Author Topic: The Never-Trump bozos  (Read 15754 times)

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Offline musiclady

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #125 on: August 25, 2016, 12:15:01 am »
I just remembered who made the wisecrack about Goldwater really wanting to break into film
by becoming president of 19th Century Fox---it was Hubert Humphrey. ;)

FWIW, I still have my "If I were 21 I'd vote for BARRY" button.   ^-^
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #126 on: August 25, 2016, 12:20:07 am »
Oh, and I may still have my paperback copy of A Choice, not an Echo by Phyllis Schlafly that I read when I was 14.

(Too bad her old age and bad judgment had her endorsing Trump.  I wonder if she's alert enough to know that was a bad mistake)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 12:20:27 am by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #127 on: August 25, 2016, 12:25:11 am »
FWIW, I still have my "If I were 21 I'd vote for BARRY" button.   ^-^

If my state had the write-in option, I might write in Goldwater's name---along the line of Artemus Ward's
maxim that if we can't have a live man who amounts to anything, by all means let us have a first class
corpse. (And if the dead in Chicago can vote, period, why can't the living vote for the dead? ;) )


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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #128 on: August 25, 2016, 01:05:11 am »
I'm not sure if you were addressing that remark to me, but if you were, then you imply that Constitutional, circumscribed government in the United States is dead, and that my only hope is to align myself behind some strongman who will do statism better than the other party's strongman. I don't concur with that assessment, and will struggle to do the right thing, no matter what the consequences. If this is the Alamo, I'm playing Colonel Travis.

If more conservatives had principles, we wouldn't be in these straits.
Having principles is like having a ladder. It's nice to have. But not of much use if you won't stand on it.
What really seems to upset certain people is that we will not only stand on our principles, we remain unmoved from them.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #129 on: August 25, 2016, 01:35:50 am »
Quote
Two years after Barry Goldwater's defeat, a sad joke made the rounds, and with apologies to Bob Newhart it went something
like this: They told me that if I voted for Goldwater, we'd have a war in Southeast Asia, civil and racial unrest, and a ruined economy. I
went ahead and voted for him anyway, and it turned out they were absolutely right.

I have very often wondered what kind of world we would be living in now had Barry Goldwater been elected president in 1964.  How would we have survived without LBJ's "Great Society"?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #130 on: August 25, 2016, 01:36:36 am »
If my state had the write-in option, I might write in Goldwater's name---along the line of Artemus Ward's
maxim that if we can't have a live man who amounts to anything, by all means let us have a first class
corpse. (And if the dead in Chicago can vote, period, why can't the living vote for the dead? ;) )

You know, that is something I've never considered, but you make a good point.

It's sort of a turnabout is fair play thing......  dead Dems vote for living candidates, and we, the living conservatives vote for dead guys.

I like it!!  :beer:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #131 on: August 25, 2016, 01:38:18 am »
I have very often wondered what kind of world we would be living in now had Barry Goldwater been elected president in 1964.  How would we have survived without LBJ's "Great Society"?

I know one thing's for sure..... blacks lives would be much better now.  Families would still be in tact as they used to be, and poverty would be diminished because the welfare state wouldn't have happened.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Bigun

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #132 on: August 25, 2016, 01:49:18 am »
I know one thing's for sure..... blacks lives would be much better now.  Families would still be in tact as they used to be, and poverty would be diminished because the welfare state wouldn't have happened.

And the Vietnam war would have been over before I got the chance to participate!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #133 on: August 25, 2016, 01:57:41 am »
I have very often wondered what kind of world we would be living in now had Barry Goldwater been elected president in 1964.  How would we have survived without LBJ's "Great Society"?

The 60s would no doubt have been just as ugly in many ways, but perhaps without the Vietnam War to really stir things up.  (Hard to say, though ... it being the Cold War, and the policy of containment in full force, might Goldwater have done something similar?)

