Author Topic: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)  (Read 4681 times)

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Offline sinkspur

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Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« on: September 09, 2016, 01:24:40 pm »
Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism

 by JONAH GOLDBERG   

September 9, 2016 12:00 AM

 Trump’s comments on Putin and Obama are morally obtuse – in a way conservatives used to recognize. There was a time when one of the worst sins you could commit on the American Right was to buy into “false moral equivalence.”

 During the Cold War, this usually meant saying that we were no better than the Soviet Union. For example, Democratic Senator William J. Fulbright — Bill Clinton’s mentor — said of the Soviet Union in 1971, “Were it not for the fact that they are Communists — and therefore ‘bad’ people — while we are Americans — and therefore ‘good’ people — our policies would be nearly indistinguishable.”

 My old boss William F. Buckley famously had the best retort to this kind of myopic asininity. “To say that the CIA and the KGB engage in similar practices is the equivalent of saying that the man who pushes an old lady into the path of a hurtling bus is not to be distinguished from the man who pushes an old lady out of the path of a hurtling bus: on the grounds that, after all, in both cases someone is pushing old ladies around.”

After the Cold War, the false-moral-equivalence arguments didn’t stop; they simply mutated to fit the times. The isolated abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq were expanded into an indictment of America itself. “Shamefully,” Senator Ted Kennedy declared in 2005, “we now learn that Saddam’s torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management.” Senator Dick Durbin claimed American policies were indistinguishable from those of the Nazis, the Soviets, and Pol Pot. Amnesty International dubbed the prison at Guantanamo Bay “the Gulag of our time.”

The problem with this sort of rhetoric should be obvious; however bad Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay may be in your eyes, logic and facts can’t make them the moral equivalents of genocidal mass slaughter (in Saddam’s Iraq, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, or the Soviet Union). Nor is locking up terrorists and enemy combatants anything like imprisonment — or summary execution — of dissidents, intellectuals, and other civilians.

Last year, President Barack Obama went for a personal best in the worst moral equivalence Olympics. At a National Prayer Breakfast, he argued that those who condemn the tactics of the Islamic State — the beheadings, the slavery, the mass rapes, burying people alive, and so forth — must understand that Christians did some very bad things ten centuries ago during the Crusades. So let’s not “get on our high horse” about all that.

Conservatives, including yours truly, ran to their respective rhetorical garages to get as many brickbats, crowbars, and sledgehammers as necessary to demolish that specious nonsense.  It’s interesting to see how conservatives have been responding to the Republican nominee’s own adventures in moral equivalence.

Last December in an interview with MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough, Donald Trump was asked about his sometimes lavish praise of Vladimir Putin.

Scarborough noted that Putin “kills journalists, political opponents, and invades countries. Obviously that would be a concern, would it not?”

“He’s running his country, and at least he’s a leader,” Trump replied. “Unlike what we have in this country.”

 Scarborough persisted: “But again: He kills journalists that don’t agree with him.”

Trump’s answer: “I think our country does plenty of killing, also, Joe, so, you know.”

More than nine months later — a suitable period to rethink one’s absurd and ridiculous position, one might think — Trump was asked again about his so-called bromance with the Russian autocrat. In a “Commander-in-Chief forum,” NBC’s Matt Lauer confronted Trump with some of his past quotes about Putin, including Trump’s claim that, “in terms of leadership, he’s getting an A, our president is not doing so well.”

When Lauer ran through just a few of Putin’s offenses, including his alleged involvement in the hacking of the Democratic party’s computers, Trump responded: “Well, nobody knows that for a fact. But do you want me to start naming some of the things that President Obama does at the same time?”

 I take a backseat to no one as a critic of Barack Obama, but this is repugnant. Barack Obama has done some terrible, foolish, and deplorable things as president. But all of his transgressions are measured against the standards of our constitutional system and our political culture. For instance, in 2009, the Obama Justice Department outrageously monitored the phone calls and e-mails of my Fox News colleague James Rosen. In order to get the warrants, they hilariously named Rosen a “criminal co-conspirator” of one of his sources. That’s really bad. But it is not the moral equivalent of having Rosen gunned down in the street.

