Author Topic: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack  (Read 6291 times)

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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2016, 01:16:56 pm »
Quote
Arizona busts Mexico gun-running network
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12281727
And there are other stories like this from the border states.
Quote from RedState per what Trump said:
Quote
“No one wins in either country when human smugglers and drug traffickers prey on innocent people, when cartels commit acts of violence, when illegal weapons and cash flow from the United States into Mexico,” Trump said.
http://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2016/09/01/trump-agrees-mexican-president-u.s.-gun-laws-slack/
This attack comes out as weak against the Trump, the article from the Guardian can not readily be found.

Who wouldn't want to stop gun-running to Mexico? Our laws already provide for it being prosecuted.

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2016, 01:19:54 pm »
@TomSea

You're using the same language the left uses to push for further restrictions on the private ownership of guns

The guns aren't the real problem.  The real problem in Mexico is the criminal element/drug cartels that profit from crime and illegal drugs.  Nieto himself stated the best reason for the US to control our border....eliminating all that 'cash and weapons' coming into Mexico.  And yet he is somehow not saying he is for that.    Control the border and the cash stops flowing too.

 
Quote
   At a press conference with Donald Trump on Wednesday in Mexico City, President Enrique Peña Nieto said: “Every year, thousands of weapons and millions of US dollars in cash enter illegally into Mexico from the north, strengthening the cartels and other criminal organizations that create violence in Mexico.”
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2016, 01:21:24 pm »
Quote
The ousted police chief of a tiny New Mexico border town pleaded guilty on Thursday to conspiracy to run guns to a brutal Mexico drug cartel.

Former Columbus Police Chief Angelo Vega pleaded guilty in federal court in Las Cruces to conspiracy and new charges filed on Thursday of aiding in the smuggling of firearms and extortion under color of law.

Vega, who appeared in court in shackles and a red jumpsuit, faces up to 35 years in federal prison and $750,000 in fines at sentencing, which has yet to be scheduled.

He was arrested in March along with former Columbus village trustee Blas "Woody" Gutierrez, former mayor Eddie Espinoza and 10 others, charged in an 84-count gun-running indictment. Since then, a couple from the nearby town of Deming has also been charged with participating in the conspiracy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-newmexico-gunrunning-idUSTRE77O7XG20110825


Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2016, 01:24:13 pm »


XenaLee has it exactly right. If it weren't for Mexico's corrupt government enabling murderous drug cartels gun-running from the US would't be a problem.

Claiming that the gun problem exists without addressing its root cause only gives ammunition to the antigun mob and further puts our constitutional rights to self defense at risk.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 01:27:08 pm by skeeter »

Offline massadvj

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2016, 01:31:11 pm »
Give me a break.  Agreeing that gun dealers and money launderers should not prey on innocent people in Mexico is backing away from the 2nd amendment?  Where does the 2nd amendment say that Mexicans have the right to bear arms?  Or that we have an obligation to arm them?  OK, I could make the case that self-defense is an inalienable right, but the constitution was not meant for all people in the world, only American citizens.  So to suggest that this somehow shows Trump's weakness on the 2nd amendment is ludicrous and Trump derangement.

If people are trying to influence me to not vote for Trump, this is having the opposite effect.  People are jumping on his every whisper.  I also wonder why conservatives would be threatened by what appeared to be a big Trump victory in Mexico.  He had gravitas, outfoxed Nieto, and looked presidential.  Why would any conservative be threatened by that?

I am no Trump supporter, but I call them as I see them. 

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2016, 01:32:41 pm »
XenaLee has it exactly right. If it weren't for Mexico's corrupt government enabling murderous drug cartels gun running form the north would't be a problem.

It's the 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' riddle.  Did the drug cartels create the problem of the illegal "gun running" (illegal because of Mexico's strict gun laws?)and illegal cash flowing across the border.  The answer is yes.  And the culture of corruption in Mexico and along the border towns has allowed the drug cartels to exist and flourish.  To blame the US for that is asinine... when, in the next breath, the Mexican government condemns any US attempt or intent to control our southern border and what comes and goes across it.  More thorough inspections of any and all vehicles traveling across both ways would cut down, if not eliminate, that problem.  It would be a twofer, while also cutting down on illegal immigration (smuggling) of people.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 01:37:39 pm by XenaLee »
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2016, 01:37:43 pm »
Give me a break.  Agreeing that gun dealers and money launderers should not prey on innocent people in Mexico is backing away from the 2nd amendment?  Where does the 2nd amendment say that Mexicans have the right to bear arms?  Or that we have an obligation to arm them?  OK, I could make the case that self-defense is an inalienable right, but the constitution was not meant for all people in the world, only American citizens.  So to suggest that this somehow shows Trump's weakness on the 2nd amendment is ludicrous and Trump derangement.

