breathe. True blue believers will never ever accept the truth. They will deflect, distort, lie etc. etc.


It's far easier to believe that there is a secret overwhelming silent majority of Christian conservatives willing to liberate this country from the evils of liberalism.


The NeverTrumpers are as delusional as the pro-Trumps.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1556 on: October 11, 2016, 06:40:36 pm »
Bill, did you read what I wrote?  It's almost like you wrote your answer before you read my comment.

I read it exactly.

What you're doing is assuming a fact to be true -- that there are very large numbers of "true believing" conservative voters out there -- and then coming up with subjective reasons/excuses why those numbers aren't reflected at the polls.  What you have not done is produce any evidence that such voters exist in the first place.  If I missed that part of your post, then could you please highlight or copy it?  Because I've reread your post a couple of times, and still don't see that evidence.

The only thing you said that even came close to constituting "evidence" that such large numbers of non-voting conservatives exist was the claim that "more people voted for conservatives than for Trump."  Though this doesn't address the issue of those who didn't vote at all, let's start there.

Do you consider that Kasich ran as a "true believing" conservative?

Do you consider Rubio a "true believing conservative" even though he did not support Ted Cruz's efforts to shut down the government over ObamaCare?

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1557 on: October 11, 2016, 07:33:07 pm »
@DiogenesLamp

Based on what actual evidence?  Where is the proof that this huge voting bloc of conservatives that never votes actually exists and is willing to vote for the "right" candidate? 

It's difficult to prove a negative, but my evidence is the fact that they don't cast votes for conservative candidates.  And I know all the excuses about voters being "tricked" and "misled" by nasty media campaigns such as the one that supposedly sank Ted Cruz.  But aren't we talking about a silent majority of true blue conservative voters?  Aren't those the exact people who should be able to see through that stuff in a heartbeat, and know that it was just garbage?

I'd suggest that if they really are so easily led off the trail and willing to let Trump have the nomination, then they really weren't true blue conservatives to begin with.
Apparently Conservative voters do cast votes for conservative candidates. Or did you miss the TEA party influence on the last midterm? It was real enough. This time though, other factors are intervening.

For starters, a significant number of those in Congress who ran as Conservatives shed that mask as soon as they were elected. That's discouraging. Many were sent there specifically to get rid of Obamacare, by repealing or de-funding it. That didn't happen, and that will cost some enthusiasm for Conservatives. In this case it put a premium on being an 'outsider', which one candidate claimed to good effect, while using an elected official's having been elected against him, despite decrying him for not going along to get along which made him an outsider. Apparently there is a portion of the electorate which, despite proven ability to perform feats of contorted logic, couldn't pick through that one. An outsider in North Dakota ran as a Conservative and got the GOP nomination for Governor, despite not being one of the Party anointed--something very difficult to do, even here, but something which says Conservatives can and do get the vote.

The arguably most Conservative candidate in the Presidential Primaries was subjected to a prolonged and well timed campaign of lies and smears, targeted by region or demographic when the primaries rolled around in their respective states, all of which were aimed at making him repugnant to Conservatives. Despite that smear campaign against him, he still came in second, and fairly close in actual number of votes. Many lazier people unfortunately only read headlines, and those were often lurid. So they didn't vote for that guy if they bought the spiel of the week (or one of the earlier weeks). I doubt most voters are as well versed as us hardcore internet posters at seeing through false dichotomies, fallacious arguments, misstatements of fact, and the like as we are, but even that would be no guarantee.

Of course, the Party hierarchy has no benefit from running Conservatives, so why would they do anything to assist a Conservative candidate in attaining a nomination or even office? If they aren't on the ticket, they won't get the vote. If they don't have name recognition party backing can get, that's a hard row to hoe, too. So lack of ability to choose a conservative candidate would affect whether or not Conservatives are voted for.

I don't think the ballot results necessarily reflect the political stance of the electorate accurately. Nor do I think they will this time. There is no way to sell Trump to me as a Conservative, despite the fact that many Conservatives will vote for him out of desperation to keep Hillary out.
Those who vote third party will, depending on Party, reflect some of that conservative vote, but the vast majority of those who might have identified themselves as Conservative likely will hold their noses again and vote otherwise for what they hope is the lesser of two liberals.

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1558 on: October 11, 2016, 07:57:51 pm »
I read it exactly.