That Donald Trump cannot see such distinctions is no longer shocking. That many of his conservative supporters can’t either grows less shocking by the day. — Jon

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439853/donald-trump-putin-obama-comments-moral-equivalence-game-conservatives-once-opposed?target=author&tid=897
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2016, 01:26:03 pm »

 
Hugh Hewitt
‏@hughhewitt Hugh Hewitt Retweeted Ron Fournier
Putin's an evil man. POTUS a good but incompetent man. Putin has served his country's national interest better.


Yeah.  Shooting journalists, invading a sovereign country.  I once respected Hewitt.  No longer.  Talk about losing one's moral compass.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2016, 01:26:51 pm »
What other wars can we do for you Jonah? Sorry, GW Bush isn't in office now. Neo-Cons like you helped ruin the Republican Party and ramp up persecution of Christians in the Middle East.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2016, 01:28:10 pm »
David Harsanyi ‏@davidharsanyi  47m47 minutes ago
David Harsanyi Retweeted Hugh Hewitt
this illustrates why Trump is so dangerous 4 GOP.  Decent partisans are forced to rationalize his immoral positions
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2016, 01:29:56 pm »
What other wars can we do for you Jonah? Sorry, GW Bush isn't in office now. Neo-Cons like you helped ruin the Republican Party and ramp up persecution of Christians in the Middle East.

So you're a Vlad supporter too, huh?  Figures.  You Trumpkins twist yourselves into moral knots defending your cretin.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2016, 01:40:42 pm »
So you're a Vlad supporter too, huh?  Figures.  You Trumpkins twist yourselves into moral knots defending your cretin.

No, I don't buy into what Neo-Cons like Jonah Goldberg say. You can be a warmonger; obviously, you don't understand Trump, he's in the mode of JFK, a visionary and peacemaker.


Offline XenaLee

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2016, 01:46:07 pm »
It just further goes to prove....that Donald Trump will say anything to reach his goal and 'seal the deal'....even if it is patently unethical, false and just plain wrong.   And on the chance that he actually believes some of the outrageous things he says, that goes to prove that, as the CIC, he would also DO anything to get his way.  Not the qualities one wants (ever) in a Commander In Chief.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 01:47:17 pm »
No, I don't buy into what Neo-Cons like Jonah Goldberg say. You can be a warmonger; obviously, you don't understand Trump, he's in the mode of JFK, a visionary and peacemaker.



What happened to "we're gonna bomb the shit out of them?"

You're being conned and you don't realize it.  Of course, that's what great con artists do:  the con never knows he's being conned.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 01:50:56 pm »
Quote
Trump’s comments on Putin and Obama are morally obtuse

So is making a comparison between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton...get a clue, Jonah.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 01:52:50 pm by aligncare »

Offline endicom

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2016, 01:55:48 pm »
The words of a man imagining the moral compass to point always his way. Or the way of his words.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2016, 01:56:20 pm »
Clinton Foundation; Clintons provided uranium to Russia.

We have had 6 good months I'd say where Trump says something, then, the mainstream press and outlets like Red State, National Review analyze it and try to say Trump said this. It's called spin.

Offline ConstitutionRose

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2016, 01:57:07 pm »
David Harsanyi ‏@davidharsanyi  47m47 minutes ago
David Harsanyi Retweeted Hugh Hewitt
this illustrates why Trump is so dangerous 4 GOP.  Decent partisans are forced to rationalize his immoral positions

The good news is that we do NOT have to rationalize his immorali positions.  We may simply call them what they are.  Immoral positions.  We should not rationalize an immoral position becuse the politician who holds that position is a member of our favored party.  Imagine what a difference voters would make if they held all politicians responsible for their positions rather than rationalized something because of a party preference.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2016, 02:00:32 pm »
In order to get the warrants, they hilariously named Rosen a “criminal co-conspirator” of one of his sources. That’s really bad. But it is not the moral equivalent of having Rosen gunned down in the street.

Well, no, it's not the same .... yet.  But it does suggest that things are moving, even if slowly, perhaps, in the same direction. 

