Wash, Reince, and Repeat After Me: Take This Party and Shove It

[sneakypete]

@skeeter   @Idaho_Cowboy

BTW,there was more than one reason the Pacific Army vets of WW-2 called McArthur "Dugout Doug".

[skeeter]

@skeeter

The SOB should have been backed up against a wall and shot.

As for the Philippines,McArthur did everything he could do to destroy the fledgling guerilla war in the Philippines lead by Major Wendell Fertig because Fertig had failed to surrender when ordered by Wainwright,and had not only "gone rogue" by forming his own guerilla army without permission,but this Engineer Major had the GALL to promote himself to General without even having graduated from West Point! Hell,he was even a Reserve officer,not a professional! McArthur wanted him brought to Australia to be court-martialed for posing as a General Officer and for refusing to follow his orders to surrender,and replace him with a officer from his staff. Somebody managed to convince that ego-maniac that the thing to do since Fertig was already in place and leading Philippine and US troops against the Japanese  to let him remain and then take credit for it himself because he supported Fertig.

I did not know that. Time to google.

[jpsb]

Worse IMO his ego demanded that the US waste thousands of US lives taking Peleliu and, frankly, the Philippines. Because he said he'd return. Both campaigns contributed very little to ultimately victory in the Pacific.

So how many nations have you defeated?

Below is how The General earned his two Distinguished Service Crosses.

An outstanding student, he held several leadership positions within the Corps of Cadets including First Captain in his final year at the academy. Graduating in 1903, MacArthur ranked first in his 93-man class.

1914 Mexico
Finding that an advance from the city would require the use of a railroad, he set out with a small party to locate locomotives. Finding several in Alvarado, MacArthur and his men were forced to fight their way back to the American lines. Successfully delivering the locomotives, his name was put forward by Chief of Staff Major General Leonard Wood for the Medal of Honor. Though the commander in Veracruz, Brigadier General Frederick Funston, recommended the award, the board tasked with making the determination declined issuing the medal citing that the operation had occurred without the knowledge of the commanding general.

WW1
With the formation of the 42nd Division, MacArthur was promoted to colonel and made its chief of staff. Sailing for France with the division in October 1917, he earned his first Silver Star when he accompanied a French trench raid the following February. On March 9, MacArthur joined a trench raid conducted by the 42nd. Moving forward with the 168th Infantry Regiment, his leadership earned him a Distinguished Service Cross. On June 26, 1918, MacArthur was promoted to brigadier general becoming the youngest general in the American Expeditionary Force. During the Second Battle of the Marne that July and August, he earned three more Silver Stars and was given command of the 84th Infantry Brigade.

Taking part in the Battle of Saint-Mihiel in September, MacArthur was awarded two additional Silver Stars for his leadership during the battle and subsequent operations. Shifted north, the 42nd Division joined the Meuse-Argonne Offensive in mid-October. Attacking near Châtillon, MacArthur was wounded while scouting a gap in the German barbed wire. Though again nominated for the Medal of Honor for his part in the action, he was denied a second time and instead awarded a second Distinguished Service Cross. Quickly recovering, MacArthur led his brigade through the final campaigns of the war. After briefly commanding the 42nd Division, he saw occupation duty in the Rhineland before returning to the United States in April 1919.

[skeeter]

So how many nations have you defeat?

Below is how The General earned his two Distinguished Service Crosses.

An outstanding student, he held several leadership positions within the Corps of Cadets including First Captain in his final year at the academy. Graduating in 1903, MacArthur ranked first in his 93-man class.

1914 Mexico
Finding that an advance from the city would require the use of a railroad, he set out with a small party to locate locomotives. Finding several in Alvarado, MacArthur and his men were forced to fight their way back to the American lines. Successfully delivering the locomotives, his name was put forward by Chief of Staff Major General Leonard Wood for the Medal of Honor. Though the commander in Veracruz, Brigadier General Frederick Funston, recommended the award, the board tasked with making the determination declined issuing the medal citing that the operation had occurred without the knowledge of the commanding general.

