Odyssey of a NeverTrumper

[Liberty Tree Dr]

Let me put it this way. A Clinton Presidency will be predictably bad.

A Trump administration will be unpredictably so.

Either way, we're screwed, imho, but at least the GOP in Congress can be excoriated for not stopping or working to stop Hillary. In the case of Trump, it would be the opposite, no matter how bad his policies might be--the Congress (if still controlled by the GOP) would be expected to back him up.

I don't support either. I will vote for Castle, at this point.

I could buy this argument, except the GOP Congress (if they retain control) has done a miserable job of holding Obama accountable.  This is again a known problem versus a gamble.  Hobbson's choice, I know...

[Restored]

I don't think Hillary is well enough to be President for very long. I don't think Trump can take the heat of the media picking apart everything he says.

[Smokin Joe]

I could buy this argument, except the GOP Congress (if they retain control) has done a miserable job of holding Obama accountable.  This is again a known problem versus a gamble.  Hobbson's choice, I know...

There are some issues, particularly RKBA, that the GOP has managed to not back down on. I have decided to vote Constitution Party for POTUS, in hopes of helping build a political force to challenge the uniparty in the future. I like the platform far better than what the GOP has even tried to do in terms of smaller government, and a host of other issues. Down ticket, I will support mostly GOP candidates.

[aligncare]

So, will you state, for the record, that you believe Hillary winning will be less damaging to the country?  That you are more inclined to believe her Supreme Court picks will not be as bad as Trump's?  That her amnesty and grant of citizenship to 10-20 million illegals will make it easier for conservatives to win in 2020 and beyond?

I'd even respect a statement that goes something like, "The USA is doomed, and Hillary would just make it fall faster while there's enough left to salvage."  That is a logical argument (debatable, but still logical). 

You CAN choose how to vote - no one argues that.  You CANNOT, however, choose the consequences of your decision.  This is not an emotional statement.

The last thing I would want to do is introduce a dark note, but you know your chances of getting through to a NEVER! is slim to none, right?

I hate to be pessimistic about it but they have shown a remarkable capacity of ignoring the very real possibility that their actions will influence an election -- that is, when passion and a commitment to speaking out and campaigning against and voting against Hillary was needed -- they were absent. They were busy bashing Donald Trump (and his supporters – I might add).

You are absolutely correct, though. They do come at this from primarily an emotional state. I doubt that any have actually gone to websites and examined Mr. Trump's positions on the issues, which I had always believed were important to conservatives. However, the truth is the only thing that drives them is their hatred of Donald Trump. Such is politics.

But, that aside, you do Yoeman's work for the cause of logic and reason.

[roamer_1]

I could buy this argument, except the GOP Congress (if they retain control) has done a miserable job of holding Obama accountable.  This is again a known problem versus a gamble.  Hobbson's choice, I know...

What gamble? There is no bet. Trump is known.

[r9etb]

But, that aside, you do Yoeman's work for the cause of logic and reason.

Ironic that a purveyor of strawmen should be lecturing us about logic and reason.

[aligncare]

I'll enter you in my "sent home crying" log.

Trump supporters ask for discussion, what we usually get are insults -- as clearly seen in the above.

You know, some people say that I'm redundant, that I repeat myself, that I say things over and over.  ^-^

But, I've got nuffin' on never Trump. They take every opportunity, every thread, every post, to scream at the top of their lungs, "No way I'm voting for Donald Trump!" Really? I never before heard that line uttered on TBR. Who would've ever guessed?

But, please. Keep telling us every time how you're not voting for Donald Trump. Hillary likes hearing it.

[Bigun]

Trump supporters ask for discussion, what we usually get are insults -- as clearly seen in the above.

You know, some people say that I'm redundant, that I repeat myself, that I say things over and over.  ^-^

But, I've got nuffin' on never Trump. They take every opportunity, every thread, every post, to scream at the top of their lungs, "No way I'm voting for Donald Trump!" Really? I never before heard that line uttered on TBR. Who would've ever guessed?

