Author Topic: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?  (Read 4063 times)

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Offline kevindavis007

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Last week, both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, the major parties’ presidential nominees, released their economic plans in campaign stops in Detroit. They talked about creating jobs, taxes, the economy, and trade. But what neither talked about was perhaps the greatest threat to economic security in the future: automation and computerization.


Take, for example, the number one job held by men today -- nearly 3 million of them are truck drivers. What will happen to them in a decade when Daimler expects its self-driving 18-wheeler now being tested in the Nevada desert to be ready for the road? How about the top job among women, that of administrative assistant? Technology already has wiped away many of those positions in companies large and small.


And it’s not just popular low-skilled jobs that artificial intelligence threatens. A 2013 study from Oxford University predicts that future technology could displace nearly half of American jobs. History has shown such predictions to be wildly exaggerated, of course. In the long race between education and technology, education typically wins.


Read More: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-happens-when-millions-jobs-lost-because-jeff-selingo


Something that neither candidate is talking about.
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Oceander

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 11:03:01 pm »
Economics is not a zero-sum game, and economies are not closed systems - other than communist economies, that is.  If autonomous semis become a reality, it won't happen overnight so you won't suddenly have millions of truck drivers out of work.  The most marginal value-add will go first, and the higher value-add will transition to support services, such as remote control if/when necessary, like drones, and a large number will retire out, and not be replaced.  Of those who are displaced before their time, there is unemployment and retraining available, if only people would take advantage of it.

Did the world crash when the automobile finally became ready for prime time, and all of those carriage drivers lost their jobs?  No, it didn't.

Offline Fantom

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2016, 11:33:57 pm »


Well, we will all have Guberment jobs by then.

We will be telling robots, how fast they can drive, what their RAM can be. Why do you think Skynet did it's stuff.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 01:32:15 am »
Economics is not a zero-sum game, and economies are not closed systems - other than communist economies, that is.  If autonomous semis become a reality, it won't happen overnight so you won't suddenly have millions of truck drivers out of work.  The most marginal value-add will go first, and the higher value-add will transition to support services, such as remote control if/when necessary, like drones, and a large number will retire out, and not be replaced.  Of those who are displaced before their time, there is unemployment and retraining available, if only people would take advantage of it.

Did the world crash when the automobile finally became ready for prime time, and all of those carriage drivers lost their jobs?  No, it didn't.


Exactly..  We will adapt accordingly..
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Offline Machiavelli

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 01:51:17 am »
Butlerian Jihad?

Offline ABX

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2016, 01:54:47 am »
Obviously we should burn the plants down and ban automation.

Ban the power looms, they'll put the skilled textile workers out of a job.

Offline ABX

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 01:56:38 am »
Econ 101

The Luddite fallacy is the simple observation that new technology does not lead to higher overall unemployment in the economy. New technology doesn't destroy jobs – it only changes the composition of jobs in the economy. - Alex Tabarrok
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 01:57:56 am by AbaraXas »

HonestJohn

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2016, 01:58:02 am »
We can mitigate the human cost of this but funding job retraining programs.  Where companies who need skilled labor reach out to those who've lost their jobs and retrain them to the new skillset in return for a guarantee of set amount of time working for the company.

And some organization can be the middleman.

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2016, 01:59:36 am »
Butlerian Jihad?

While I know what you reference... I still have to say this:

The butlers are revolting?!?

 :tongue2:
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 02:00:07 am by HonestJohn »

Offline Dirt for sale

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2016, 02:11:15 am »
Robots aint chit. Saltwater takes em down. Men-tec rigs are a pita, though.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2016, 02:39:11 am »
Q: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?

A: We blame them d@MN im'grents.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2016, 02:42:35 am »

Yes, we need a really big, costly and powerful government, to provide retraining.

Like college, everybody should get free retraining.
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Offline dfwgator

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 02:43:38 am »
We'll all become salesmen.

Offline Chieftain

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2016, 03:17:39 am »
Back in the home of my birth, in Northeastern Ohio, there was a local company that was known as the "Bow Socket."

A bow socket is a metal casting that fits on the side of a horse-drawn buggy, into which the wooden bows that supported a canvas canopy would fit.

What do you suppose the Bow Socket was making in the 1960s??  Sure as hell the automobile had killed the demand for both bow sockets and horse drawn buggies decades earlier...

The owners kept the name, but converted to making brake pads for automobiles.  All those guys making bow sockets had to learn all the new machines, new casting procedures and new materials, but the business not only survived, it thrived and still does today, although I am not sure what they are making in there now.