Oceander

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #134 on: August 25, 2016, 01:57:52 am »
The NeverTrumpanzies are Bozos. They are a bunch of crying sniveling children throwing a tantrum.

I have yet to hear a concise one sentence "goal statement" from the NeverTrumptards because they don't have one. They don't know what they want, except to make sure that Trump is not elected. And obviously, anyone with more than a couple of brain cells can comprehend that this means electing Hillary, which is something they adamantly deny to attempt to try avoid responsibility for what they are doing.

As far as I can tell they seem to have a platform that consists of getting Hillary elected to punish Trump supporters because they did not nominate the 'right' candidate according to them.

If you ask a NeverTrumpster, "What do you want? What is your goal?" The only answer they can give you is, 'We want revenge against the people who did not support our guy!', 'We want to show them WE WERE RIGHT!'

The NeverTrumpansie's argument is like an old vaudeville joke.
NT : I would never vote for Trump because Trump is unelectable!
(Yes but, he is only unelectable because of you; because you won't vote for him.)
NT : See what I mean!
(that doesn't make any sense)

However, if the situation was reversed and Jeb Bush was the nominee, the NeverTrumpsters would be the loudest in yelling at everyone to 'suck it up and take it like a man' because Hillary is worse! But, their blatant hypocrisy is lost on them.

The unwashed rabble are expected to do what they are told. The NeverTrumpsters cannot stand that they did not get their way this time. So now, they want to throw a wrench in the machine and tear the whole thing down. Which, if that's what they want to do, may not be such a bad thing anyway.

Screw it. If they want to wreck the Republican Party for not getting their way, I could live with that. It would certainly clarify things. The mono-Party would be all that there is to "choose" from. Except for Trump that's what we have now, but with Hillary at least it would be out in the open and exposed.

I want somebody who is not a crony-capitalist, big-government NYC liberal.  I want somebody who won't lie out of both sides of his mouth in order to B.S. me into supporting me.  I want somebody who has some scruples.  I want somebody whom I trust.  Trump fails on all those points.

I do want somebody who will start trying to undo the damage that Obama and the DNC have done.  Trump is not that person either.  First, he has long supported single-payer health care.  In his less guarded moments - before he needed to sucker you into supporting him - Trump expressed support for Obamacare.  Trump has already come out as supporting a significantly higher minimum wage; perhaps not the $15 the far left is demanding, but certainly much higher than it is now.  And now Trump is - as we predicted - turning his back on his promises about curtailing illegal immigration.

In other words, Trump is a liberal, through and through, and everything he's been saying that has been giving you tingles up and down your legs is all lies. 

I want somebody I can trust; I will not vote for somebody I cannot trust.  I would consider voting for somebody I disagreed with if I could trust that person to not be a total disaster.  Trump is not that person.  He is a liar - I'm sorry, but if you think that his about-face on immigration is anything but proof that he lied earlier about being hard on immigration, then you're a bigger fool than I'd given you credit for - and therefore what he says now about how he's going to follow conservative policies or undo what Obama has done simply cannot be trusted.  Period.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.  Shame on Trump.



Offline musiclady

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #135 on: August 25, 2016, 02:03:55 am »
And the Vietnam war would have been over before I got the chance to participate!

And would have been won because the military would have been in control, and not a half wit President and a moronic Congress.

What a difference that election made.....   **nononono*
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #136 on: August 25, 2016, 02:27:21 am »
I agree in principle ... but principles and the real world don't always play nicely, because we're not really capable of crafting "principles" that can fully address every possible situation. 

So, suppose in some real-world situation we don't completely agree on what constitutes "limited, Constitutional government," what then?

To give a concrete example: suppose you and I don't agree on what the policy of a "limited, Constitutional government" ought to be on immigration.  Are we enemies?
Core principles cover every situation. It is only in the tangle of 'situation ethics' that people get confused.

That people have disagreed on what "Constitutional Government" comprises is evident, even in the cases which have appeared before the Supreme Court, where the justices disagree as well.
The question arises of whether or not an agreement can be forged which does not violate the core principles of those agreeing.