But, please. Keep telling us every time how you're not voting for Donald Trump. Hillary likes hearing it.

I'm not voting for Trump because he is Hillary's butt boy and that has been explained to you and others here hundreds of times already!  You don't want discussion you want blind compliance just like Hillary and Trump! If you were given the same mod powers your cohort has you would be doing the exact same thing she does!  Pulling or modifying comments she doesn't like or if need be shutting down entire threads!

[sinkspur]

Trump supporters ask for discussion, what we usually get are insults -- as clearly seen in the above.

You know, some people say that I'm redundant, that I repeat myself, that I say things over and over.  ^-^

But, I've got nuffin' on never Trump. They take every opportunity, every thread, every post, to scream at the top of their lungs, "No way I'm voting for Donald Trump!" Really? I never before heard that line uttered on TBR. Who would've ever guessed?

But, please. Keep telling us every time how you're not voting for Donald Trump. Hillary likes hearing it.

When have you EVER "discussed" Trump?  Your constant refrain on threads, for MONTHS, has been to whine about those who criticize Trump.

Telling us to go to his website when he's disavowed half the things that website states as his views doesn't work any more.  Trump's   positions change with the wind, so any rational attempt at dissecting them is fruitless. 

Most people who oppose Trump oppose Trump THE MAN.  He is a reprehensible human being who treats anyone who disagrees with him like dirt and encourages his supporters to do the same.

Nothing Trump can do  qualifies Trump for the presidency.  He must be defeated.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

What gamble? There is no bet. Trump is known.

The leopard doesn't change his stripes.  Nor do skunks.

[roamer_1]

The leopard doesn't change his stripes.  Nor do skunks.

And that's a fact.

[verga]

You realize you and your side are making the emotional arguments, right?  All I'm trying to do is make sure you think about the consequences.  If you're OK with what Hillary will do to the country, then just admit it.  Other members HAVE stated they are happier if Hillary wins - I don't agree, but at least I respect their position. 

You and your ilk would rather make insults, of course.  Please put me back on ignore if this is the best you can do.

What part of: " The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available."

is not clear to you? 

[verga]

So, will you state, for the record, that you believe Hillary winning will be less damaging to the country?  That you are more inclined to believe her Supreme Court picks will not be as bad as Trump's?  That her amnesty and grant of citizenship to 10-20 million illegals will make it easier for conservatives to win in 2020 and beyond?

I'd even respect a statement that goes something like, "The USA is doomed, and Hillary would just make it fall faster while there's enough left to salvage."  That is a logical argument (debatable, but still logical). 

You CAN choose how to vote - no one argues that.  You CANNOT, however, choose the consequences of your decision.  This is not an emotional statement.

@Liberty Tree Dr If you want to engage in even the most basic intelligent debate then please stop resorting to the use of logical fallacies. And two things for the record: 1) What you do or do not respect is of no consequence to me at all.
2) Your response is 100% emotional. When you attempt to tell someone else what they think, believe or feel, that is based in emotion.
Now to answer the question that you should be asking: Which candidate do I believe will be worse for the country. My response is, I have no idea. Both candidates are self absorbed narcissists. Hillary is pro-abortion and anti 2nd amendment. trump has even less foreign affairs experience then Hillary and no understanding of the Nuclear Triad. Both are documented liars and Ai don't hink eitehr can be trusted on any number of issues.

[r9etb]

@Liberty Tree Dr If you want to engage in even the most basic intelligent debate then please stop resorting to the use of logical fallacies. And two things for the record: 1) What you do or do not respect is of no consequence to me at all.
2) Your response is 100% emotional. When you attempt to tell someone else what they think, believe or feel, that is based in emotion.
Now to answer the question that you should be asking: Which candidate do I believe will be worse for the country. My response is, I have no idea. Both candidates are self absorbed narcissists. Hillary is pro-abortion and anti 2nd amendment. trump has even less foreign affairs experience then Hillary and no understanding of the Nuclear Triad. Both are documented liars and Ai don't hink eitehr can be trusted on any number of issues.

