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Offline Restored

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #350 on: August 16, 2016, 01:38:49 pm »
Voting for the Republican means a president who will be kept in check by the media.
Voting for the Democrat means a president whose critics will be kept in check by the media.
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Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #351 on: August 16, 2016, 02:40:48 pm »
I have little doubt that I share your principles. But there is a difference of opinion how to correctly apply them to the current situation.

Is voting for an immoral / amoral man an immoral act? If it is, how can one vote at all? Does this resonate...? "There is none righteous..." and "All have sinned..."? Therefore, if I am to vote, I accept that I will be voting for a sinner; a sinner like me.

So the moral choice is whether to vote or not. The matter of who to vote for is a matter of prudential / practical judgment. Since I lack omniscience,  I am left to my God given reason to evaluate the more or less likely results of my choice.

If I decide that there is absolutely no difference, that the Republic is lost, and the end is nigh, I may need to consider if I am being tempted to despair. (That has always been an easy  one for me to fall into.)

I have decided that rejecting the binary choice endorses, in effect, thw worse outcome of the binary choice (Hillary Clinton). And I cannot get myself off that hook.

Your argument boils down to the idea that all sin is equivalent, and equally bad. You are not allowing for the possibility that while all of us are sinners, some of us strive to do better and some of us embrace sin wholeheartedly.  Looked at in that way, the moral choice would be to vote for the candidate that is trying hardest to do the best, or at least the candidate not embracing evil and sin as much.
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Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #352 on: August 16, 2016, 02:52:54 pm »
Voting for the Republican means a president who will be kept in check by the media.
Voting for the Democrat means a president whose critics will be kept in check by the media.

This goes to a very important matter that perhaps is not getting the attention it needs. And that  matter is a continuing  awareness of the input we all are using to inform our opinions.

Who is steering me in what direction and why?

My Trump Realism does not mean that I am blind to his messaging problems. But those shortcomings do not blind me to the agendas of those purporting to "report the news" or grace me with their opinions.


Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #353 on: August 16, 2016, 03:15:59 pm »
Voting for the Republican means a president who will be kept in check by the media.
Voting for the Democrat means a president whose critics will be kept in check by the media.

That's an interesting concept - but WHY do we ACCEPT it?

I understand Separation of Powers and divided government - but the media is not government and it is unaccountable and dishonest.  Having them not enable a corrupt and demented old-bat Empress is good; but having them just as out-of-control, LIBELING the Lord-President, is JUST as bad.

WITNESS the chaos they caused during George W. Bush's two terms.

This is worth considering - but in its own right, in rejecting the media; in putting pressure on would-be sponsors to NOT sponsor it.  To turn OFF the Idiot Box.  To NOT get news from Yahoo.  To NOT immerse ourselves in this filthy, twisted propagandist media.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #354 on: August 16, 2016, 03:19:35 pm »
My Trump Realism does not mean that I am blind to his messaging problems. But those shortcomings do not blind me to the agendas of those purporting to "report the news" or grace me with their opinions.

I guess if you can dismiss Trump's utter unfitness for office as "messaging problems," then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #355 on: August 16, 2016, 03:26:33 pm »
I guess if you can dismiss Trump's utter unfitness for office as "messaging problems," then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

Is that a promise?

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #356 on: August 16, 2016, 03:31:03 pm »
And here is an example showing why this thread is a waste of time and effort: Trump Supporters and #NeverTrump'ers have fundamentally different worldviews, and neither can really understand or comprehend the other.   **nononono*
Yep. There's a lack of respect, creeping into both sides that is troublesome.
 
-We both believe this election will fundamentally change America
-We both care about what direction this country is headed in.
-We both want the best for this country going forward
-We are both concerned about the country we leave our children
-We both think the Clinton's will be a disaster.
-We are both following our conscience in casting our vote.
-We both believe the other side is inadvertently helping Hillary Clinton

-We do see a completely different way forward.

-However, that key difference should not in the minds of either side negate the commonalities or lead us to believe the other side is merely pretending to believe them. I must do what I think is right and Trump supporters must do what they think is right. Hopefully in the post-Trump conservative movement we can join forces again. In the mean time we would be wise not to kill those who don't say Shibboleth the way we do.

-Neither side is going to be brow beaten into violating what they believe to be right or against the reasoned decisions they have made. This panicky "Oh em gee, if you don't join my side you're of the devil" attitude is ludicrous. Most of us are just shoveling these posts out of the way to get to the good stuff, and there is a lot of good stuff on this thread and that can lead to greater wisdom and understanding.

Just my $0.02
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #357 on: August 16, 2016, 03:31:50 pm »
Is that a promise?

Oh, hell yes.  I'm a bit tired of your pompous reminders of "reality," when your grasp on same seems rather ... self-serving.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #358 on: August 16, 2016, 03:33:43 pm »
Yep. There's a lack of respect, creeping into both sides that is troublesome.
 
-We both believe this election will fundamentally change America
-We both care about what direction this country is headed in.
-We both want the best for this country going forward
-We are both concerned about the country we leave our children
-We both think the Clinton's will be a disaster.
-We are both following our conscience in casting our vote.
-We both believe the other side is inadvertently helping Hillary Clinton

-We do see a completely different way forward.

-However, that key difference should not in the minds of either side negate the commonalities or lead us to believe the other side is merely pretending to believe them. I must do what I think is right and Trump supporters must do what they think is right. Hopefully in the post-Trump conservative movement we can join forces again. In the mean time we would be wise not to kill those who don't say Shibboleth the way we do.

-Neither side is going to be brow beaten into violating what they believe to be right or against the reasoned decisions they have made. This panicky "Oh em gee, if you don't join my side you're of the devil" attitude is ludicrous. Most of us are just shoveling these posts out of the way to get to the good stuff, and there is a lot of good stuff on this thread and that can lead to greater wisdom and understanding.

Just my $0.02

 goopo

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Offline Restored

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #359 on: August 16, 2016, 03:41:16 pm »
If Hillary said the same things that Trump says, you would never know it. Our opinion of Trump is formed by the media narrative. Since I don't watch TV, my opinion is different. I'm not as startled by what he says because I don't receive the spin on it. Trump is just a bombastic businessman. That doesn't mean he will suck as a President. Hillary will be a dictator with a Goebbels-like media to support her.

With all the Trump Hitler comparisons, it's ironic that Hitler would have remained just a little loud-mouthed corporal if he didn't have the media propping him up.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #360 on: August 16, 2016, 03:43:21 pm »
I have little doubt that I share your principles. But there is a difference of opinion how to correctly apply them to the current situation.

Is voting for an immoral / amoral man an immoral act? If it is, how can one vote at all? Does this resonate...? "There is none righteous..." and "All have sinned..."? Therefore, if I am to vote, I accept that I will be voting for a sinner; a sinner like me.

So the moral choice is whether to vote or not. The matter of who to vote for is a matter of prudential / practical judgment. Since I lack omniscience,  I am left to my God given reason to evaluate the more or less likely results of my choice.

If I decide that there is absolutely no difference, that the Republic is lost, and the end is nigh, I may need to consider if I am being tempted to despair. (That has always been an easy  one for me to fall into.)

I have decided that rejecting the binary choice endorses, in effect, thw worse outcome of the binary choice (Hillary Clinton). And I cannot get myself off that hook.
There is, imho, no pretty option this time.

For me the fallacy of the binary choice is that it not only results in worse outcomes, but will continue to result in worse outcomes, and that will not change as long as we are slaves to that binary choice. One side will play the other against the other in the Kabuke Theater that politics has become, and when the red lights go off on the cameras they all go off to dinner together and raise a few to the dumbasses who keep them in their lifestyle. If the media people mind their Ps and Qs and prove trustworthy, they get to become somebodies and walk the halls of power, otherwise, they can do sports in Podunk.

I don't think the Republic is lost quite yet, otherwise, I'd be looking to do what my ancestors did when they received the land grant from Charles I. The writing is on the wall, leave while the leaving is good.

Instead, after decades of pushing that GOP button, I have decided that doesn't work. The Democrat button has had an 'out of order' sign on it from day one, but there are other choices.

Looking down the list, at the various Third Party options which have the potential to become major forces, I see the Libertarians, pushed by the media because they will likely not become the next Major Party because their platform will only be seen as liberalism with fewer rules. By giving attention to them, the Media can continue to marginalize the third parties and yet fulfill their obligation to report. Ditto the Green Party, but both have earned their place at the political table through the work of those promoting them. We are all sinners, but there are more flavors than chocolate and vanilla.

I like the platform of the Constitution Party, so I'll stump for it here. I see that as a return to the values which helped found this country, and I can back it without qualm.

If no one builds these other options by not paying fealty to the binary choices, we will be stuck with those same choices. Few on this site like the overall direction that has taken this country in the past half-century (Reagan was an outlier, a flyer on the political target of those 50 years) yet many are in thrall to the same system which brought them the left shift in the political arena, and promises more of the same in practice, if not with words. Those parties did not spring up overnight fully developed and powerful. It took work, and that means people who find the Party worth investing time and energy in will have to start and then continue to develop the support base needed to get to prominence as a political power. But it has to start somewhere.

If not now, when?

Otherwise, next election there will be another boogeyman facing another worse boogeyman and we'll have to vote for one or the other or the world will end. Again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It is time to break the cycle.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 03:44:00 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #361 on: August 16, 2016, 03:46:07 pm »
Or you might be uncomfortable if you have to think about the answers.  It is easier to ignore consequences than face them.  That doesn't make the consequences any less real. 

On the other hand, we all have coping mechanisms, and publicly standing on principle as the country falls down around your ears is better than huffing glue.  So good luck!

To paraphrase the Flight of the Phoenix; if you think that we behave as if stupidity were a virtue; you've made it a bloody science! What is to be gained by comparing those who hold fast to their principles (as you yourself are doing) to druggies? Since when did compromising values become a virtue? Were Patrick Henry or Davy Crockett equivalent with glue sniffers in your eyes?

The consequences I'm worry about first are before the judgement seat of Christ not on this earth. I have a firm belief that compromising my values on this earth will not lead to good consequences here or there. You cannot get get good by choosing evil, nor can you go north by hiking south. If you want to get #Never Trumpers to join your cause you would first have to convince us Trump is a good choice, not by waving the specter or Hillary in our face and shouting "boo"!

“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #362 on: August 16, 2016, 03:48:32 pm »
@Ghost Bear @DB

I'm curious, in a way, to see how deep the populism of Trump really is. The only way illary can win is through complete fraud. Pretty sure I couldn't take that. So if there really are that many people that  ticked maybe they will institute the Will Of The People.
That's how it should be. I just hope we didn't end up with one of two guys (the other being Jeb) who could lose to Hillary.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #363 on: August 16, 2016, 03:52:04 pm »
goopo

(Worth AT LEAST a nickel!  :patriot:)
Dang fiat money ain't worth anything nowadays! Back when I was a kid a nickle would buy you real advice like cut a baby in half or Quando omni flunkus moritati. Thanks, @musiclady  :laugh:
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #364 on: August 16, 2016, 03:52:17 pm »
There is, imho, no pretty option this time.

For me the fallacy of the binary choice is that it not only results in worse outcomes, but will continue to result in worse outcomes, and that will not change as long as we are slaves to that binary choice.

...


It is time to break the cycle.

Okay.

What we had in the Republican primary was a paradigm of what a six-party race in the general election might look like.  NO ONE gaining really deep support, and two stalking-horses, Graham and Kasich.

GAMESMANSHIP.  And the LEAST desirable candidate who had some support (totally-repugnant candidates like Goober Graham and JEB! Shrub did get eliminated)...the guy with a very-shallow support base, with no articulated agenda, with nothing but bombast...Eric Hoffer's Arrogant Gesture...

...HE was the guy who came out on top.  With thirty-something percent of the vote.