In no wise can the nanny state be construed as 'limited Constitutional Government', but the greatest debates will be found on the ideological interface of how much government is enough vs now much government is too much.
That is where principles, where unalienable rights come in. Will my exercise of my rights prevent you from exercising your rights? Not a question of whether you approve of or like what I do, but one of will it stop you from doing what you do. Will your inconvenience or disagreement override my fundamental right? and vice-versa.

It is the 'finding' of rights not fundamental to, or in direct contravention to the fundamental and unalienable rights of others which has led to much of the conflict, including the notion that Government, a human construct, has any Rights at all. It has powers, granted by those governed, but no Rights.

In the past, those unalienable rights were denied to those in servitude, because they were not considered "human". Despite that, those Rights were eventually acknowledged, as was the humanity of those who possessed them.
Now, that same fundamental issue of unalienable Rights has moved to a different arena, where the rights of a fetus will be denied until such time as they, too, are considered "human".  Yet the Court charged with interpreting who had rights failed to acknowledge that even once, they, too could be referred to as a "fetus" and by their own decision could have denied themselves the unalienable and most fundamental Right to Life.
The assumption that Government has the Right to deem these developing humans somehow without rights is a dangerous one, for it leads to the most vulnerable adults among us being in peril of being some how deemed 'less than human' despite their DNA, and being equally vulnerable to being eliminated for being inconvenient, either on an individual basis or en bloc for being opposed to policy or 'consuming resources' which others might feel would be better turned to a different end.

While that may seem far fetched to some, keep in mind the seminal concept of taking from one who has something to give it to someone else who will allegedly put it to better use is already adjudicated in the taking of property under the Kelo decision. Food, medicine, water, housing, may not be far behind. In this case, too, the unalienable Right to life, and even property, would be denied.

The assumption by those who stand to benefit (directly or indirectly) from Government largess, that somehow through a transitive property of handouts, they are entitled to confer on Government the right to infringe on the rights of others is a key stumbling block to a more universal agreement on how much Government is too much.

Which brings us back to the contest at hand. The primary purpose of government is to secure the unalienable Rights of the individual to Life, Liberty, and property (elsewhere referred to as the pursuit of happiness). When the government is no longer functioning to those ends, it is time to alter it or replace it, but in the two most likely standard bearers of that replacement, I see no alteration in the vector the government is on which can be reasonably predicted in the expressed principles of the two leading candidates for president, either in direction or magnitude.

For that reason, as articulated numerous times on this forum, I will put my support behind a person, and even more a Party, which conveys credible support for that Constitutional Government the founders envisioned and laid out in those foundational documents. If enough others join me, we will effect that change.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline HootOwl

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #137 on: August 25, 2016, 02:37:44 am »
Our enemies grow weirder.

But outlining the horror of a Hillary presidency is a good weapon and they ought to stick to it.  There is no way that any of them can convince anyone that Donald Trump is not an insane, mean, narcissistic lunatic with no saving graces whatever.

We would have no problem impeaching Trump and removing him from office,  if he gets too bad. We could never do that to Hillary.  I'd rather have Pence than Hillary.   :thud:

Offline musiclady

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #138 on: August 25, 2016, 02:50:01 am »
We would have no problem impeaching Trump and removing him from office,  if he gets too bad. We could never do that to Hillary.  I'd rather have Pence than Hillary.   :thud:

So you are advocating voting for Trump because he's easier to impeach?

And this makes sense to you????
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #139 on: August 25, 2016, 02:51:02 am »
So you are advocating voting for Trump because he's easier to impeach?

And this makes sense to you????

The GOP isn't going to impeach Trump.

Offline XenaLee

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #140 on: August 25, 2016, 02:56:49 am »
So you are advocating voting for Trump because he's easier to impeach?

And this makes sense to you????

