What forms of taxation are justified if any?

[EC]

Still, none of that is my central argument. Nor the focus of this thread. Flack can have his USDA, and can pay the taxes for it via direct costs on the products carrying the USDA label. And those who wish to buy unpasteurized milk from a local dairy can do so.

In a free country.

We all win.

 

Agree on that!

[IsailedawayfromFR]

More complicated society today. Everything you needed back then you bought locally.

Back in the founders days we did not buy presciption drugs from China or do commerce with numerous countries. We did not buy cows from other countries that may have mad cow disease.

We need  a federal USDA and other groups to keep and eye out for the American people.

And before you say let the states do it my wife and own 3 companies and we live right on the border of another state and the state regulation between the two are  nearly totally different.

@IsailedawayfromFR

Nothing in those comments justify more federal taxes now vs early in the country's history.

People who say 'it's more complicated now' just use that as an excuse.

Much of what the federal government does can be eliminated and done by either the states or the private sector, so one does not need to pay taxes for that 'complication'.

And you seem to suggest that, since two states have two different laws, you need the federal government to step in to regulate?  What a recipe for disaster if that logic was continued to its inevitable conclusion, which would be eliminate state laws.

It is healthy in the extreme to have states act differently.  LIke I said, if one state decides to punish its citizens, those who wish can flee to more accommodating states, leaving the poor states to rot.

One cannot leave the USA easily if they make poor decisions.

[Smokin Joe]

Me too.  In fact, I don't think it's the business of the federal government to know what I make or how I make it.

I oppose it simply enough on this basis:

If I exchange my skills or labor over a period of time for money, that is an exchange, value for value. That isn't "income", it is an exchange.  No different than trading the cow for magic beans.

If a person or company pays that exchange, but makes money on that, that difference is income (with the cost of all such exchanges and any materials and incidental expenses deducted from the gross revenue).

Saying those who make the most money (or have the highest value exchanges in practice) should pay more is just wrong, and that is coming from someone who has made it as far up the food chain as the 33% bracket and been back down again.

That the government is bloated enough to have placed us in debt far enough that the value of every good or service produced for a year would not pay off the debt is the problem, considering that debt has not been solely incurred doing what the Federal Government is supposed to do.

It's purpose is to provide for the common defense, to coin money, to keep the post roads open, and to settle disputes between the states. We also hold it to be the authority when other levels of government threaten the Rights enshrined in the Constitution. While the semantically creative may be able to shoehorn the myriad powers the Federal Government has usurped into those functions, for the most part, those additional functions should be the domain of the several States or left to the people and their local governments.

Keep in mind the total level of taxation which the Founders rebelled against was 3%, and it puts in perspective the modern dilemma.

[RetBobbyMI]

Repeal the 16th Amendment and eliminate the direct taxation that is the root of the federal government's growth and spending.  Go back to taxing the states proportionately based on population.  This would have multiple effects.  States would then not willingly have sanctuary cites, they wouldn't try to count dead people in each census, and most of all would be able to fight back at federal overreach.

[mirraflake]

Prosperity gets rid of things like that, not big government!  And, that includes child labor.  If mom and pop can feed the family on their own earnings, they don't send the youngsters out to toil in the coal mines.

What got rid of child labor was child labor laws. Early unions brought prosperity to this country more than anything.
@Sanguine

[mirraflake]

Nothing in those comments justify more federal taxes now vs early in the country's history.

People who say 'it's more complicated now' just use that as an excuse.

Much of what the federal government does can be eliminated and done by either the states or the private sector, so one does not need to pay taxes for that 'complication'.

And you seem to suggest that, since two states have two different laws, you need the federal government to step in to regulate?  What a recipe for disaster if that logic was continued to its inevitable conclusion, which would be eliminate state laws.

It is healthy in the extreme to have states act differently.  LIke I said, if one state decides to punish its citizens, those who wish can flee to more accommodating states, leaving the poor states to rot.

One cannot leave the USA easily if they make poor decisions.

Each state making their own decisions would be a economy killer.  Companies would not be able to follow regulations from 50 different states.

[mirraflake]

And yet a lower death rate.

I am glad you brought that up.  Seems if the USDA was so great, maybe people would not die so much?

Point being, death comes to us all, if they die so young in India.... would not the death rate be higher than where we live so long with the USDA?

