Trump Adviser, Son Post Image Featuring Alt-Right Symbol

[Maj. Bill Martin]

A green cartoon frog is a symbol of white nationalism?    I don't get it.   



Also i've never heard of the D@mned thing prior to today.

Neither had I, and unless this was some kind of well-known symbol that the average person would associate with White Nationalism (and it isn't), this is a really bogus attack.  I also noted that there is a black guy in that lineup on the left, so I can very easily see why "White Nationalism" wouldn't spring to mind.  I don't think candidates have an obligation to troll racist websites so that they are up to date on the latest memes.

And now it looks like someone is drawing inferences from the "88 generals" thing.  Again, I think 95% of the population wouldn't have made that association in a million years, and I certainly don't blame Trump for it.

Honestly, in terms of "racism", Trump has made some statements that offended some Mexicans (the "rapist" comment).  But I really haven't seen him say or do anything that suggests racism towards African-Americans, nor have I heard him say anything negative about Jews.  If I missed it, then I hope someone enlightens me.  And I don't accept neutral statements to which someone else has attached an unstated meaning as evidence of racism/bigotry. 

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to levy at Trump, including his recent proposal for paid maternity leave.  No need to hunt down obscure references and try to imply that Trump had some secret racist motive.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Chrissy Matthews was actually talking about Pepe the Frog during his segment yesterday. I dunno how he was able to do so with a straight face.

The Hillary seizure video was so bad I think they're looking for anything to throw at Trump.

[Cripplecreek]

I always think of a piano when I think of the number 88, too.  But just because 88 is only a number and can be associated with any number of things, does not mean that it is not also very significant to white supremacists.  It is just something to know.  It doesn't make the number 88 into a swastika (that symbol is ruined forever).  It is just important to know their terminology so you can spot it and know what evil thing they mean by it. 

Use the knowledge or don't.  Your choice.

Exactly, being aware is good. No one is going to eliminate the number 88 or parentheses, only recognize them in context.

As I've said before, the neo nazi types also have a love of viking and crusader imagery but those images alone are not indicative of racism. After all, our friend @mystery-ak has long used a knight avatar but shows no signs of racism that I've seen in all the years I've known her on line.

Its kind of like real climate science vs global warming alarmism. You can't say, "It's hot today so global warming is real". You have to look at a whole array of factors.

[driftdiver]

A green cartoon frog is a symbol of white nationalism?    I don't get it.   



Also i've never heard of the D@mned thing prior to today.

Why would they put it out in this manner?   Are they so egotistical that they think nobody is going to notice?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

You can google it in about 5 seconds.

How would a normal person even know to google the damn thing in the first place?  Am we supposed to google every number, every image, every possible word combination to see if some nutbags have attached some weird, idiosyncratic meaning to it?

Heck, if we're throwing mud, I'd say that those of you hopping all over this stuff must be bigots yourself to even know of it in the first place.  How would that feel?

If something like this happens -- some seemingly innocuous image turns out to have some bizarre meaning -- then the proper response is simply to not use that image again once you are informed of that linkage.  But other than that, expecting Trump to jump out and comment on every racist group or supporter accomplishes nothing other than to establish a link between "Trump" and "racism" in the minds of voters.  It reminds me of this:

There is a story in politics, commonly attributed to Lyndon B. Johnson, about how LBJ wanted to circulate a rumor attacking his opponent in a Texas election. Johnson, it's said, wanted to spread the story that his opponent liked to have sex with barnyard animals. One of LBJ's aides said, "We can't prove he's a pig f----r."

"I know that," replied Johnson. "I just want to hear him deny it."

That's a common trick of the left.  Accuse someone of something false so that their refutation/rejection becomes the news of the day, and people who might otherwise have been unaware of the allegation start wondering if there might be come truth to it.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I read they also like the movie A Clockwork Orange and the top hat and white clothes associated with it.   Odd bunch.