WW1
With the formation of the 42nd Division, MacArthur was promoted to colonel and made its chief of staff. Sailing for France with the division in October 1917, he earned his first Silver Star when he accompanied a French trench raid the following February. On March 9, MacArthur joined a trench raid conducted by the 42nd. Moving forward with the 168th Infantry Regiment, his leadership earned him a Distinguished Service Cross. On June 26, 1918, MacArthur was promoted to brigadier general becoming the youngest general in the American Expeditionary Force. During the Second Battle of the Marne that July and August, he earned three more Silver Stars and was given command of the 84th Infantry Brigade.

Taking part in the Battle of Saint-Mihiel in September, MacArthur was awarded two additional Silver Stars for his leadership during the battle and subsequent operations. Shifted north, the 42nd Division joined the Meuse-Argonne Offensive in mid-October. Attacking near Châtillon, MacArthur was wounded while scouting a gap in the German barbed wire. Though again nominated for the Medal of Honor for his part in the action, he was denied a second time and instead awarded a second Distinguished Service Cross. Quickly recovering, MacArthur led his brigade through the final campaigns of the war. After briefly commanding the 42nd Division, he saw occupation duty in the Rhineland before returning to the United States in April 1919.

Why make it personal?

Fact is Macarthur spent 30 thousand US lives retaking real estate that had no significant tactical or strategic value to the war.

The best reason he could manage was the US will lose prestige if we did not sacrifice to retake the archipelago. Then we granted independence to them in '46.

Disagree if you like but a good case can be made that Macarthur's ego was the motive force behind the entire campaign.

[jpsb]

@skeeter

The SOB should have been backed up against a wall and shot.

As for the Philippines,McArthur did everything he could do to destroy the fledgling guerilla war in the Philippines lead by Major Wendell Fertig because Fertig had failed to surrender when ordered by Wainwright,and had not only "gone rogue" by forming his own guerilla army without permission,but this Engineer Major had the GALL to promote himself to General without even having graduated from West Point! Hell,he was even a Reserve officer,not a professional! McArthur wanted him brought to Australia to be court-martialed for posing as a General Officer and for refusing to follow his orders to surrender,and replace him with a officer from his staff. Somebody managed to convince that ego-maniac that the thing to do since Fertile was already in place and leading Philippine and US troops against the Japanese  to let him remain and then take credit for it himself because he supported Fertig.

An junior field grade officer (Major) in the American army is not allowed to promote themselves to a general grade officer (General). The order to surrender part of your post is pure BS.

Recognizing that he needed a higher rank, so he would be taken seriously by potential recruits to his struggle, including the leaders of other existing guerrilla bands, Fertig promoted himself to brigadier general.[24] This self-promotion to "brigadier general" did not endear him to General MacArthur or his staff,[25] but MacArthur did send logistical support to Fertig throughout 1943 and 1944

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Fertig

[jpsb]

Why make it personal?

Fact is Macarthur spent 30 thousand US lives retaking real estate that had no significant tactical or strategic value to the war.

The best reason he could manage was the US will lose prestige if we did not sacrifice to retake the archipelago. Then we granted independence to them in '46.

Disagree if you like but a good case can be made that Macarthur's ego was the motive force behind the entire campaign.

President Roosevelt made the decision to liberate the Philippines after listening to Admiral Nimitz and General MacArthur.

The Philippines at that time was an America territory being plundered by a very cruel Japanese Army. Leaving the Philippines in the hands of a vengeful enraged Japanese Army would have been a disaster.  Retaking the Philippines cost 16,303 American lives not 30,000. The Japanese lost 336,352 lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_Campaign_(1944%E2%80%9345)

[skeeter]

President Roosevelt made the decision to liberate the Philippines after listening to Admiral Nimitz and General MacArthur.

The Philippines at that time was an America territory being plundered by a very cruel Japanese Army. Leaving the Philippines in the hands of a vengeful enraged Japanese Army would have been a disaster.  Retaking the Philippines cost 16,303 American lives not 30,000. The Japanese lost 336,352 lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_Campaign_(1944%E2%80%9345)

The navy lost nearly 7,300. 2,300 died on Peleliu - a total waste.