"But aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the show?"
 

[Silver Pines]

Just go out and vote everyone.

It is for the last time.

@bigheadfred

I heard that last time around, and the time before that.

[Silver Pines]

You realize you and your side are making the emotional arguments, right?  All I'm trying to do is make sure you think about the consequences.  If you're OK with what Hillary will do to the country, then just admit it.  Other members HAVE stated they are happier if Hillary wins - I don't agree, but at least I respect their position. 

You and your ilk would rather make insults, of course.  Please put me back on ignore if this is the best you can do.

@Liberty Tree Dr

A couple of things:

Firstly, allowing oneself to be guided by morals and principles is not "emotional."

Secondly, if you want to talk about consequences, here are some consequences for you.

You folks forced Trump on us despite being shown, over and over, clear evidence that the man is a lifelong liberal and an amoral sleaze.  No matter how much proof we offered, you chose to ignore it.   Just as you ignored our promises that we would never vote for such a person.

But you were riding high then, weren't you?  Things looked good for Trump at that point, and you could afford to dismiss us and tell us our votes weren't needed.   Still, we continued to try and get you to see sense, because we knew it would eventually come to this point.  Trump being Trump, we knew he would implode sooner or later, and you would be changing your tunes about needing our votes. 

And here you are...increasingly desperate as you see Trump's chances slip away.  But your problem isn't with us---it's with your candidate, who refuses to campaign outside of his vanity-stroking rallies, and who makes himself detestable to the general electorate.

But you're not going to change our minds.  You don't force a liberal Hillary donor on conservatives and then expect us to accept him.  You should have listened to us back then.  Now, it's as though we warned you not to put that gun to your head because it was loaded, but you went ahead and pulled the trigger anyway, and now you want to blame us for the injury.

It isn't going to wash.

[Stosh]

Pages and pages of posts and the number one reason to vote for Chump is that he's NOT Killary.  At this point in a campaign if your major selling point is "I'm not as bad as (fill in the blank)....America is in trouble.

Funny thing is both the Lib/Progressives and the GOP are yelling the same thing, make one wonder....

[verga]

The last thing I would want to do is introduce a dark note, but you know your chances of getting through to a NEVER! is slim to none, right?

I hate to be pessimistic about it

Then why do you do it so often?

that is, when passion and a commitment to speaking out and campaigning against and voting against Hillary was needed -- they were absent. They were busy bashing Donald Trump (and his supporters – I might add).

Please show direct eveidence of theis or admit that you are making things up out of whole cloth

You are absolutely correct, though. They do come at this from primarily an emotional state. I doubt that any have actually gone to websites and examined Mr. Trump's positions on the issues, which I had always believed were important to conservatives. However, the truth is the only thing that drives them is their hatred of Donald Trump. Such is politics.

[/quote]
which positions would those be?

https://youtu.be/rcUCLwWCihE

https://youtu.be/AXVaIMERRbU

https://youtu.be/GAaEAy_v988
He changes positions like I change my socks.
First he is going to build a wall, then it's negotiable , next it's a virtual wall, then it is .....
First he wants to ban all muslims, them muslims for terrorist countries.
First he is pro choice and won't ban partial birth abortion, this week he claims to be pro choice.

[INVAR]

The last thing I would want to do is introduce a dark note, but you know your chances of getting through to a NEVER! is slim to none, right?

I hate to be pessimistic about it but they have shown a remarkable capacity of ignoring the very real possibility that their actions will influence an election -- that is, when passion and a commitment to speaking out and campaigning against and voting against Hillary was needed -- they were absent. They were busy bashing Donald Trump (and his supporters – I might add).

YOU PEOPLE and YOUR PRINCE EMPHATICALLY STATED AND INSISTED THAT YOU DID NOT NEED OUR VOTE, OUR SUPPORT OR OUR HELP TO "WIN" THE ELECTION.  You said you would do it yourselves because you were a vast mob of peoples crossing all sorts of spectrums and backgrounds and that we who opposed your prince were less than irrelevant.  We did not matter anymore.

