Author Topic: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper  (Read 87679 times)

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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #375 on: August 17, 2016, 01:15:12 am »
The chaotic multiparty elections model is no panacea.  The ANSWER here is to LIMIT THE POWER of the Federal Government - and specifically that of the President.  The test of a good system is not what good people can do, but what the inevitable bad candidates CAN NOT do.

I have advocated limited government for a very long time. Long enough to know that you are not going to limit
the power of the federal government until the American mindset---from the humblest individual citizen to the most
resourcefully successful citizen alike---is turned away from the mentality that tells it that the first recourse for solving
any human problem, whether matters of commerce or common life, is the State; and, until the same American
mindset is turned away from the kind of thinking that elevates the president to what amounts to an elected monarch
above and beyond what the Constitution prescribes for both.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:15:33 am by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

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Offline verga

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #376 on: August 17, 2016, 02:05:02 pm »
Oh no, just heck no. I want my kids to know their Daddy stood by right and wrong no matter the consequences; I only can only pray I don't fail them in that. I want my girls to grow up and know that a real man lives by Davy Crockett's old saying. Be sure you are right, and then go ahead. If I don't live that example who are they going pick when they grow up?
You must do what you think is right and so must I, but in my mind a real man doesn't compromise his principles for expediency. I'm not going to sacrifice my sacred honor for Donald J. Trump, not by a durn sight.  The winners and the losers aren't determined on this earth anyways.
:amen:  888high58888 @Idaho_Cowboy @mystery-ak  T BR needs a like button
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline verga

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #377 on: August 17, 2016, 04:57:12 pm »
Or you might be uncomfortable if you have to think about the answers.  It is easier to ignore consequences than face them.  That doesn't make the consequences any less real. 

On the other hand, we all have coping mechanisms, and publicly standing on principle as the country falls down around your ears is better than huffing glue.  So good luck!
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #378 on: August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 pm »
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.

DITTOS.

 :thumbsup:

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #379 on: August 17, 2016, 05:08:41 pm »
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.
Double Dittos.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline verga

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #380 on: August 17, 2016, 05:11:05 pm »
Quando omni flunkus moritati. @musiclady  :laugh:
@Idaho_Cow boy one of my favorite quotes.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #381 on: August 17, 2016, 05:33:32 pm »
Dang fiat money ain't worth anything nowadays! Back when I was a kid a nickle would buy you real advice like cut a baby in half or Quando omni flunkus moritati. Thanks, @musiclady  :laugh:

HA!  A GIANT candy bar for a nickel, and music, music, music from the Nickelodeon.   :laugh:

(And now I have a new/old Latin phrase in my repertoire.  Thanks, @Idaho_Cowboy !)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 05:34:37 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #382 on: August 17, 2016, 05:36:44 pm »
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.

He does "ignorant smarmy" better than most around here.....

Good posting about the well thought out reasons for not voting for Trump, vs. the emotional tripe we see from elsewhere.

Thanks, @verga
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #383 on: August 17, 2016, 05:40:33 pm »
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.

Triple dog dittos

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #384 on: August 17, 2016, 05:44:30 pm »
Good posting about the well thought out reasons for not voting for Trump, vs. the emotional tripe we see from elsewhere.

Had an interesting exchange elsewhere, earlier today, with a couple of folks who were making the same argument from the opposite side:

Quote
In our current system one candidate of the two parties WILL win. A Trump victory must not be allowed to happen. The only way to assure that is to vote for Hillary and then act to change what you want to see changed. Please.

Exactly the same argument we're seeing here.

And my response to her was the same, too: I'm not required to accept the false choice she's demanding I make.  Neither is fit, and there's nothing wrong with voting for neither.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #385 on: August 17, 2016, 05:54:57 pm »
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.

There is a better chance of the Sweet Meteor of Death than there is the POTUS who takes the oath on Jan 20 not being the result of the binary choice. Oh. it has existence all right.


Online roamer_1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #386 on: August 17, 2016, 06:01:29 pm »
There is a better chance of the Sweet Meteor of Death than there is the POTUS who takes the oath on Jan 20 not being the result of the binary choice. Oh. it has existence all right.

No, there will be three choices in play, to say the least:
Those who vote for Clinton
Those who vote for Trump
And Conservatives, who will 'take their ball and go home' or vote 3rd party.