Pretzel logic is the only thing the Trump camp has at this point.  In their 'minds'....it is apparently considered to be better than no logic at all.   They'd be wrong about that too.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline HootOwl

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #141 on: August 25, 2016, 03:08:04 am »
So you are advocating voting for Trump because he's easier to impeach?

And this makes sense to you????

First, I never wanted Trump during the primaries.   If Hillary is our President what alternative do we have.  We will Never get rid of her or her policies.  We may have voted for the last time.  the DEMs are trying everything they can to keep in power forever!  Yes, I think I would rater impeach Trump than deal with Hillary. :beer:

Offline HootOwl

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #142 on: August 25, 2016, 03:14:16 am »
Good. This is much more civil than I have come to expect. Great.

We are all basically on the same side and want the same goals. It is with how to get there that we differ.

When I say that I do not understand NeverTrump fanatics, that is what I mean. They are not bad people or anything like that. I simply cannot understand anyone willfully allowing an opportunity to vote against Hillary to slip by.

I would have nominated her myself just for the purpose of giving me a chance to vote her down. I'm not crazy about Trump, but we are all-in and have no choice but to play the hand we are given.

Folding is not an option for me. Because if I fold, the game is over.

I previously wrote a post, but it was deleted for some reason.  I am thrilled to vote against Hillary.  Think  I'll have a beer while I still can :beer:   If she wins, we won't have a country.

Oceander

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #143 on: August 25, 2016, 03:33:47 am »

Offline Bigun

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #144 on: August 25, 2016, 03:58:57 am »
Core principles cover every situation. It is only in the tangle of 'situation ethics' that people get confused.

That people have disagreed on what "Constitutional Government" comprises is evident, even in the cases which have appeared before the Supreme Court, where the justices disagree as well.
The question arises of whether or not an agreement can be forged which does not violate the core principles of those agreeing.

In no wise can the nanny state be construed as 'limited Constitutional Government', but the greatest debates will be found on the ideological interface of how much government is enough vs now much government is too much.
That is where principles, where unalienable rights come in. Will my exercise of my rights prevent you from exercising your rights? Not a question of whether you approve of or like what I do, but one of will it stop you from doing what you do. Will your inconvenience or disagreement override my fundamental right? and vice-versa.

It is the 'finding' of rights not fundamental to, or in direct contravention to the fundamental and unalienable rights of others which has led to much of the conflict, including the notion that Government, a human construct, has any Rights at all. It has powers, granted by those governed, but no Rights.

In the past, those unalienable rights were denied to those in servitude, because they were not considered "human". Despite that, those Rights were eventually acknowledged, as was the humanity of those who possessed them.
Now, that same fundamental issue of unalienable Rights has moved to a different arena, where the rights of a fetus will be denied until such time as they, too, are considered "human".  Yet the Court charged with interpreting who had rights failed to acknowledge that even once, they, too could be referred to as a "fetus" and by their own decision could have denied themselves the unalienable and most fundamental Right to Life.
The assumption that Government has the Right to deem these developing humans somehow without rights is a dangerous one, for it leads to the most vulnerable adults among us being in peril of being some how deemed 'less than human' despite their DNA, and being equally vulnerable to being eliminated for being inconvenient, either on an individual basis or en bloc for being opposed to policy or 'consuming resources' which others might feel would be better turned to a different end.

While that may seem far fetched to some, keep in mind the seminal concept of taking from one who has something to give it to someone else who will allegedly put it to better use is already adjudicated in the taking of property under the Kelo decision. Food, medicine, water, housing, may not be far behind. In this case, too, the unalienable Right to life, and even property, would be denied.

The assumption by those who stand to benefit (directly or indirectly) from Government largess, that somehow through a transitive property of handouts, they are entitled to confer on Government the right to infringe on the rights of others is a key stumbling block to a more universal agreement on how much Government is too much.