Now you people change your tune, get snarky and insist that our refusal to seig-heil your Il Douche is going to negatively influence the election.

Insulting our principles as you people and your prince have done for months, is going to deserve a decidedly emotional reply to you tyrants pretending to be freedom fighters.

[don-o]

@Liberty Tree Dr

A couple of things:

Firstly, allowing oneself to be guided by morals and principles is not "emotional."

Secondly, if you want to talk about consequences, here are some consequences for you.

You folks forced Trump on us despite being shown, over and over, clear evidence that the man is a lifelong liberal and an amoral sleaze.  No matter how much proof we offered, you chose to ignore it.   Just as you ignored our promises that we would never vote for such a person.

Holdonnow. I am 95% sure that LTD was, like me, a Cruz supporter. So the "we told you so" screed is, at best misdirected.

I do understand having ones mind made up. I was right there. But, God help me if I ever get so prideful that I cannot examine my own mind to see if it is correctly made up.

[EasyAce]

[Silver Pines]

Holdonnow. I am 95% sure that LTD was, like me, a Cruz supporter. So the "we told you so" screed is, at best misdirected.

I do understand having ones mind made up. I was right there. But, God help me if I ever get so prideful that I cannot examine my own mind to see if it is correctly made up.

@don-o

I'll let him address that.  Either way, he's pushing Trump when there's no point in it.

Sometimes, things are so clear-cut and so morally well-defined that examination isn't necessary.  But I appreciate the "prideful" label.

You know, when it comes to self-examination, you might want to hold up a mirror.  You decided to support Trump, which I understand although I don't agree with it.  But then you decided you had to convince the rest of us to do so, and in the process you've become a different person.  It's sad to see, but that's the effect Trump has on people.

[musiclady]

@don-o

I'll let him address that.  Either way, he's pushing Trump when there's no point in it.

Sometimes, things are so clear-cut and so morally well-defined that examination isn't necessary.  But I appreciate the "prideful" label.

You know, when it comes to self-examination, you might want to hold up a mirror.  You decided to support Trump, which I understand although I don't agree with it.  But then you decided you had to convince the rest of us to do so, and in the process you've become a different person.  It's sad to see, but that's the effect Trump has on people.

Amen!  Trump changes people........... and never for the better.

[thackney]

Holdonnow. I am 95% sure that LTD was, like me, a Cruz supporter. So the "we told you so" screed is, at best misdirected.

I do understand having ones mind made up. I was right there. But, God help me if I ever get so prideful that I cannot examine my own mind to see if it is correctly made up.

You need to stop assuming the mindset and convictions of others.  It isn't pride that keeps me from wanting to vote for Donald Trump.  It is the belief he is not my right choice for the job.

[RoosGirl]

They just don't want to be confronted with his flip-flops and inconsistencies. You'd think that at some point they would have had enough and said, "I'm not defending this goofball anymore." But noooooooooo. He's their own personal goofball and they love it when he's all squirrelly.

I texted a friend the video "Donald Trump Lying for 13 Minutes Straight." No response. The next day was his birthday so I texted a birthday greeting. No response. A couple of days later I wondered if my texts were getting through so I texted again, asking if my texts were getting through. A day later he responds, "Yes, I got them, but I don't trust anything the liberal puts together and I don't want Hillary in office. As we want [sic] have a U.S. anymore."

I replied, "Yes, I got the message that you're a Trumpster. I was mistaken to believe that seeing Trump actually contradict HIMSELF with his OWN words coming out of his OWN mouth would present a different perspective. You've made up your mind, and nothing will move you from that position. I understand that. But you have to give those liberals credit for how they got Trump to contradict himself so many times over so many years. And they have an amazing knack for getting him to do it even in the same week! I wonder if they have special powers over him?"

What it all boils down to is that they don't want you to confuse them with the facts.

You are describing the hopelessness that I commented about previously.  I know there are many many people who don't want to vote for Trump but are so convinced that they must.  That must be an awful feeling, I can understand why that trapped feeling would alter someone's personality.