Guess which way I'll be going...

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #387 on: August 17, 2016, 06:08:30 pm »
There is a better chance of the Sweet Meteor of Death than there is the POTUS who takes the oath on Jan 20 not being the result of the binary choice. Oh. it has existence all right.

Your position is not unlike the mime who's trapped in the box.  He simply cannot see any way out.  Even though both candidates would mean utter disaster, the mime must, must stick with the traditional binary choice because.... well, why, exactly?

The only way the mime can leave the box is to .... just step out of it.  "Well, I'll be.  That box was never real to begin with."

The only way out of our political box -- Trump or Clinton?  Seriously?!? -- is simply to step out of it.  We're screwed this year no matter what.  But if enough people step out of the false box, then next time we might very well have a better choice.


Offline aligncare

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #388 on: August 17, 2016, 06:26:13 pm »
NeverTrump, that ne'er-do-well, amorphous pit of bile, actually believe their own fantasies and think that if they incessantly post negative opinions and false and misleading headlines, that that will make it so.

It won't.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #389 on: August 17, 2016, 06:32:43 pm »
No, there will be three choices in play, to say the least:
Those who vote for Clinton
Those who vote for Trump
And Conservatives, who will 'take their ball and go home' or vote 3rd party.

Guess which way I'll be going...

You missed the word result in the post you rsponded to.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #390 on: August 17, 2016, 06:33:22 pm »
NeverTrump, that ne'er-do-well, amorphous pit of bile, actually believe their own fantasies and think that if they incessantly post negative opinions and false and misleading headlines, that that will make it so.

It won't.
Definitely an antisocial type. Woof, woof, woof! That's my other dog imitation.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #391 on: August 17, 2016, 06:35:06 pm »

You have a strange way of ignoring me. So, after this, I will show you how it' s done.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #392 on: August 17, 2016, 06:53:12 pm »
You missed the word result in the post you rsponded to.

No, the 'result' will be generated by Conservatives 'staying home', yet again. In that, your binary choice is provably incorrect - Abstaining is an effective choice, and it has been all the way along. Elections have been lost because those that wish to abstain. So the choice is not binary, as your premise presumes.

I would argue that there is good evidence in Perot that 3rd Party is also valid - And more so this year... Both major candidates are unpopular - by epic, record setting proportions. Castle could very easily catch fire.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #393 on: August 17, 2016, 06:56:10 pm »
You have a strange way of ignoring me. So, after this, I will show you how it' s done.

I'll enter you in my "sent home crying" log. 

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #394 on: August 17, 2016, 07:12:43 pm »
NeverTrump, that ne'er-do-well, amorphous pit of bile, actually believe their own fantasies and think that if they incessantly post negative opinions and false and misleading headlines, that that will make it so.

It won't.

That Trump is not losing and heading for ignominious defeat? 

THAT is what is so, A/C.  And the negative headlines are generated by your orange peel.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #395 on: August 17, 2016, 10:00:18 pm »
As an adult who has had to come to terms with the fact that her parents (because they identified as Democrats) had to compromise and ultimately sell out on the principles upon which they raised me in order to continue to throw support behind the Democrat party, I heartily applaud you for your convictions. Even though I was an adult when I discovered that they were now defending things antithetical to my up upbringing, my heart sank as I watched my dear parents twist and turn to present contorted arguments that enabled them to ride the Democrat party rapids that carried them ever leftward.

Once I realized what my parents had had to embrace in order to justify their allegiance to the Democrat party, I decided that it would be prudent of me to separate myself from the Republican party -- a party with which I mostly identified and in which had great hopes of finding conservative candidates to represent me. It occurred to me that there could come a time when the Republican party could become just as flaky as the Democrat party, so from that point forward, I identified as a conservative. To the degree that the Republican party was aligned with true conservatism, I'd work toward that end with Republicans. Now that the term "conservative" has become so watered down in this election cycle, I have put a finer point on my political philosophy; I am now a Constitutional conservative. I pray that some segment of the Republican party doesn't come along and bastardize the meaning of that term, although I rather suspect some shmegegge will before long. Jaded? Me?