What you're doing is assuming a fact to be true -- that there are very large numbers of "true believing" conservative voters out there -- and then coming up with subjective reasons/excuses why those numbers aren't reflected at the polls.  What you have not done is produce any evidence that such voters exist in the first place.  If I missed that part of your post, then could you please highlight or copy it?  Because I've reread your post a couple of times, and still don't see that evidence.

The only thing you said that even came close to constituting "evidence" that such large numbers of non-voting conservatives exist was the claim that "more people voted for conservatives than for Trump."  Though this doesn't address the issue of those who didn't vote at all, let's start there.

Do you consider that Kasich ran as a "true believing" conservative?

Do you consider Rubio a "true believing conservative" even though he did not support Ted Cruz's efforts to shut down the government over ObamaCare?

@Maj. Bill Martin

You used the same type of evidence you claim I am using to show that they don't exist.  I simply pointed out that that was not necessarily a correct conclusion, based on the evidence we have.  At this point I don't know if they exist or not, but the party continuing to pick non-conservatives is not evidence either of their existence or their non-existence.  The will of the party may well (and, I believe it does) not reflect the wishes of the voters.

It may be evidence of their influence though.  Which is pretty minimal.

Just curious - where did the "true believing conservative" phrase come from? 

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1559 on: October 11, 2016, 08:19:40 pm »
@Maj. Bill Martin

You used the same type of evidence you claim I am using to show that they don't exist.

Well, I'm being asked to prove a negative "prove they're not their".  The only possible evidence of that is to show that they don't vote, which I've shown.

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At this point I don't know if they exist or not, but the party continuing to pick non-conservatives is not evidence either of their existence or their non-existence.  The will of the party may well (and, I believe it does) not reflect the wishes of the voters.

I agree.  But I think where this discussion gets squishy is in terms of defining "conservatives". 

Quote
Just curious - where did the "true believing conservative" phrase come from?

Hell if I know.  Someone else mentioned it, so I ran with it.  Again, this started in the context of the feasibility of a third party.  The difficult part is that a lot of these discussions come down to a condemnation of "RINO's", and lamenting that there aren't enough staunch conservatives.  Often, the context is a failure to support Cruz's attempted filibusters, etc.   So the idea we're trying to capture is that of a consistent conservative in the mode of a Ted Cruz, because the rest of them are staying with the GOP.

So if we're talking about a new, conservative Third Party, the paradigm for the type of candidate would seem to be a pre-Trump endorsement Ted Cruz.  He'd need at least 40 million votes to win a three way race (and that's giving him every possible break), and I just can't fathom where the 32 million people who didn't vote for him in the primary, but would vote for him in the general election, are actually coming from.  It seems to be a huge assumption to me without any basis in fact.


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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1560 on: October 11, 2016, 08:36:29 pm »
I don't know that he's done that.  In the tape, he very specifically says, "And when you're a star they let you do it." 

Voluntary contact is not battery.

How do we know it was voluntary?

Just because they didn't kick him in the nuts when he did it doesn't mean the contact was consensual or voluntary.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Cruz: I'm voting for Trump
« Reply #1561 on: October 11, 2016, 08:39:31 pm »
Well, I'm being asked to prove a negative "prove they're not their".  The only possible evidence of that is to show that they don't vote, which I've shown.

I agree.  But I think where this discussion gets squishy is in terms of defining "conservatives". 

Hell if I know.  Someone else mentioned it, so I ran with it.  Again, this started in the context of the feasibility of a third party.  The difficult part is that a lot of these discussions come down to a condemnation of "RINO's", and lamenting that there aren't enough staunch conservatives.  Often, the context is a failure to support Cruz's attempted filibusters, etc.   So the idea we're trying to capture is that of a consistent conservative in the mode of a Ted Cruz, because the rest of them are staying with the GOP.

So if we're talking about a new, conservative Third Party, the paradigm for the type of candidate would seem to be a pre-Trump endorsement Ted Cruz.  He'd need at least 40 million votes to win a three way race (and that's giving him every possible break), and I just can't fathom where the 32 million people who didn't vote for him in the primary, but would vote for him in the general election, are actually coming from.  It seems to be a huge assumption to me without any basis in fact.

@Maj. Bill Martin, I stay away from the "what is a conservative" argument as a rule.  Just wasting time arguing about it.  If you thought that was somehow part of my argument, it wasn't.

As for "The only possible evidence of that is to show that they don't vote, which I've shown", no, you haven't shown that any more than I've shown that they do.  My apologies, I'm obviously not being clear enough.

3rd party?  I guess it's worth discussing at least.