THAT is what a multi-party national election grings us to.

That is also how Salvador Allende wound up as Chilean President/dictator.  He won a national election with far-less than a majority; and when he pretended he had a mandate and imposed drastic changes, the public revolted.

Closer to home, it's how Bubba won in 1992, with a three-way race.  Bubba got 42 percent of the vote.  Had Perot not been running, Bubba would still have gotten 42 percent - AND LOST.

The chaotic multiparty elections model is no panacea.  The ANSWER here is to LIMIT THE POWER of the Federal Government - and specifically that of the President.  The test of a good system is not what good people can do, but what the inevitable bad candidates CAN NOT do.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #365 on: August 16, 2016, 03:55:02 pm »
There is, imho, no pretty option this time.

For me the fallacy of the binary choice is that it not only results in worse outcomes, but will continue to result in worse outcomes, and that will not change as long as we are slaves to that binary choice.

...

If not now, when?

Otherwise, next election there will be another boogeyman facing another worse boogeyman and we'll have to vote for one or the other or the world will end. Again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It is time to break the cycle.

Outstanding post.  Well said.

Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #366 on: August 16, 2016, 03:57:24 pm »
Yep. There's a lack of respect, creeping into both sides that is troublesome.
 
-We both believe this election will fundamentally change America
-We both care about what direction this country is headed in.
-We both want the best for this country going forward
-We are both concerned about the country we leave our children
-We both think the Clinton's will be a disaster.
-We are both following our conscience in casting our vote.
-We both believe the other side is inadvertently helping Hillary Clinton

-We do see a completely different way forward.

-However, that key difference should not in the minds of either side negate the commonalities or lead us to believe the other side is merely pretending to believe them. I must do what I think is right and Trump supporters must do what they think is right. Hopefully in the post-Trump conservative movement we can join forces again. In the mean time we would be wise not to kill those who don't say Shibboleth the way we do.

-Neither side is going to be brow beaten into violating what they believe to be right or against the reasoned decisions they have made. This panicky "Oh em gee, if you don't join my side you're of the devil" attitude is ludicrous. Most of us are just shoveling these posts out of the way to get to the good stuff, and there is a lot of good stuff on this thread and that can lead to greater wisdom and understanding.

Just my $0.02

My two cents:

One side believes in sticking to principles such as honesty and integrity. One side believes that "their evil is so great, anything done by our side to defeat them is justified!"  In other words, the ends justify the means.

One side sees the other as dishonest and unprincipled. One side sees the other as inflexible and simple-minded.

The only time those two sides can work together is when each is deceiving themselves... or deceiving each other.

Personally, I don't see any positive way forward. I only see continued decline. There may be occasional moments, even years, of calm and apparent improvement (such as the years when Ronald Reagan was President) but looked at from the long view, the spiral is ever downward.

My own answer has been to look beyond this world at what comes next, and to do the best I can to prepare myself for it. Anyone else's mileage may vary.
Let it burn.

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #367 on: August 16, 2016, 03:58:32 pm »
There is, imho, no pretty option this time.

For me the fallacy of the binary choice is that it not only results in worse outcomes, but will continue to result in worse outcomes, and that will not change as long as we are slaves to that binary choice. One side will play the other against the other in the Kabuke Theater that politics has become, and when the red lights go off on the cameras they all go off to dinner together and raise a few to the dumbasses who keep them in their lifestyle. If the media people mind their Ps and Qs and prove trustworthy, they get to become somebodies and walk the halls of power, otherwise, they can do sports in Podunk.

I don't think the Republic is lost quite yet, otherwise, I'd be looking to do what my ancestors did when they received the land grant from Charles I. The writing is on the wall, leave while the leaving is good.

Instead, after decades of pushing that GOP button, I have decided that doesn't work. The Democrat button has had an 'out of order' sign on it from day one, but there are other choices.