As an adult, I had observed the progression of events that took my parents from ones who taught me principles and values to two strangers who were willing to set those values aside for political expedience (and, at times, face-saving). Had I still been in my formative years when this move to the left occurred, I would have been quite confused. My foundation would have surely been shaken. Your children are truly blessed that you have chosen to reflect a trait of the Heavenly Father Who says, "I am the Lord. I change not."

A political party is a tool.

Conservatism...or, for that matter, Liberalism...these are political philosophies, or groups of philosophies based on certain precepts.

I vote Republican because up until the last twelve years, Republicans have been closer to my beliefs than has the other party.  But in the twenty years they've promoted, relentlessly, mush-moderates who would easily fit into EITHER party - who are running for the office because they want the job.  Because they want power and the trappings of power.

In the end, one picks the best choice.  Even if things are so bad that a meaningless protest vote is the best choice.

And as chaotic as the situation is, it's not beyond the realm that I could vote Democrat again.  If it were Zell Miller versus Donnie Lord Trumpy...I'd vote the D in a New York minute. 

However, I doubt that EITHER party is going to back serious people who love their nation, again, for a long time in the future.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #396 on: August 17, 2016, 11:39:46 pm »
Just go out and vote everyone.

It is for the last time.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Liberty Tree Dr

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #397 on: August 18, 2016, 11:59:52 am »
He does "ignorant smarmy" better than most around here.....

Good posting about the well thought out reasons for not voting for Trump, vs. the emotional tripe we see from elsewhere.

Thanks, @verga

You realize you and your side are making the emotional arguments, right?  All I'm trying to do is make sure you think about the consequences.  If you're OK with what Hillary will do to the country, then just admit it.  Other members HAVE stated they are happier if Hillary wins - I don't agree, but at least I respect their position. 

You and your ilk would rather make insults, of course.  Please put me back on ignore if this is the best you can do.
#NeverTrump = #HillarySupremeCourt
We can survive four years of Trump, we can't survive thirty years of Hillary's Supreme Court picks.

Offline Liberty Tree Dr

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #398 on: August 18, 2016, 12:08:57 pm »
@Liberty Tree Dr For the record, this is one of the most ignorant smarmy TOS worthy comments I have read on this site. The vast majority of the comments I have read from the  "never Trump" crowd have been cogent and intelligent. Our reasons for not supporting him are well thought out and NOT based on an emotional reaction. We have looked at his record, listened to his words, and arrived at what we consider to be a reasonable decision based on the best information available. The majority of us refuse to accept the self imposed  limitations  and complying with a nonexistent binary system.

So, will you state, for the record, that you believe Hillary winning will be less damaging to the country?  That you are more inclined to believe her Supreme Court picks will not be as bad as Trump's?  That her amnesty and grant of citizenship to 10-20 million illegals will make it easier for conservatives to win in 2020 and beyond?

I'd even respect a statement that goes something like, "The USA is doomed, and Hillary would just make it fall faster while there's enough left to salvage."  That is a logical argument (debatable, but still logical). 

You CAN choose how to vote - no one argues that.  You CANNOT, however, choose the consequences of your decision.  This is not an emotional statement.
#NeverTrump = #HillarySupremeCourt
We can survive four years of Trump, we can't survive thirty years of Hillary's Supreme Court picks.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #399 on: August 18, 2016, 12:15:37 pm »
So, will you state, for the record, that you believe Hillary winning will be less damaging to the country?  That you are more inclined to believe her Supreme Court picks will not be as bad as Trump's?  That her amnesty and grant of citizenship to 10-20 million illegals will make it easier for conservatives to win in 2020 and beyond?

I'd even respect a statement that goes something like, "The USA is doomed, and Hillary would just make it fall faster while there's enough left to salvage."  That is a logical argument (debatable, but still logical). 

You CAN choose how to vote - no one argues that.  You CANNOT, however, choose the consequences of your decision.  This is not an emotional statement.
Let me put it this way. A Clinton Presidency will be predictably bad.

A Trump administration will be unpredictably so.

Either way, we're screwed, imho, but at least the GOP in Congress can be excoriated for not stopping or working to stop Hillary. In the case of Trump, it would be the opposite, no matter how bad his policies might be--the Congress (if still controlled by the GOP) would be expected to back him up.

I don't support either. I will vote for Castle, at this point.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 12:16:40 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis