Author Topic: If you’ve reached “the end of Conservatism” because of Trump, your conservatism was pretty thin  (Read 17546 times)

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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Well, we sided with the Soviets against Hitler.  Doesn't mean we liked the commie bast*rds.

We should vote for someone we don't like?  How far are we willing to bend on principle?  There is an important message in the Bible about foundation.  When you stray your house is shaky.

I guess for some people the message seems to be if you can't beat them join them!  (in the sinking sand)
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn't fall, for it was founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn't do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.

— Matthew 7:24–27

 :amen:  The Word for the day.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline don-o

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This high moral horse should be put out to pasture by everyone working to defeat Hillary, keeping in mind that all the horses will be welcomed back to the stable once the race is done, no matter who wins. As long as Trump was losing badly to Hillary in the polls, the anti-Trump folks were free to crow and preen, singing an I Told You So song. Now the winds appear to be shifting and the real estate mogul is at least pulling even, if not ahead, both nationally and in key swing states. He may win or he may come up with the same losing margin that Mitt Romney did. Neither would be as rewarding to those fighting Trump from behind his own lines as an electoral wipeout, but once the smoke clears, none of that will matter.


@don-o

I don't like the term, but the horse is not being put to its proper role. The true moral choice is the decision to participate in the process. Then one has the obligation to utilize the faculty of prudential judgement to ascertain better or worse outcomes. The assertion that there is "no difference" is a careless abandonment of that moral obligation.

After the election, we will get the Worldview / Anthropology board going again and look at the roots of what has gotten us into the mess we are in. We're going to continue to examine the materialist mindset and its goddess, Progress, which is a sabotage to the bedrock principles (metaphysical and transcendent) which a republic must preserve.

Private property and free enterprise is in that bedrock.

I challenge anyone to put forth a scintilla of evidence that Clinton has any intention of promoting either of those in Obama's third term.

I'll finish with a different animal analogy. The creatures in God's creation have different instinctual behaviors for self preservation. I have never understood the ostrich's.

@LonestarDream



Wingnut

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Congress is who does everything.


Or nothing.  Which is usually for the better.

Offline sinkspur

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I challenge anyone to put forth a scintilla of evidence that Clinton has any intention of promoting either of those in Obama's third term. 

@LonestarDream

Ironic that you would mention private property (Trump is a major advocate for eminent domain) and free enterprise (Trump's trade policies are anathema to free enterprise). 
 
Neither candidate is worth a vote if those are major criteria.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline don-o

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That's the part of this process that is the most frightening.  It is the length to which some people will go to redefine what they believe in order to support their chosen candidate. I will likely vote for Trump, but I will not pollute what I believe to do it.

This is the proper exercise of prudential judgement. More will figure that out. 

Offline Smokin Joe

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Well then call a spade a spade. If I'm a fascist or boot-licker then present your evidence.
If you examine my statement:
Quote
I would expect a Conservative to call a spade a spade, call it as they see it. If you see it differently, come up with some evidence to refute those positions.
I never called anyone anything, just said what I would expect a conservative to do.
Now you are putting words in my mouth I didn't say. Why don't you ask the person who did?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline don-o

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If the insults don't stop I will lock this thread

How about locking the insulters?

Online GtHawk

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  • I don't believe in Trump anymore, he's an illusion

I never was conservative because conservatives, by and large, will grow government for their purposes. In that sense I am more libertarian in that I wouldn't grow government.

Hillary is the present worst case as POTUS. Trump is to be determined.
So, just like “But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what's in it....” , we have to elect the Trump to find out how bad the Trump will be? Thanks, but no thanks, fool me once and all that. **nononono* **nononono* **nononono*

Silver Pines

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Personally I don't see how anyone could still be trying to convince themselves that Trump is any different than Hillary.  Not after the past few days.  He wants paid maternity leave and to expand Medicaid.  He said that he doesn't care if the Senate goes to the Democrats. 