Great.  So if I posted somewhere that I liked that movie (I didn't), then someone is going to assume I'm really a racist.

Letting the fringes attach idiosyncratic meanings to otherwise innocuous images/numbers/phrases, then imputing those meanings to anyone else who uses those things, is ridiculous.

[Cripplecreek]

I read they also like the movie A Clockwork Orange and the top hat and white clothes associated with it.   Odd bunch.

It feeds their fantasy that they'll have a friendly government that allows them to dish out retribution for perceived wrongs at will.

The reality is that they will quickly find that they themselves will be targeted by that friendly government they hope to get.

[Smokin Joe]

I read they also like the movie A Clockwork Orange and the top hat and white clothes associated with it.   Odd bunch.

From what I have read, those all white clothes, as well as a white tux, are supposed to be a less conspicuous replacement for the hood and sheet Klan outfit.

[Smokin Joe]

Great.  So if I posted somewhere that I liked that movie (I didn't), then someone is going to assume I'm really a racist.

Letting the fringes attach idiosyncratic meanings to otherwise innocuous images/numbers/phrases, then imputing those meanings to anyone else who uses those things, is ridiculous.

The thing about code phrases or images is that they are not meant to mean anything to YOU unless you are part of the clique which uses them. It's like Dopers with 420. If you aren't a doper, LEO, or school administrator, it's a number, a time, even Adolf Hitler's birthday, but for pot smokers, it's code for "time to get high".

You can ignore symbology like that, if you want, but if you have kids in school, it's best to know what it means, not necessarily to the general population, but in terms of things you might not want around you or your kids involved with.

With wider cultural concepts as well, it isn't about what it means to you, it's about what it means to them, even though not every instance or appearance of the symbol or 'code' will be anything but an innocent coincidence.

For instance, kids draw rainbows all the time. They're pretty, they are also the symbol God said he'd put in the heavens to remind us he'd never again destroy the world by water (Gen 9:13), yet that same symbol and color scheme has been hijacked by the homosexuals. Ignore the latter, and you may find yourself in a crowd that might not be a group you would normally exclusively associate with. But your kids drawing them in preschool doesn't mean they have thrown in with the GLBTQ crowd.

[Smokin Joe]

It feeds their fantasy that they'll have a friendly government that allows them to dish out retribution for perceived wrongs at will.

The reality is that they will quickly find that they themselves will be targeted by that friendly government they hope to get.

If I had to pick one thing Trump harnessed in his campaign, it was anger. Anger at a poor economy, anger at the impotence of the GOP majority in Congress, anger at continued economic folly, anger at Obamacare, anger at the perceived disparity in benefits some receive while others are supposed to pay for them, anger at the anger of the BLM crowd, anger at transgender bathrooms, you name it, there is lots to be angry about, and Trump harnessed that.
Racially biased groups are already angry, and that is something he readily exploited.
There is historical precedent for those angry supporters being the targets of the government they hope to get, it has happened before with other groups in other places.

[Sanguine]

If I had to pick one thing Trump harnessed in his campaign, it was anger. Anger at a poor economy, anger at the impotence of the GOP majority in Congress, anger at continued economic folly, anger at Obamacare, anger at the perceived disparity in benefits some receive while others are supposed to pay for them, anger at the anger of the BLM crowd, anger at transgender bathrooms, you name it, there is lots to be angry about, and Trump harnessed that.
Racially biased groups are already angry, and that is something he readily exploited.
There is historical precedent for those angry supporters being the targets of the government they hope to get, it has happened before with other groups in other places.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

You can ignore symbology like that, if you want, but if you have kids in school, it's best to know what it means, not necessarily to the general population, but in terms of things you might not want around you or your kids involved with.

I am not saying to ignore symbology.  I am saying it is unfair to impute the meanings of such symbols to those who are unaware for them.  And in many cases, acquiring that knowledge is really a product of happenstance.  For example, I've never even taken a puff of weed in my life, and had no idea about the number 420 until I saw it in this thread.  If I retweeted (although I don't do Twitter) something with 420 in it, does that mean it is fair to say I'm endorsing pot usage?