The new frontier boys and girls is up.  Straight up.  As in High Earth Orbit and on Mars.  That is where the next giant leap for mankind is going to be.  Maybe not for me and you, but our kids' kids for sure...

 :beer:

Offline Suppressed

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2016, 03:43:28 am »
The new frontier boys and girls is up.  Straight up.  As in High Earth Orbit and on Mars.  That is where the next giant leap for mankind is going to be.  Maybe not for me and you, but our kids' kids for sure...

Your soaring rhetoric makes me think of...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sogYgHlNnqo
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HonestJohn

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2016, 05:05:58 am »
Yes, we need a really big, costly and powerful government, to provide retraining.

Like college, everybody should get free retraining.

Funny, I didn't mention the government in my post.

But that's the first place you turned to.

And you seem to be arguing that those with obsolete skills stay unemployed.  Why?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 05:06:52 am by HonestJohn »

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2016, 12:09:09 pm »
Back in the home of my birth, in Northeastern Ohio, there was a local company that was known as the "Bow Socket."

A bow socket is a metal casting that fits on the side of a horse-drawn buggy, into which the wooden bows that supported a canvas canopy would fit.

What do you suppose the Bow Socket was making in the 1960s??  Sure as hell the automobile had killed the demand for both bow sockets and horse drawn buggies decades earlier...

The owners kept the name, but converted to making brake pads for automobiles.  All those guys making bow sockets had to learn all the new machines, new casting procedures and new materials, but the business not only survived, it thrived and still does today, although I am not sure what they are making in there now.

The new frontier boys and girls is up.  Straight up.  As in High Earth Orbit and on Mars.  That is where the next giant leap for mankind is going to be.  Maybe not for me and you, but our kids' kids for sure...

 :beer:


 :amen:
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Offline mirraflake

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2016, 12:20:20 pm »
Back in the home of my birth, in Northeastern Ohio, there was a local company that was known as the "Bow Socket."

A bow socket is a metal casting that fits on the side of a horse-drawn buggy, into which the wooden bows that supported a canvas canopy would fit.

What do you suppose the Bow Socket was making in the 1960s??  Sure as hell the automobile had killed the demand for both bow sockets and horse drawn buggies decades earlier...

The owners kept the name, but converted to making brake pads for automobiles.  All those guys making bow sockets had to learn all the new machines, new casting procedures and new materials, but the business not only survived, it thrived and still does today, although I am not sure what they are making in there now.

The new frontier boys and girls is up.  Straight up.  As in High Earth Orbit and on Mars.  That is where the next giant leap for mankind is going to be.  Maybe not for me and you, but our kids' kids for sure...

 :beer:


What business is employing tens of millions that is replacing manufacturing in this country? As manufacturing replaced agriculture jobs that were lost at the turn of the century and how automobiles replaced the buggy whip jobs?

Name me the job creator.


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Offline Henry Noel

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2016, 01:27:06 pm »
Econ 101

The Luddite fallacy is the simple observation that new technology does not lead to higher overall unemployment in the economy. New technology doesn't destroy jobs – it only changes the composition of jobs in the economy. - Alex Tabarrok

I believe that's true. The problem we face nowadays, in a transitional time, is the numbers of people who are academically marginal and thus unable to fill the jobs that these new circumstances have made available. I would say, however, that being academically marginal is not the same as being stupid, or unintelligent. The real problem won't lie with marginal people who are otherwise intelligent, but the masses of urban basket-cases who are totally unfamiliar with the social values required to take advantage of their intelligence.
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Offline Chieftain

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2016, 02:01:26 pm »

What business is employing tens of millions that is replacing manufacturing in this country? As manufacturing replaced agriculture jobs that were lost at the turn of the century and how automobiles replaced the buggy whip jobs?

Name me the job creator.


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Spacex, for starters.  I find their engineering progress on launch vehicles simply amazing, and their plans for the Raptor booster are simply incredible.  Their workforce includes an impressive number of young technical professionals who take their jobs very seriously and who have accomplished incredible things in a little over a decade.

Two others come directly to mind...

Planetary Resources: http://www.planetaryresources.com/#home-intro

and...

Deep Space Industries: https://deepspaceindustries.com/

Both of these new companies are privately held (as opposed to NASA) and are actively engineering and designing equipment to mine the asteroid belt for raw materials to manufacture products in space.  Both have not been around very long, and the entire private space industry does not employ tens of millions, yet, but you gotta start someplace.

Another is Bigelow Industries who currently have an experimental inflatable habitat flying aboard the ISS for long term testing.  Any mission to Mars or anywhere beyond Earth orbit may well one day heavily rely on a Bigelow inflatable of some kind.