Yet we're still supposed to believe he'll appoint decent Supreme Court judges.

Trump has shown that he will listen to the advice of his liberal Democrat feminist daughter over anyone else.  Why?  Because he's a Democrat, too.

I just listened to Steve Deace being interviewed by Glenn Beck.  I think it was the best interview I've ever heard, all credit to Deace.  He made note of quite a few uncomfortable truths about the state of the church in this country.  Observing that 80% of Christians in pre-WWII Germany were willing to deny Christ as the head of the church and instead affirm Hitler in the position, he said that, when Christians panic, many of them are willing to turn to authoritarians to save them.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Private property and free enterprise is in that bedrock.

I challenge anyone to put forth a scintilla of evidence that Clinton has any intention of promoting either of those in Obama's third term.

I'll finish with a different animal analogy. The creatures in God's creation have different instinctual behaviors for self preservation. I have never understood the ostrich's.

@LonestarDream
If private property and free enterprise are the bedrock, how will voting for someone who has used Kelo to try to obtain private property, and made payments contributions to politicians (just doing business) which thwarts free enterprise for those who cannot afford to do so, how is that going to promote either?

Nope, he won't get my vote either, I will use it to help bolster a Party and nominee who would promote both free enterprise and private property. While that candidate will not win the election, it will improve the position of that party in the scrum of third parties and perhaps lead to some real reform back toward a Constitutional Republic in the future. I see neither of the two major party candidates as advancing toward that goal, nor even holding the line.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Silver Pines

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That's the part of this process that is the most frightening.  It is the length to which some people will go to redefine what they believe in order to support their chosen candidate.  I will likely vote for Trump, but I will not pollute what I believe to do it.

@Just_Victor

But at some point you'll have to come to terms with the fact that conservatism itself has been polluted by supporting Trump.  We will forever cede the moral high ground by doing so, and the next generation will refuse to consider conservatism because of its association with an amoral man who personifies the negative cliches they always heard.

Sorry, but we can't support the man and at the same time disavow responsibility.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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We should vote for someone we don't like?  How far are we willing to bend on principle?  There is an important message in the Bible about foundation.  When you stray your house is shaky.

I guess for some people the message seems to be if you can't beat them join them!  (in the sinking sand)

That didn't address the point.  The Soviet Union was evil.  Do you think we nevertheless should not have supported it against Hitler?  And in that context, I'd remind you that the German actually declared war on us after Pearl Harbor.

I agree that when we are talking about our personal actions, over which we have full individual control over infinite choices, we should not do evil.   But that is not the case in term decisions made by a nation/voters as a whole.  So in that context, where we are not able to dictate results simply through our own choices, and the result is going to be one of only two options, it is not immoral to chose one of those even if it is not morally good on its own.  Some of our soldiers have been faced with horrible decisions when children are used as potential suicide bombers.   Shoot the child as he/she advances towards friendlies, or not take the shot because it is "immoral" to kill a child who may not even be doing that action by choice?  Those are the only two choices -- is it "wrong" to take the one that is the least immoral, in order to prevent a greater harm?

We don't always get to determine the options between which we must choose.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 03:13:24 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Or nothing.  Which is usually for the better.
Everyone wails when there is "gridlock" in D.C.

Not me.

It should be a drinking game, and ideally, one that would leave players crawling in the scuppers.

That government governs best which governs least.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Everyone wails when there is "gridlock" in D.C.

Not me.

It should be a drinking game, and ideally, one that would leave players crawling in the scuppers.

That government governs best which governs least.

Read a great line by someone on another site -- "I don't want a government that gets things done -- I want a government that gets things undone."

Offline Jazzhead

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Sorry, but we can't support the man and at the same time disavow responsibility.

True.  If you vote for Trump, even as the lesser of two evils, he'll stick to you like glue. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline endicom

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So, just like “But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what's in it....” , we have to elect the Trump to find out how bad the Trump will be? Thanks, but no thanks, fool me once and all that. **nononono* **nononono* **nononono*


Sorry to see you were fooled.