[Smokin Joe]

I am not saying to ignore symbology.  I am saying it is unfair to impute the meanings of such symbols to those who are unaware for them.  And in many cases, acquiring that knowledge is really a product of happenstance.  For example, I've never even taken a puff of weed in my life, and had no idea about the number 420 until I saw it in this thread.  If I retweeted (although I don't do Twitter) something with 420 in it, does that mean it is fair to say I'm endorsing pot usage?

If it had been used by someone to mean "time to get high" others who used it that way might interpret it to mean you were one of them and open to the idea. That one is in wide enough use it can be found all over.

That isn't saying every cartoon frog is a white supremacist icon, quite the opposite, otherwise Kermit..Who knew?  But in context, it is good to be aware of these things and the possible meanings they might convey.

While you don't see it as much as you used to , I can recall numerous (humorous) instances of movies in which some guy ended up 'married' to the native girl over some gesture which might otherwise be considered innocuous in our culture.

If you aren't aware of the symbols, you could end up sending messages you don't want to, or ignoring signs you might want to be aware of. That doesn't mean every time you see them they are intended symbols, but might warrant further monitoring to determine if they are.

If your 5 year old draws a rainbow, feel free to put it up on the fridge. No one will expect you at the Pride Parade. 

[Longmire]

I think Shapiro pretty much nailed it.

Shapiro has been a frequent target of the ex-Alt-ed Right so he's probably not gonna have an objective read on them.

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

If I had to pick one thing Trump harnessed in his campaign, it was anger. Anger at a poor economy, anger at the impotence of the GOP majority in Congress, anger at continued economic folly, anger at Obamacare, anger at the perceived disparity in benefits some receive while others are supposed to pay for them, anger at the anger of the BLM crowd, anger at transgender bathrooms, you name it, there is lots to be angry about, and Trump harnessed that.
Racially biased groups are already angry, and that is something he readily exploited.
There is historical precedent for those angry supporters being the targets of the government they hope to get, it has happened before with other groups in other places.

Nice post.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

I guess I'm the last person to know 88 was something white supremacists use to mean heil hitler.  Looked it up....H is the 8th letter of the alphapet, so HH is 88.  The white nationalists also like the number 14 because it refers to a 14 word mission statement:  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/10/white_supremacists_by_the_numbers.html

I thought it must have been a reference to the famed German 88 Anti-aircraft cannon:
http://worldwar2headquarters.com/HTML/weapons/german/88gun.html

Guess they aren't that subtle.

As conservatives, we need to make it clear we do not have room in the movement for those who do not believe that all men are created equal.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Neither had I, and unless this was some kind of well-known symbol that the average person would associate with White Nationalism (and it isn't), this is a really bogus attack.  I also noted that there is a black guy in that lineup on the left, so I can very easily see why "White Nationalism" wouldn't spring to mind.  I don't think candidates have an obligation to troll racist websites so that they are up to date on the latest memes.

And now it looks like someone is drawing inferences from the "88 generals" thing.  Again, I think 95% of the population wouldn't have made that association in a million years, and I certainly don't blame Trump for it.

Honestly, in terms of "racism", Trump has made some statements that offended some Mexicans (the "rapist" comment).  But I really haven't seen him say or do anything that suggests racism towards African-Americans, nor have I heard him say anything negative about Jews.  If I missed it, then I hope someone enlightens me.  And I don't accept neutral statements to which someone else has attached an unstated meaning as evidence of racism/bigotry. 

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to levy at Trump, including his recent proposal for paid maternity leave.  No need to hunt down obscure references and try to imply that Trump had some secret racist motive.