If people are trying to influence me to not vote for Trump, this is having the opposite effect.  People are jumping on his every whisper.  I also wonder why conservatives would be threatened by what appeared to be a big Trump victory in Mexico.  He had gravitas, outfoxed Nieto, and looked presidential.  Why would any conservative be threatened by that?

I am no Trump supporter, but I call them as I see them.

? No one here is talking about 2nd amendment rights for Mexicans. We're talking about a US bureaucracy that will seize any slender reed to curtail the rights of its own citizens. What do you think was the objective of Fast and Furious?


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2016, 01:53:06 pm »
Give me a break.  Agreeing that gun dealers and money launderers should not prey on innocent people in Mexico is backing away from the 2nd amendment?  Where does the 2nd amendment say that Mexicans have the right to bear arms?  Or that we have an obligation to arm them?  OK, I could make the case that self-defense is an inalienable right, but the constitution was not meant for all people in the world, only American citizens.  So to suggest that this somehow shows Trump's weakness on the 2nd amendment is ludicrous and Trump derangement.

If people are trying to influence me to not vote for Trump, this is having the opposite effect.  People are jumping on his every whisper.  I also wonder why conservatives would be threatened by what appeared to be a big Trump victory in Mexico.  He had gravitas, outfoxed Nieto, and looked presidential.  Why would any conservative be threatened by that?

I am no Trump supporter, but I call them as I see them.
This plays right into the meme that American guns are the reason for the slaughter at the border. American guns were cited as part of the Crime problem in Mexico when Clinton was SOS, but the statistics showed that American Obtained firearms were a very small fraction of those used in crime there.
Not so very long after that angle hit the presses and was being recycled, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered with a gun that was traced back to a BATFE/DOJ operation to sell guns to known straw purchasers who would likely sell them in turn across the border, "Operation Fast and Furious". http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/09/vanderboegh-codrea-exclusive-us-govt.html (additional resource links in the sidebar)

There was no way to trace the location of these guns when they left the shop where they were sold (on orders of the BATFE) to the straw purchasers, and those were not traced nor followed even so far as out of the parking lot. 
In other words, the operation was little more than the facilitation of the acquisition of firearms in the US for cartel use, done at the behest and with full knowledge and consent of those acting within the DOJ and BATFE under color of law. The stated purpose was not attainable under the operational model, leading one to believe that the only purpose of the operation was to get enough American obtained guns in the hands of the cartels along the border to make the statistics seem like some legislation was warranted, and to exacerbate the problem there for that purpose, not the purpose of stopping any gun running nor to trace the guns into Mexico.

To start up again with the 'American guns are the problem' meme is to resurrect the 'justification' for an assault weapon ban in the US, as that was what the whole gambit was for.

Trump, in the past, has expressed support for just such a law.

Please note, this is not the only such operation conducted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/09/codrea-exclusive-project-gangwalker.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/atf-gunwalking-scandal-timeline/

https://pjmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-scandal-escalates-grenadewalker/

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2013/10/17/another-doj-weapon-scandal-grenade-walker-explodes-in-mexico/

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/10/14/fast-and-furious-update-id-walk-a-grenade-for-you-yeah-yeah-yeah/
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 02:06:44 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2016, 01:53:51 pm »
Say good-bye to your Second Amendment rights.  And while you're at it, thank the Trumpkins for taking them away from you.

The stats show that one in three Americans owns a gun. Over 60% of the population in Alaska owns a gun. There are now more guns than people in the U.S.  I would venture to say under the current push for gun control not many are going to voluntarily give up their guns. There has been talk of banning ammunition, ammunition stamping, etc.  Making it mandatory to report gun ownership on a tax return and reporting gun ownership to doctors, psychiatrists and insurance companies. The biggest threat of course is putting liberal justices on SCOTUS.  Will they make it illegal to own a gun and order people to give up their guns and begin going door to door to round them up?  That's a lot of guns to confiscate without some kind of backlash from gun owners.  People have jeered at me and I sure I'll hear it again, but that's where I believe the 'deal' with the U.N. comes in.  I still don't see the 'rumor' of UN troops already inside our country to assist with the backlash as far fetched; nor do I see that my feelings that the UN hub being put in Washington isn't for the purpose of placing refugees.