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2016, 02:00:50 pm »
My moral compass still works.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2016, 02:02:27 pm »
The words of a man imagining the moral compass to point always his way. Or the way of his words.

Some of us still can tell the truth from a lie.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2016, 02:03:01 pm »
No, I don't buy into what Neo-Cons like Jonah Goldberg say. You can be a warmonger; obviously, you don't understand Trump, he's in the mode of JFK, a visionary and peacemaker.

Wow.  Mmm mmm mmm.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2016, 02:05:52 pm »
The words of a man imagining the moral compass to point always his way. Or the way of his words.

Your words are the words of a moral relativist who believes a moral compass is whatever one thinks it is.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 02:07:15 pm by sinkspur »
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 02:11:49 pm »
Your words are the words of a moral relativist who believes a moral compass is whatever one thinks it is.

Nah.  They're the words of a guy who's apparently trying to explain away the moral failings of a certain candidate.

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 02:19:00 pm »
No, I don't buy into what Neo-Cons like Jonah Goldberg say. You can be a warmonger; obviously, you don't understand Trump, he's in the mode of JFK, a visionary and peacemaker.



LMFAO!!!!   Uh...yeah.   Cause....you know.....that's what role models, visionaries and peacemakers do....

they tell their supporters to go "knock the crap outta them" damned, dirty apes protestors!   

Freakin hilarious.


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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2016, 02:21:46 pm »
What happened to "we're gonna bomb the shit out of them?"

You're being conned and you don't realize it.  Of course, that's what great con artists do:  the con never knows he's being conned.

And let's not forget that Trump wants to kill the terrorists families, as well.  You know....kids, wives, grandparents, etc.

He ain't no JFK, that's for damned sure.
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Offline Longmire

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2016, 02:21:48 pm »
@TomSea

One need look no further than the Middle East for definitive examples of how Putin excels and Obama fails at leadership.

Where Obama seeks destabilization, Putin seeks stabilization

Where Obama favors Islamist control, Putin seeks secular government control.

Where Obama turns his back on former allies, Putin doubles down on his support for them.

Iraq and Libya are FUBAR today as a direct result of Obama's failed leadership.

Egypt narrowly missed suffering the same fate and the jury is still out on Syria and Yemen.

Putin is a grand master and after eight years Obama is an abject failure.

Game, set, and match.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 02:22:36 pm by Longmire »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2016, 02:23:40 pm »
No, I don't buy into what Neo-Cons like Jonah Goldberg say. You can be a warmonger; obviously, you don't understand Trump, he's in the mode of JFK, a visionary and peacemaker.

In defending the indefensible, sir, you have lost your soul.   
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2016, 02:27:07 pm »
@TomSea One need look no further than the Middle East for definitive examples of how Putin excels and Obama fails at leadership.

@Longmire  The issue at hand is morality.  If you think Putin is a moral leader, then you're probably a Trump supporter.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2016, 02:28:56 pm »
@TomSea

One need look no further than the Middle East for definitive examples of how Putin excels and Obama fails at leadership.

Where Obama seeks destabilization, Putin seeks stabilization

Where Obama favors Islamist control, Putin seeks secular government control.

Where Obama turns his back on former allies, Putin doubles down on his support for them.

Iraq and Libya are FUBAR today as a direct result of Obama's failed leadership.

Egypt narrowly missed suffering the same fate and the jury is still out on Syria and Yemen.

Putin is a grand master and after eight years Obama is an abject failure.

Game, set, and match.

Want some mustard to put on your morally-pretzel-twisted butt?
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Smashes the Moral Compass of Conservatism (Jonah Goldberg)
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2016, 02:31:46 pm »
Where Obama seeks destabilization, Putin seeks stabilization

Well... let's not be too sanguine about Putin's motives. 

He needs stability in those places because it allows him to extend Russia's military reach through things like basing agreements and hegemony.  This is old-school power projection -- something that the left seems to have totally forgotten about.

Obama, on the other hand ... I doubt that he seeksdestabilization.  It's just that instability is the natural result of what happens when you put a narcissistic and idealistic leftist in charge of things beyond his grasp or ability.