There is this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/07/25/did-donald-trump-really-say-those-things/
Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino President John R. O’Donnell, in the 1991 book “Trumped,” claimed that Trump once said that “laziness is a trait in blacks.” Here is the full context for the statement, as described in the book. O’Donnell relates a conversation with Trump about a finance employee, who happens to be black and who O’Donnell believes has shortcomings.

Instantly, Donald was enthused. “Yeah, I never liked the guy. I don’t think he knows what the f––– he’s doing. My accountants up in New York are always complaining about him. He’s not responsive. And isn’t it funny, I’ve got black accountants at the Trump Castle and at Trump Plaza. Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. Those are the kind of people I want counting my money. No one else.”

I couldn’t believe I was hearing this. But Donald went on, “Besides that, I’ve got to tell you something else. I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not something they can control. … Don’t you agree?”

[HonestJohn]

I am not saying to ignore symbology.  I am saying it is unfair to impute the meanings of such symbols to those who are unaware for them.  And in many cases, acquiring that knowledge is really a product of happenstance.  For example, I've never even taken a puff of weed in my life, and had no idea about the number 420 until I saw it in this thread.  If I retweeted (although I don't do Twitter) something with 420 in it, does that mean it is fair to say I'm endorsing pot usage?

Nope.

Now, if... like Trump, you had multiple past examples of using such imagery and language, then your use of the term *WOULD* be suspect.

[Cripplecreek]

From the fine folks of the alt right.

[DiogenesLamp]

I've gotten into a bad habit of defending pro-Trump posters who I think possess superior writing skills and quality arguments.  This is usually followed by that poster proving I should have kept my big mouth shut...but I call 'em like I see 'em and you seem to be referring to @DiogenesLamp and I am compelled to disagree with that inference.  I have argued until exasperated with DiogenesLamp and while he is a border warrior, and a Trump supporter,

I am not a Trump supporter!   I am  Anti-Hillary.    Have you not read any of the derogatory things I have said regarding Trump? 

and he likes to argue to the point that he can come full circle and argue the other side eventually...I don't see an alt-right influence with him.  Perhaps he is just that smart that he can conceal it, feign ignorance, and fool me...and I don't doubt that  DiogenesLamp is that smart...but the Pepe images he posted were to rebut that the frog is exclusive to the alt-right.  That is what DiogenesLamp does...he muddies the waters for the sake of arguing, and there is nothing wrong with that because it forces us to rethink, re-evaluate, and retool our arguments.

You guys tell me of this thing of which I had never heard until it is mentioned by you guys ,   it seemed ridiculous to me,  (maybe it's just going over my head)  and someone posts a link that demonstrates this ugly looking cartoon frog has been around since 2004  in various guises.    The linked site also shows a "google trend"  map for the ugly thing,   on which   the far dominant usages are  childish and stupid.   


No noticeable usages as a symbol of racism made the chart.    I'm thinking,  "Just how wide spread could this be? "     The site also features "Pepe"  images of Obama,  Sanders and Clinton,  and I thought it would be a jolly joke to post these examples of anti-Semites (of which I think Obama and Hillary really are.)   and assert that "Pepe"  really is a symbol of anti-Semitism.   

Didn't think anyone would take it seriously. 

I guess my point is that sometimes the guy arguing with you simply disagrees with you, and has no sinister motives...and the accusation of racism when none is present actually hardens the heart of the target so they eventually become less willing to listen.

This is why I go away for days at a time.   Reading  hundreds of iterations of "Trump is awful"   gets boring.    Same thing with any other rant. 

I could be naive, maybe I don't want to think a bright fellow like DiogenesLamp harbors a black soul, but maybe he too doesn't want to believe the GOP is infected, or maybe the right of center websites he frequents have done a poor job of educating him of the problem.  I take him at his word when he says that cuck and Pepe the frog are new to him.

I've heard the "cuck"  thing,   but only within the last nine months or so,   but I have never heard of this "Pepe"  thing until I saw it on this website.   