Looking down the list, at the various Third Party options which have the potential to become major forces, I see the Libertarians, pushed by the media because they will likely not become the next Major Party because their platform will only be seen as liberalism with fewer rules. By giving attention to them, the Media can continue to marginalize the third parties and yet fulfill their obligation to report. Ditto the Green Party, but both have earned their place at the political table through the work of those promoting them. We are all sinners, but there are more flavors than chocolate and vanilla.

I like the platform of the Constitution Party, so I'll stump for it here. I see that as a return to the values which helped found this country, and I can back it without qualm.

If no one builds these other options by not paying fealty to the binary choices, we will be stuck with those same choices. Few on this site like the overall direction that has taken this country in the past half-century (Reagan was an outlier, a flyer on the political target of those 50 years) yet many are in thrall to the same system which brought them the left shift in the political arena, and promises more of the same in practice, if not with words. Those parties did not spring up overnight fully developed and powerful. It took work, and that means people who find the Party worth investing time and energy in will have to start and then continue to develop the support base needed to get to prominence as a political power. But it has to start somewhere.

If not now, when?

Otherwise, next election there will be another boogeyman facing another worse boogeyman and we'll have to vote for one or the other or the world will end. Again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It is time to break the cycle.

 :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands:

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Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #368 on: August 16, 2016, 04:02:56 pm »
The chaotic multiparty elections model is no panacea.  The ANSWER here is to LIMIT THE POWER of the Federal Government - and specifically that of the President.  The test of a good system is not what good people can do, but what the inevitable bad candidates CAN NOT do.

A couple of points.

First, I think the GOP is headed the way of the Whigs, to be replaced by some other party ... the general two-party structure probably remains, with perhaps some new fringe parties off to the side (as now).  I would not be surprised to see the Democrats facing the same realignment.

Second, it's all very well to say "limit the power of the Federal Government," but of course the question is, how?  To quote the lady, "These things must be done delicately...."  In reality, to achieve this presupposes a tremendous upheaval in the political (and probably economic) landscape.  So our real problem is to figure out what that political transition looks like, and how to achieve it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 04:04:27 pm by r9etb »

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #369 on: August 16, 2016, 04:29:28 pm »
There is, imho, no pretty option this time. 
-----
It is time to break the cycle.

Thank you for that. You brought something to my mind that I have briefly considered, but perhaps is worthwhile to add to the conversation.

Indeed, the supine posture of the Republican majorities is infuriating. Regardless of the reason (greed, corruption, cowardice, gullibility, stupidity) the cession of the exercise if Congressional responsibility to the Exeutive  has become baked in.

We could csrtainly list them. Among the most egregious to me is th so-called War Powers Act. There are many more.

So which of the binary choice (there I go again  888blackhat) is more likely to motivate the Congress to break with recent precedent and assume its lawful and vital role in checking the Executive?

Check Hillary? No way. There are enough spineless Republicans to join with the Dems to thwart that.  Welcome to Obama's third and fourth term.

Check Trump? Maybe. Certainly a more plausible and hopeful scenario.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #370 on: August 16, 2016, 04:32:54 pm »
The chaotic multiparty elections model is no panacea.  The ANSWER here is to LIMIT THE POWER of the Federal Government - and specifically that of the President.  The test of a good system is not what good people can do, but what the inevitable bad candidates CAN NOT do.

We  are thinking in the same vein on this.

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #371 on: August 16, 2016, 04:44:16 pm »


Second, it's all very well to say "limit the power of the Federal Government," but of course the question is, how?  To quote the lady, "These things must be done delicately...."  In reality, to achieve this presupposes a tremendous upheaval in the political (and probably economic) landscape.  So our real problem is to figure out what that political transition looks like, and how to achieve it.

The Constitution shows us how.  Shows us what the limits ARE and how to address violators.

And how to amend it when gaps or flaws show up.

And how to bypass the Federal government when Congress, which has turned on its people, refuse to enforce the Constitution or to consider Amendments.

The States lost their legislative body with Direct Election of Senators.  That has to be reversed; and then TERM LIMITS. 

And if an Article V convention is rejected, and even as the laborious process of going around roadblock politicians IS going on, work towards State Secession.