Their death rate is lower because they have a higher birth rate -which I pointed out earlier.

[Smokin Joe]

Each state making their own decisions would be a economy killer.  Companies would not be able to follow regulations from 50 different states.

To some extent, they already do that. Workman's compensation law (and fund setup), for example, varies from state to state. Commercial carriers have to pay highway taxes in states where loads originate or are delivered, permits for over height, width, pilot vehicle laws all vary. Environmental laws and emissions standards vary (which is why there are a variety of different fuel blends across the country). Some jurisdictions already mandate higher minimum wages, etc. If you want to do business there, you go by their rules.

[geronl]

replace all taxes with a membership fee!

[geronl]

Each state making their own decisions would be a economy killer.  Companies would not be able to follow regulations from 50 different states.

Companies already do. Why does a company move from California to Texas? Lower taxes, lesser regulations, better business environment.

[Crazieman]

Companies already do. Why does a company move from California to Texas? Lower taxes, lesser regulations, better business environment.

Wow, this guy is a true, blue nationalist government type.

The ENTIRE point of the United States was a loose federation of semi-nationstates.

They were so terrified of centralized government, the first attempt was the Articles of Confederation.  It was too loose and unbinding, closer to the European Union.

Learn your history, @mirraflake

[Sanguine]

What got rid of child labor was child labor laws. Early unions brought prosperity to this country more than anything.
@Sanguine

Nonsense. On both counts.

[Bigun]

What got rid of child labor was child labor laws. Early unions brought prosperity to this country more than anything.
@Sanguine

BS!  100% USDA Choice Grade A!

What brought prosperity to this country was F R E E D O M ! ! !  Of which we have damned little these days!

[mirraflake]

Nonsense. On both counts.

Stop it..Please. Get educated.

Do you think those companies got rid of child labor out of the goodness of their hearts?  Child labor began to decline as the labor unions grew and labor standards via gov't laws in general began improving favoring the worker, increasing the political power of working people and other social reformers to demand legislation regulating child labor.

Labor unions gave us the 5 day work work among numerous other things we take for granted today.


@Sanguine

[Dirt for sale]

Free markets bring power to the individual and his unrestricted choice. This improves both the markets and the individual.
Imagine the diversity of vehicles on the road in a free market of automobiles. Instead of every car looking the same because mandatory safety equipment gives every car a bubble butt and zero rear visibility, the customer could purchase the amount of safety he wanted. Cars could be sexy again, and designers and artists could have power again, in such a free market.

[mirraflake]

BS!  100% USDA Choice Grade A!

What brought prosperity to this country was F R E E D O M ! ! !  Of which we have damned little these days!

We had more freedom in the 1900's so we did we have this below and rampant poverty?  There  needs to be safeguards to watch out for the people.  You never did tell which country you want to live in that has no federal safeguards such as the USDA etc,.

My dad set up pension plans years ago. He remember co's firing firing workers a week before  retirement so they would not have to pay the worker(s) a pension.  Federal Vesting Laws eliminated that in all 50 states in one swoop...maybe even your own parents benefited from it.

Do you really think states would have taken the initiative? No.

You anti fed gov't folks crack me up..I bet if your child got sick from eating contaminated food from China you would be hounding the politicians asking why nothing was better watched.

Again I have said it several times the current gov't we have is too large and cumbersome and need be moved back but I don;t want all the fed watchdog groups eliminated.



@Fantom
@Sanguine
@Bigun

[mirraflake]

safety he wanted. Cars could be sexy again, and designers and artists could have power again, in such a free market.

My wife has a 2015 Camaro SS..not sure where you think cars are boring today.  We have more selection and choices than we ever did. My wife SS cleans the clock of any 60's musclecar. 12.85 stock in the quarter. Moist 60's and 70's musclecars were in the 13 to 14 second range.

We have Dodge Hellcat at 700+ hp.. etc.


Did you ever see a 55 or 57 Chevy? They were identical except you had a choice of a 2 door, 4 door, wagon or convertible.
@Dirt for sale

[Dirt for sale]

My wife has a 2015 Camaro SS..not sure where you think cars are boring today.  We have more selection and choices than we ever did. My wife SS cleans the clock of any 60's musclecar. 12.85 stock in the quarter. Moist 60's and 70's musclecars were in the 13 to 14 second range.