As much as I don't like him on many of the other issues, Johnson IS very pro 2nd amendment...something to consider.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-ownership-by-state-2015-7

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/05/guns-in-the-united-states-one-for-every-man-woman-and-child-and-then-some/

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2016, 02:05:07 pm »
My conceal permit will expire after the election and of course I have concerns so about a month ago, I contacted the Dept. of Agriculture to see if I could apply early to renew my concealment permit.  Even if I went directly to the office itself I cannot renew my permit early without the renewal paperwork from the FEDS. They asked why I wanted to renew early (silly question). I was then informed that there is such a backlog that 'they' are about 2 months behind in issuing renewal paperwork and about 6 months behind in issuing permits.  So...that puts a lot of people including myself, of not having a valid permit once theirs expires and a lot of people not having a valid permit after the election.

I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline Night Hides Not

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2016, 02:11:26 pm »
Is there a principle Trumpsters won't sacrifice if so ordered by the reality show star?

Surely, you meant that as a rhetorical question.

"Art of the Deal" = Situational Ethics

Put me in the camp of BG Anthony McAuliffe: Nuts!
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Offline ABX

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2016, 03:09:53 pm »
How is this issue solved by increasing liberty instead of decreasing it?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2016, 04:58:49 pm »
How is this issue solved by increasing liberty instead of decreasing it?
Well, the first thought that comes to mind would be considered somewhere between "racist" and an act of war... and involves bubbas, beer, and hunting rifles...
nevermind that.

Seriously,
If, by enforcing existing laws which prohibit incursions into the US, and securing the border through physical means to better control the movement of arms from the US into Mexico, the problem is Mexico's from there. That might have the additional benefit of hampering the flow of illegals and drugs from Mexico.

That would remove the onus from the US, and preserve, rather than increase Liberty. In this case, a stalemate is almost a 'win'.

Unless the Mexican Government desired to mount a joint military operation against enemies of the Estados Unidos Mexicanos and the United States of America along our mutual border (the Cartels), I don't see how it would be otherwise.

I am not sure how the US military could be legally used in an operation which would flirt with violating Posse Comitatus (18 U.S. Code § 1385), https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385 without a declaration of war against the drug cartels, which, imho, is where the drug war should have been fought all along.
They are worse than the Barbary Pirates, yet we fight on our streets instead of the source.

They are notorious for barbarity, and will not go quietly, up to and including acts of terrorism.

The other side of that is the potential for confiscation of assets which could be used to build that barrier or offset the cost of operations. That, too, gets into muddy water, legally with the potential to develop agency robber barons who would look for assets to seize, more than illegal activity.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 05:00:51 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline CSM

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2016, 05:14:51 pm »
Never-Trumpers now defend the slaughter of Mexican people with guns purchased in the USA?

What a conscience these people have.

Oh, gun-running and gun-smuggling doesn't go on from North to South?

Difficult to fathom the latest hateful article being pushed.

@TomSea    You post some very sickening statements. 

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2016, 05:18:39 pm »
He was never really on our side of the Two Amendment
@geronl

Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2016, 05:23:18 pm »
 @libertybele
Quote
As much as I don't like him on many of the other issues, Johnson IS very pro 2nd amendment...something to consider.

So is Castle, and I like the Constitution Party platform better, for what that's worth. YMMV..
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2016, 05:31:19 pm »
That is probably the most ridiculous gob of fecal material you have thrown at the glass yet. Sure it does. Ask Eric holder and Hillary Clinton. Google "Gunwalker" and for extra credit Google "Grenadewalker", and if you want to move to the front seat of the short bus, Google "Gangwalker". It seems our government has been running guns all over.

But if I was a Cartel guy with billions to work with, I'd spend the scratch to have a few containers of AKs and some heavier weapons, complete with plenty of ammo, some mines, and maybe even some shoulder launched anti-air and antitank stuff. Why waltz when you can rock and roll? Why pay $600 for a semi-auto AK when you can buy the real deal select fire weapon for less on the world arms market?

Sokay to toady up to Barrack Obammy and bring a couple thousand semi-autos down with part of the money they gave you so they can get their statistics right at the border, that's just a favor among criminals, but for real weapons go to the guys who equip armies.You must live in a gun-free household.
I wasn't aware one could purchase hand grenades, M-4s with M203 grenade launchers and rocket launchers in US gun stores...I need to find a better class of store to shop at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico

Take special note of the number of Mexican military defections and the arms smuggling from Guatemala in the wiki link...and also note the discrepancy in the 90% stat being thrown around and how that relates to tracing confiscated/recovered firearms/weapons.
Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2016, 05:31:31 pm »
Just another example of how the orange New York liberal's policies and positions are indiscernible from that of his fellow liberal, Hillary Clinton.