Comparatively speaking, we are on a similar doorstep of incredibly advanced space flight, that the Wright Brothers found themselves on just a little over a century ago.  The opportunities in space are unlimited, if we can find a way to set our sights a whole lot higher than they are set right now.

 :beer:
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 02:04:36 pm by Chieftain »

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2016, 02:15:10 pm »
Either learn to service robotics or find something robots don't do and do it.

Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2016, 03:00:30 pm »

Did the world crash when the automobile finally became ready for prime time, and all of those carriage drivers lost their jobs?  No, it didn't.

Actually machine intelligence presents a problem which has no analogue in the previous advances of mechanization.  Carriage drivers became cabbies -- indeed in Britain the legal terminology (also used popularly) "hackney carriage" remained unchanged from the pre-automobile era.  What will street sweepers, garbage collectors, fruit pickers, truck drivers, and the like become when their jobs can be done more cheaply by AI-controlled machines?

The problem won't come soon, but it seems likely there will come a point when all jobs that can be reliably and enjoyably done by people of below average intelligence, yes even the new ones created by the new technologies, will be able to be done more cheaply and more reliably by AI-driven robots (yes, even picking soft fruit), while at the same time the number of people of above average intelligence needed to do the remaining jobs will be smaller than it is now (e.g. a MOOC on quantum field theory delivered by the best expositor of the subject could displace the instructional role of hundreds of PhD physicists).  So long as the allocation of rewards is done entirely in favor of the professional managerial classes as is done now (not in favor of capital as the left would have it -- shareholders aren't reaping the benefits, they are going into the pay packets of the people who are supposed to be the shareholders fiduciaries, but now function primarily in their own interests) this shift, unlike previous advances will create not just massive unemployment, but a massive unemployable underclass -- those not intelligent enough to hold down any of the new jobs that still require human beings to do. 

The left has a program for dealing with this, and it looks like a combination of Brave New World and A Clockwork Orange.  We on the right had better come up with something better than letting the market sort it out -- unless we're going to fix the market, which is now severely distorted by "pro-business" laws and regulations that are actually anti-market and give too much power to the professional managerial class (whether in business, government, or the non-profit sector) and too little to everyone else (both labor and capital), and even then I'm not sure the market has a good way of dealing with this.
 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 03:02:27 pm by The_Reader_David »
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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2016, 03:31:40 pm »
Capitalism depends upon creative destruction so that low value work is eventually reduced in favor of higher value productive enterprises. By identifying sources of waste and inefficiency and improving business processes, capital is made available for investment in entirely new categories of products and services to serve the changing demands of the marketplace. Technological and scientific advances are also funded by capital investment and propelled by educational and foundational institutions, creating a demand for newer and more high-skilled labor.

The great problem we face in the United States is that our Federal government has become hostile to business, at least to those businesses that  do not or cannot afford hoards of lobbyists to buy favors and exemptions from the multitude of legal and regulatory barriers to entry for their potential competitors. Our regulatory burdens are enormous, our corporate taxes are the highest in the developed world, our higher education system is turning out politically-indoctrinated dunces by the millions, and our politicians are as corrupt as the day is long.

But let's build a big beautiful wall, fight trade wars with the rest of the world and refuse to reform our unsustainable entitlement programs, and everything will be just fine. 
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2016, 03:33:29 pm »
Capitalism depends upon creative destruction so that low value work is eventually reduced in favor of higher value productive enterprises.

LOL


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Offline r9etb

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Re: What Happens When Millions of Jobs Are Lost Because of Automation?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2016, 03:36:58 pm »
We on the right had better come up with something better than letting the market sort it out -- unless we're going to fix the market, which is now severely distorted by "pro-business" laws and regulations that are actually anti-market and give too much power to the professional managerial class (whether in business, government, or the non-profit sector) and too little to everyone else (both labor and capital), and even then I'm not sure the market has a good way of dealing with this.

The main problem with all of the "solutions" on this thread is that they neglect to address the central fact of the article: automation will put people out of work rather rapidly, and many of those people are likely to remain out of work for a long while.  And that has political ramifications.

It's all very well to say, "oh, well, person X can just retrain."  Nice in theory -- but what's his family going to do for food in the meantime?  How are the people affected going to react?

FWIW, I think this dynamic is already at work in the US; and I think the simmering anger of those affected explains the success of the Trump and Sanders campaigns.  Not that either of those guys actually proposed anything that would actually help, but both politicians did a great job of identifying and tapping into the anger.

The Left is very, very effective in giving lip service and government money to those affected.  What is the conservative response?