We have Dodge Hellcat at 700+ hp.. etc.


Did you ever see a 55 or 57 Chevy? They were identical except you had a choice of a 2 door, 4 door, wagon or convertible.
@Dirt for sale

I don't personally care for the new muscle cars because their faces strike me as angry and predatory. As for beautiful classic muscle cars, no better showing exists on film than the original, H.B. Halicki's Gone In 60 Seconds.
As for your picture of children working dangerous machines, all self respecting customers would shun such a business, and it would adapt or perish very quickly in a free market.

[Sanguine]

Stop it..Please. Get educated.

Do you think those companies got rid of child labor out of the goodness of their hearts?  Child labor began to decline as the labor unions grew and labor standards via gov't laws in general began improving favoring the worker, increasing the political power of working people and other social reformers to demand legislation regulating child labor.

Labor unions gave us the 5 day work work among numerous other things we take for granted today.


@Sanguine

Well, bless your little pea-picking heart!  Yeah, OK, I'll work on that educated thingie.   

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I lean right but I' m also a realist conservative on some things but liberal on others. ..you anti gov't folks crack me up.. want to disband nearly every gov';t agency. You are the one who needs to take the chill pill.  Thank God you are just a small segment  of the population. This is no longer 1784.

Here is what limited gov't get's you. A friend on FB just came back  from India doing missionary work for 8 weeks. This is what much of the country looks like or nearly like.. A small segment of society is doing fine..the rest..just well sucks. (not her photo). Sorry I will stick to a larger gov't like we have  in the US rather than helter skelter though I think many gov't agnecies could be downsized and less laws.

@Fantom

Idiotically stupid liberal talking points. India is not a small government anything and were outright socialist for many years. Try again.

[Bigun]

We had more freedom in the 1900's so we did we have this below and rampant poverty?  There  needs to be safeguards to watch out for the people.  You never did tell which country you want to live in that has no federal safeguards such as the USDA etc,.

My dad set up pension plans years ago. He remember co's firing firing workers a week before  retirement so they would not have to pay the worker(s) a pension.  Federal Vesting Laws eliminated that in all 50 states in one swoop...maybe even your own parents benefited from it.

Do you really think states would have taken the initiative? No.

You anti fed gov't folks crack me up..I bet if your child got sick from eating contaminated food from China you would be hounding the politicians asking why nothing was better watched.

Again I have said it several times the current gov't we have is too large and cumbersome and need be moved back but I don;t want all the fed watchdog groups eliminated.



@Fantom
@Sanguine
@Bigun

You big government liberals crack me up! I grew up in AMERICA and NOTHING I ate or drank was inspected by anyone other than my parents! Most of it was produced right on our place and I lived to tell about it!

Quite healthy in fact!

[mirraflake]

As for your picture of children working dangerous machines, all self respecting customers would shun such a business, and it would adapt or perish very quickly in a free market.

Why didn't  the customers shun the business back then? 

Child labor is still being used today in clothing manufacturing in 3rd world countries. Don't see people shunning the business today.

Child labor was rampant back then. It was only early labor unions and Federal laws which got rid of the practice.

@Dirt for sale

[mirraflake]

You big government liberals crack me up! I grew up in AMERICA and NOTHING I ate or drank was inspected by anyone other than my parents! Most of it was produced right on our place and I lived to tell about it!

Quite healthy in fact!

This is no longer back then. Very few people today produce their own food. I grew up in a time when nearly everyone on my street had a garden. The road I live on now no one has except us.

How do you  inspect your food today you buy from a store for contaminants? You had  a chemistry lab  and a PHD daughter in Chemistry in your basement?.

@Bigun

[Dirt for sale]

A free marketplace of ideas and effective, unafraid investigative journalism are also necessary to a free republic. The press enabled then and they are worse now. I blame destructive trade treaties like NAFTA for making shrimp farmed in human sewage cheaper than pink shrimp from our own gulf, and overseas products with no oversight cheaper than our highly regulated domestic wares.

[mirraflake]

A free marketplace of ideas and effective, unafraid investigative journalism are also necessary to a free republic. The press enabled then and they are worse now. I blame destructive trade treaties like NAFTA for making shrimp farmed in human sewage cheaper than pink shrimp from our own gulf, and overseas products with no oversight cheaper than our highly regulated domestic wares.

I agree 100%

@Dirt for sale