Here, she too blames America for the violence in Mexico.

It's not only guns, it's night-vision goggles, it's body armor," Clinton said enroute to Mexico City in her third foreign trip as Secretary of State.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2016, 05:55:13 pm »
Never-Trumpers now defend the slaughter of Mexican people with guns purchased in the USA?

What a conscience these people have.

Oh, gun-running and gun-smuggling doesn't go on from North to South?

Difficult to fathom the latest hateful article being pushed.
Trumpist now pushing for throwing out God given rights?
Trust the government to fix the problem. Does fast and furious ring any bells.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2016, 05:55:27 pm »
I wasn't aware one could purchase hand grenades, M-4s with M203 grenade launchers and rocket launchers in US gun stores...I need to find a better class of store to shop at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico

Take special note of the number of Mexican military defections and the arms smuggling from Guatemala in the wiki link...and also note the discrepancy in the 90% stat being thrown around and how that relates to tracing confiscated/recovered firearms/weapons.
You can't buy them at any place I shop, either. http://xdind.com/yes-you-can-legally-own-a-grenade-launcher/
My guess is that you would have to go through background checks, and then go to the manufacturers. I am not in that market, so I can't steer you. oh-and pay the transfer fees.

However the Cartels are coming up with M4 with M203 launchers.

From the article you cite, the information appears to be presented in a way that would indicate the problem is dire, yet
Quote
Nevertheless, on February 2008, William Hoover, Assistant Director for Field Operations of ATF, testified before Congress that over 90% of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico originated from various sources within the United States.[22] However, following a review by the U.S. Office of the Inspector General (OIG) on September 2010, the ATF admitted that “the 90% figure cited to Congress could be misleading because it applied only to the small portion of Mexican crime guns that are traced.”[19] During this 2010 review by the OIG, the ATF could not provide updated information on the percentage of traced Mexican crime guns that were sourced to (that is, found to be manufactured in or imported through) the United States.[19] The November 2010 OIG analysis of ATF data suggest a low percentage of successful weapons traces, ranging from 27% to 44%.[23] In February 2011, Stratfor Global Intelligence calculated the number to be situated between 12% and 48%, and reported almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.[24]
If 90% of those arms were not traced, 90% can't be coming from the US. In addition, some 150,000 Mexican soldiers allegedly desert annually, (from the article), surely some of their weapons go with them, and if they were issued M-16 variants, they were likely made in the US. That does not mean clandestine sales to cartel members, but recovered military and possibly surplus arms that were manufactured here, legally acquired in Mexico, and then transferred into the clandestine trade in Mexico. Origin (country of manufacture) may not be an indicator of how they were obtained there.


« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 05:55:57 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2016, 06:01:23 pm »
Would love to hear our resident 2nd Amendment Trump supporter @Mechanicos explain this one. To paraphrase: Lucy you got some Trumpsplaining to do.

I guess his whereabouts are unknown.
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Offline ABX

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2016, 06:03:47 pm »
Enough time and enough money you can technically, legally, buy almost anything. Most of what you are describing are class 3 weapons and munitions. Usually they require an ATF permit/stamp and a substantial fee. For example, you can purchase rocket launchers all day, every day, and they aren't very expensive either, because basically they are a pipe and trigger.

However, to buy munitions for that, you have to get a Class 3 permit and pay a substantial fee. (in the thousands). Same with grenades. Not too many are willing to fork over 5K and have the ATF give you a prostate exam before you get it, but it can be done.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 06:05:41 pm by AbaraXas »

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2016, 06:11:58 pm »
Trumpist now pushing for throwing out God given rights?

And doing so with the same language you will hear from liberals at HuffPo, Daily Kos and even Hillary Clinton herself.

There is no low to which they won't stoop to defend their orange hero.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2016, 06:21:53 pm »

And doing so with the same language you will hear from liberals at HuffPo, Daily Kos and even Hillary Clinton herself.

There is no low to which they won't stoop to defend their orange hero.
You never know what the Trumpist Monks, cloistered away in their Mom's basement, are going to brew up next. Sadly no vows of silence are involved in being a Trumpist Monk.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Trump Agrees With Mexican President: U.S. Gun Laws Are Too Slack
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2016, 06:47:05 pm »
You never know what the Trumpist Monks, cloistered away in their Mom's basement, are going to brew up next. Sadly no vows of silence are involved in being a Trumpist Monk.

A "Trump Monk".