Remember, Secession need not be permanent or even carried through.  It's pulling down the fire hoses, as other attempts to control the bonfire are tried but are failing.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #372 on: August 16, 2016, 05:27:19 pm »
Okay.

What we had in the Republican primary was a paradigm of what a six-party race in the general election might look like.  NO ONE gaining really deep support, and two stalking-horses, Graham and Kasich.

GAMESMANSHIP.  And the LEAST desirable candidate who had some support (totally-repugnant candidates like Goober Graham and JEB! Shrub did get eliminated)...the guy with a very-shallow support base, with no articulated agenda, with nothing but bombast...Eric Hoffer's Arrogant Gesture...

...HE was the guy who came out on top.  With thirty-something percent of the vote.

THAT is what a multi-party national election grings us to.

That is also how Salvador Allende wound up as Chilean President/dictator.  He won a national election with far-less than a majority; and when he pretended he had a mandate and imposed drastic changes, the public revolted.

Closer to home, it's how Bubba won in 1992, with a three-way race.  Bubba got 42 percent of the vote.  Had Perot not been running, Bubba would still have gotten 42 percent - AND LOST.

The chaotic multiparty elections model is no panacea.  The ANSWER here is to LIMIT THE POWER of the Federal Government - and specifically that of the President.  The test of a good system is not what good people can do, but what the inevitable bad candidates CAN NOT do.
I guess you missed the point. When the GOP collapses under the weight of its own self-contradiction, there will have to be another Party ready to step into that void. People like two or three to choose from. Any more than that and their eyes glaze over.

The party I am for is the Constitution Party, which advocates limiting Federal Power. You aren't going to get that with the two leading the pack right now. Other parties won't get the following if there are better options available. At present there are a couple dozen 'third' parties out there, I just picked the one which goes by the Constitution, because I seriously believe the Founders had a good idea that has been corrupted, watered down and gotten around ever since, with only a couple of actual improvements after the Bill of Rights.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #373 on: August 16, 2016, 05:43:27 pm »
Thank you for that. You brought something to my mind that I have briefly considered, but perhaps is worthwhile to add to the conversation.

Indeed, the supine posture of the Republican majorities is infuriating. Regardless of the reason (greed, corruption, cowardice, gullibility, stupidity) the cession of the exercise if Congressional responsibility to the Exeutive  has become baked in.

We could csrtainly list them. Among the most egregious to me is th so-called War Powers Act. There are many more.

So which of the binary choice (there I go again  888blackhat) is more likely to motivate the Congress to break with recent precedent and assume its lawful and vital role in checking the Executive?

Check Hillary? No way. There are enough spineless Republicans to join with the Dems to thwart that.  Welcome to Obama's third and fourth term.

Check Trump? Maybe. Certainly a more plausible and hopeful scenario.
I don't see Trump as anything but the thinnest of maybes, in that regard.
I see parallels with his opponent, only not as well exposed and documented because of either lack of opportunity or the curtain of private industry as opposed to the spotlight of public life.

I see him more as one who would take advantage of a Congress that can't resist a Democrat in the Oval Office, much less a forceful individual. (granted we don't know how key Valerie Jarrett has been behind the scenes nor the legions of other Dem minions). So that would all boil down to one mercurial personality who has played fast and loose with the truth in order to gain what he wants, and who is exhibiting a vindictive streak dominating the political landscape, using the powers usurped by predecessors and official agencies to target whom he pleases.  I do not see him forcing the Congress to take that power back.  I don;t see the current Congress acting as an effective check against him.

In attacking Heidi Cruz, he didn't bother to find out who ran the ad, but assumed it came from the Cruz camp, then, when the truth came out he lied about it and doubled down.

In principle, I see little difference. I wish I could say Trump is on 'our' side, but I don't think he is on any side but his own, whatever that entails, and whatever rules for the little people he violates.

I see them as equally dangerous, and neither as a step back toward the Constitutional Republic we desire, but rather both as damaging to those ends.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Mod1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #374 on: August 16, 2016, 11:44:17 pm »
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,221046.0.html

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