[musiclady]

@sneakypete

I don't have anything to contribute to this discussion, since I'm not educated enough to do so, but I just want to state that I have been reading your posts, and very much appreciate your knowledge of military history, and the information you have provided here.

So THANKS! 

[sneakypete]

So how many nations have you defeated?

Below is how The General earned his two Distinguished Service Crosses.

Blah,blah,blah.

Being awarded a medal is NOT the same thing as earning one. Especially when your daddy is a senior General and holding of a MoH himself

This is comparable with Trump declaring himself a successful businessman. Not hard to be successful when your father starts you out with 14 million bucks and introduces you to all his political contacts and guides you along the way. "Earning" the other 200 million that set him on his feet financially when his father died didn't hurt,either.

McArthur was a vain,petty like dictator that awarded medals to himself for the actions of people under his command. He even awarded himself two Purple Hearts in the 1930's  for wounds he never received in WW-1.

[sneakypete]

An junior field grade officer (Major) in the American army is not allowed to promote themselves to a general grade officer (General). The order to surrender part of your post is pure BS.<<

Are you calling me a liar? Are you seriously claiming that Wainwright didn't order all the US troops in the Philippines to surrender,and that McArthur didn't want to court-martial him for surrendering?

Or that he was so pissed at a junior officer,a reserve officer on top of that that didn't go to West Point "Self-promoted" himself to General after refusing to follow the surrender orders of another General  that he didn'w want Fertig brought to Australia so he could be court-martialed for posing as a General Officer?

The FACT is McArthur wanted to send one of his hand-picked staff officers down to replace Fertig so that he could then claim credit for the entire guerilla war effort there,and most likely put himself up for another medal. Someone or several someones on his staff talked him out of that by convincing him that he could still take credit for the guerilla army there and their successes by accepting Fertig as the commander and putting him under his chain of command.

>>Recognizing that he needed a higher rank, so he would be taken seriously by potential recruits to his struggle, including the leaders of other existing guerrilla bands, Fertig promoted himself to brigadier general.[24] This self-promotion to "brigadier general" did not endear him to General MacArthur or his staff,[25] but MacArthur did send logistical support to Fertig throughout 1943 and 1944<<

Yeah,once he was forced to face the reality that Fertig was there doing the job and there was nothing he could do about it,he accepted it once he was convinced he could still take credit for it BY accepting Fertig as the senior officer in the occupied Philippines.

McArthur was a piece of shit from beginning to end that did nothing but take credit for the risks and accomplishments of other people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Fertig

[sneakypete]

The navy lost nearly 7,300. 2,300 died on Peleliu - a total waste.

@skeeter

To be more precise,the vast majority of the Navy personnel that died were US Marines, The Navy did lose a few boat drivers and pilots,but I don't know how many.

LOTS of those Marines died when they boats dropped the ramps and told them to "go" when they were so far away from the beach that it was almost guaranteed most wouldn't make it there in one piece. I have forgotten if this was because somebody screwed up the beach and tide survey prior to the invasion planning,the boat drivers screwed up and dumped them off early by mistake,or if the Navy was just so sure their massive bombardment by aircraft and naval shipping had basically destroyed the Japanese ability to respond. They were wrong,and the Marines wading through waist-deep water were facing Japanese machine guns in concrete bunkers,Artillery Fire,and even mortar fire as they waded through the water to the beach.

Or even all of that combined. What I do know is an awful lot of good young men died or were crippled for life that day that didn't need to be dead or crippled.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

I don't have anything to contribute to this discussion, since I'm not educated enough to do so, but I just want to state that I have been reading your posts, and very much appreciate your knowledge of military history, and the information you have provided here.

So THANKS! 

@musiclady

You are welcome,and thank you for the encouragement.

[musiclady]

@musiclady

You are welcome,and thank you for the encouragement.

Not a problem!  Credit where credit is due, and all that.  ^-^

[skeeter]

@skeeter

To be more precise,the vast majority of the Navy personnel that died were US Marines, The Navy did lose a few boat drivers and pilots,but I don't know how many.