As for the GOP being infected,   I have,  since about 2012,   become convinced it is infected by "Beltwayitis"  and it probably needs to be put down to prevent further spread.   


But the thing I want to take away from this is at least I am "Bright!"    :)   

[DiogenesLamp]

You know what I am heartened by?
12 hours have gone by and this thread has been bumped to the top many times, yet almost all of the Pro-Trump posters have declined to comment on this thread.  That says something to me.  That says that the charge of racism is still feared by almost all of them.  That says they are embarrassed at some of their allies.  That says they are reluctant to come to the aid of of posters who spew racist propaganda.

Yes I'm talking to you @TomSea and @Longmire .  You will still need to hide in the shadows.

It could be that,  but alternatively it could be that they think this is a stupid discussion. 

It could also be that whatever they think about it,  discussing the topic is of no value to their goal.   In fact discussing it is likely detrimental to their goal.   


Again,  as LBJ said about spreading the rumor that his opponent was a "Pig F***er",   (Yes,  LBJ really said that)  he didn't care that it wasn't true,   he just wanted to make his opponent deny it.   


What is the upside for them to keep a discussion about this going?   


If they reject the premise,  why  should they give it oxygen by debating it? 

[DiogenesLamp]

Neither had I, and unless this was some kind of well-known symbol that the average person would associate with White Nationalism (and it isn't), this is a really bogus attack.  I also noted that there is a black guy in that lineup on the left, so I can very easily see why "White Nationalism" wouldn't spring to mind.  I don't think candidates have an obligation to troll racist websites so that they are up to date on the latest memes.

And now it looks like someone is drawing inferences from the "88 generals" thing.  Again, I think 95% of the population wouldn't have made that association in a million years, and I certainly don't blame Trump for it.

Honestly, in terms of "racism", Trump has made some statements that offended some Mexicans (the "rapist" comment).  But I really haven't seen him say or do anything that suggests racism towards African-Americans, nor have I heard him say anything negative about Jews.  If I missed it, then I hope someone enlightens me.  And I don't accept neutral statements to which someone else has attached an unstated meaning as evidence of racism/bigotry. 

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to levy at Trump, including his recent proposal for paid maternity leave.  No need to hunt down obscure references and try to imply that Trump had some secret racist motive.

Yeah,  Trump has a real problem with Jews,  as outlined in this video. 

[ConstitutionRose]

You guys tell me of this thing of which I had never heard until it is mentioned by you guys ,   it seemed ridiculous to me,  (maybe it's just going over my head)  and someone posts a link that demonstrates this ugly looking cartoon frog has been around since 2004  in various guises.    The linked site also shows a "google trend"  map for the ugly thing,   on which   the far dominant usages are  childish and stupid.   


No noticeable usages as a symbol of racism made the chart.    I'm thinking,  "Just how wide spread could this be? "     

I've heard the "cuck"  thing,   but only within the last nine months or so,   but I have never heard of this "Pepe"  thing until I saw it on this website.   

What takes some getting used to is how quickly words, phrases, a meme can take on a totally new meaning at the nonosecond speeds of social media.  That's why corporations, political campaigns and others hire experts in new media who track this stuff.  There is software to help.  A presidential campaign needs to be aware and cautious of trendy memes.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

What takes some getting used to is how quickly words, phrases, a meme can take on a totally new meaning at the nonosecond speeds of social media.  That's why corporations, political campaigns and others hire experts in new media who track this stuff.  There is software to help.  A presidential campaign needs to be aware and cautious of trendy memes.

One does not simply try to wing it in regards to internet memes.

[Longmire]

12 hours have gone by and this thread has been bumped to the top many times, yet almost all of the Pro-Trump posters have declined to comment on this thread.  That says something to me.  That says that the charge of racism is still feared by almost all of them.  That says they are embarrassed at some of their allies.  That says they are reluctant to come to the aid of of posters who spew racist propaganda.