Which brings us back to the contest at hand. The primary purpose of government is to secure the unalienable Rights of the individual to Life, Liberty, and property (elsewhere referred to as the pursuit of happiness). When the government is no longer functioning to those ends, it is time to alter it or replace it, but in the two most likely standard bearers of that replacement, I see no alteration in the vector the government is on which can be reasonably predicted in the expressed principles of the two leading candidates for president, either in direction or magnitude.

For that reason, as articulated numerous times on this forum, I will put my support behind a person, and even more a Party, which conveys credible support for that Constitutional Government the founders envisioned and laid out in those foundational documents. If enough others join me, we will effect that change.

"And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, and to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering.

Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers observing to be so general in this world, have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man.

And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.


– Thomas Jefferson, letter to Sam Kercheval about reform of the Virginia Constitution, July 12, 1816; "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson," Definitive Edition, Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association (1905) Vol. XV, p. 40

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline unknown

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #145 on: August 25, 2016, 04:33:27 am »
I previously wrote a post, but it was deleted for some reason.  I am thrilled to vote against Hillary.  Think  I'll have a beer while I still can :beer:   If she wins, we won't have a country.

If she wins BLOAT. She won't let you after a while. And what you end up with is what you will end up using.


I won't be here after the election and vote.

If Hillary wins - I will be busy, BLOAT! (It won't be long before she won't let you buy.)

If Trump wins, I won't be here to GLOAT. (I don't want to hang around while everyone looks at every speck in his eye.)

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #146 on: August 25, 2016, 05:31:36 am »
People did cry foul when Trump went ad hominem.  You can't blame them if other people didn't pay attention.

You're right about Cruz's mistake.  His response to the attacks made him look smaller, when a better candidate could have used them to look bigger. 

(This is part of why I'm not a Cruz supporter, btw... a president has to contend with far more difficult problems than infantile Trumpisms, and if Ted looks small there, he's in real trouble later, as president.)

Rubio had the same problem.  Walker was out before Trump took any real shots at him, but I suspect Walker would have come out looking better rather than worse. 

Our real problem is that really good candidates are too sane to enter into the lunacy that defines the Republican primary process.  The single-issue factions make it impossible for serious people to gain any traction.

Fantastic post.  I couldn't agree more.  Cruz was near the bottom of my list out of the 16 or 17 candidates who were running.  I think he is obstinate and a gloryhound who doesn't work well with others.  But I voted for him in the primary in WI because I knew where he stood, and even though I disagreed with his methods he defended the unborn and he defended Israel and he defended the Constitution.

I am saddened that he was not acceptable to Republicans.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2016, 05:43:50 am »

Thank you for the meaty reply.  I can only judge Goldwater by what history has written.  I was not yet born when he ran the most disastrous campaign in the history of the GOP.  I used to fear that Trump's imminent and epic loss would echo that landslide defeat...when I was a Republican.

Offline DB

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2016, 05:56:58 am »
Fantastic post.  I couldn't agree more.  Cruz was near the bottom of my list out of the 16 or 17 candidates who were running.  I think he is obstinate and a gloryhound who doesn't work well with others.  But I voted for him in the primary in WI because I knew where he stood, and even though I disagreed with his methods he defended the unborn and he defended Israel and he defended the Constitution.

I am saddened that he was not acceptable to Republicans.

Put simply, many Republicans wanted a wrecking ball to take out Washington. What they got instead was an arsonist who if elected will take out much of the country imposing whatever whim he has that day.

Offline LilLamb

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Re: The Never-Trump bozos
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2016, 07:27:42 am »
When I tried to point out that Trump couldn't win against Hillary and I tried to campaign for a true conservative, I was told that Trump didn't need the conservative base because he was going to get some amazing crossover vote and win in a landslide.  Now, he can't win without my vote?

The only people that look like clowns to me are the people that foisted this horrible candidate on us and continue to support him when he has evolved to the left on every issue that is important. They are the only ones to blame if Hillary wins. Period.
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat."  Ronald Reagan