LOTS of those Marines died when they boats dropped the ramps and told them to "go" when they were so far away from the beach that it was almost guaranteed most wouldn't make it there in one piece. I have forgotten if this was because somebody screwed up the beach and tide survey prior to the invasion planning,the boat drivers screwed up and dumped them off early by mistake,or if the Navy was just so sure their massive bombardment by aircraft and naval shipping had basically destroyed the Japanese ability to respond. They were wrong,and the Marines wading through waist-deep water were facing Japanese machine guns in concrete bunkers,Artillery Fire,and even mortar fire as they waded through the water to the beach.

Or even all of that combined. What I do know is an awful lot of good young men died or were crippled for life that day that didn't need to be dead or crippled.

I know the navy lost a good number of sailors due to major actions they fought around the Philippines plus the introduction of the Kamikaze as a tactical weapon. I had heard about the difficulties the marines had landing men at Tarawa (the first amphibious landing of its kind for US during WWII), had not heard of the same for Peleliu or anywhere in the Philippines. Back to google.

[INVAR]

Why don't you fellas create a new discussion topic on the merits and demerits of Macarthur instead of drifting this one?

I discern this will grow into a major discussion about history and will be lost in a thread about bolting the GOP and telling Priebus to shove it.

@sneakypete
@skeeter
@jpsb

[musiclady]

Why don't you fellas create a new discussion topic on the merits and demerits of Macarthur instead of drifting this one?

I discern this will grow into a major discussion about history and will be lost in a thread about bolting the GOP and telling Priebus to shove it.

@sneakypete
@skeeter
@jpsb

Good idea.

Can the mods transfer the comments already made here into a new thread with an appropriate title?

[sneakypete]

Why don't you fellas create a new discussion topic on the merits and demerits of Macarthur instead of drifting this one?

I discern this will grow into a major discussion about history and will be lost in a thread about bolting the GOP and telling Priebus to shove it.

@sneakypete
@skeeter
@jpsb

@INVAR  @musiclady

What we NEED is a dedicated history topic separated by wars,centuries,and even continents,as well as a "History" ping list so that everyone interested in history can subscribe to it and automatically be pinged anytime anyone starts new history threads.

We ain't going to get it,though.

[musiclady]

@INVAR  @musiclady

What we NEED is a dedicated history topic separated by wars,centuries,and even continents,as well as a "History" ping list so that everyone interested in history can subscribe to it and automatically be pinged anytime anyone starts new history threads.

We ain't going to get it,though.

Why not?  The ping list is easy.  The category can be set up (lots of new categories have been added).

Somebody just needs to get the ball rolling.....

[sneakypete]

Why not?  The ping list is easy.  The category can be set up (lots of new categories have been added).

Somebody just needs to get the ball rolling.....

@musiclady

The way ping lists work the person that starts the thread doesn't ping ANYONE to it. He just adds the thread to the WW2 History (in this case) ping list,and everyone that has subscribed to that ping list get an automatic notification that a new thread or a new post to  an existing thread automatically shows up when they check for new posts. None of this stupid "@" crap where you have to remember a bunch of mostly bizarre screen names and make sure you make no typos.

[Smokin Joe]

@INVAR  @musiclady

What we NEED is a dedicated history topic separated by wars,centuries,and even continents,as well as a "History" ping list so that everyone interested in history can subscribe to it and automatically be pinged anytime anyone starts new history threads.

We ain't going to get it,though.

  @mystery-ak

How about one? I think it would be a great idea!

[jpsb]

@sneakypete

I don't have anything to contribute to this discussion, since I'm not educated enough to do so, but I just want to state that I have been reading your posts, and very much appreciate your knowledge of military history, and the information you have provided here.

So THANKS! 

@musiclady

I hope you took note, that I refuted every allegation made by @sneakypete with facts and links that back those facts up.

[sneakypete]

@musiclady

I hope you took note, that I refuted every allegation made by @sneakypete with facts and links that back those facts up.

@jpsb

ROFLMAO! Yeah,because we all know that if there is one thing true in life,it's that the internet would NEVER lie to you!

If I wanted,I could probably find a link that would "prove" the earth is square.