Wingnut

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Everyone wails when there is "gridlock" in D.C.

Not me.

It should be a drinking game, and ideally, one that would leave players crawling in the scuppers.

That government governs best which governs least.

Yep.

Read a great line by someone on another site -- "I don't want a government that gets things done -- I want a government that gets things undone."

Even better! 

 :patriot:


Silver Pines

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True.  If you vote for Trump, even as the lesser of two evils, he'll stick to you like glue.

There are plenty of examples of people walking around smeared with that glue. 

Offline endicom

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True.  If you vote for Trump, even as the lesser of two evils, he'll stick to you like glue.


If you effectively elect Hillary, she'll stick to you like glue.


Offline sinkspur

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Weeding out who will support Hillary is pollution or purification?

You better worry about getting Birther Boy elected.  He's not backing off his Birther claim.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline endicom

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You better worry about getting Birther Boy elected.  He's not backing off his Birther claim.


Except that he is. Other than that he isn't. But he is.

And the Big Birther of the 2008 campaign was Hillary Clinton. So, we should want to do nothing to get Big Birther elected.

Offline Smokin Joe

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That didn't address the point.  I agree when we are talking about our personal actions, over which we have full individual control.  But that is not the case in term decisions made by a nation/voters as a whole.  So in that context, where we are not able to dictate results simply through our own choices, and the result is going to be one of only two things, it is not immoral to chose one of those even if it is not morally good on it's own.  The Soviet Union was evil.  Do you think we nevertheless should not have supported it against Hitler?  And in that context, I'd remind you that the German actually declared war on us after Pearl Harbor.
Go back a war, to when Kaiser Willhelm sent for Lenin and had him go to Moscow for the purpose of destabilizing (further) the Romanov government. That led to the Soviet Union, but it worked, throwing forces into disarray along the Eastern Front. Now, back to WWII after Operation Barbarossa commenced. Allied aid to the Soviets helped keep that front active, tying up German assets and taking enough pressure off the Western Front to enable the D-Day invasion and the defeat of the Germans without having to fight the entire German military, something which would have been much more difficult to accomplish and would have cost tremendously more in men and materiel. There was tangible benefit in doing so to help defeat the Nazis, and not just for the Soviets, but for our own forces.
Quote

Some of our soldiers have been faced with horrible decisions when children are used as potential suicide bombers.   Shoot the child as he/she advances towards friendlies, or not take the shot because it is "immoral" to kill a child who may not even be doing that action by choice?
The (likely remote detonated) child will die either way. Our troops will benefit by not being blown up.
Quote
We don't also get to determine the options between which we must choose.
Sometimes we do. That is why there are primary elections, to choose the options for the general election, when once again, we choose an option. We can even choose to limit ourselves to the most popular option, an entirely artificial narrowing of options due to the perception that one won't "win" unless they vote for what all the other people are voting for even if it is anathema to them. So the two most popular options were chosen. There remains the choice to select between 70+ party sponsored options, provided that anyone has cleared them for a write-in or put them on the ballot, but realistically, three other options besides the 'big two' will be on the ballot in most states or cleared to  be a viable write-in candidate.

It so happens I find one of those options to be far preferable to the others, so I will vote that way. I will vote for what I want. If others do not, I won't get that, but if I vote for something I don't want, I definitely vote against what I want. That just doesn't make any sense to me, especially as I see the other options to be mostly equally bad.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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If you effectively elect Hillary, she'll stick to you like glue.
If I decide to withhold my vote entirely, how is that "effectively electing Hillary"?

If you're starting that tired stuff that 'not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary', consider, that I'm not voting for Hillary either, so that is a vote for Trump. Actually, I'm voting for Castle, and that is, by that logic, a vote for both Hillary and Trump.

Whee! I'm voting like a dead Democrat in Philladelphia! A three-fer!!!! :silly:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis