Odyssey of a NeverTrumper

[musiclady]

I would never accuse the Trump supporters around here of "hating their country," because they clearly do not. 

However, I do have to wonder about their understanding of what this country stands for, and what it means to support a man who is quite obviously unfit to lead it.

Their complete misuse of the word "democracy" and their devotion to a man who is, if anything ANTI-Constitutional reveals a deep lack of understanding of what America stands for.

I agree that they do not "hate their country."  They are just oblivious as to what really has made this country great.

Donald Trump doesn't understand America, nor does he have the resources nor beliefs to do anything but take it further down into oblivion.

[Smokin Joe]

Donald Trump doesn't understand America, nor does he have the resources nor beliefs to do anything but take it further down into oblivion.

But....but....BUT he's been involved in four major bankruptcies! Obviously he knows what he is doing...(Is the country in THAT much trouble?) :nometalk:

[flowers]

But what do you love?  Do you love sticking to your ideals more than you love the United States and your fellow citizens?  In other words, does feeling good about being a #NeverTrump person trump the nasty results of your position?  Are you OK with saying you think Trump's Supreme Court picks will be worse than Hillary's?  That you don't mind the citizenship/voter registration effort she starts in the first 100 days?

These are Yes or No questions.

Very, very good questions.

[Smokin Joe]

Very, very good questions.

But you didn't answer the 'yes or no'. They aren't questions they are rhetorical traps.

[roamer_1]

But what do you love?  Do you love sticking to your ideals more than you love the United States and your fellow citizens? 

Without Conservatism, there is no United States. For that reason, yes. What we conserve are the very principles we were founded upon.

In other words, does feeling good about being a #NeverTrump person trump the nasty results of your position? 

Your premise, that defeating one liberal with another will somehow be 'better,' is a ludicrous proposition. The results will be nasty regardless. If you want something better, fight to elect the Conservative. The answer to this question is made null - it is a false premise.

Are you OK with saying you think Trump's Supreme Court picks will be worse than Hillary's?  That you don't mind the citizenship/voter registration effort she starts in the first 100 days?

Again, the premise is rendered null - There is no evidence that Trump would pick better judges than Clinton.
Both are liberals, both believe in big government - You hang your hopes on a promise that has already been overturned.

There is no positive reason to vote Trump. This is nothing more than 'lesser evil' and is an argument without any meat upon the bone. Conservatives - That is, TRUE Conservatives, are not swayed by fear. We know we stand upon solid ground.

[roamer_1]

It occurs to me that the spoonful of sugar that is represented by Americans positively choosing (through election) Conservatism, and seeking to overturn the present direction - That spoonful of sugar would certainly make the medicine much easier to swallow...

But swallow we will, one way or another... Or we will surely die.

The poison is liberalism. The cure is Conservatism.

Those that seek any other comfort are fooling themselves.

[bigheadfred]

I am kinda hoping for a hillary win.

[Ghost Bear]

I am kinda hoping for a hillary win.

I'm kinda hoping a meteor falls on the site of the first debate and takes them both out.

But don't tell the Secret Service I said that.  :nometalk:

[DB]

I am kinda hoping for a hillary win.

I'm hoping for a miracle and that one or both candidates flame out before the election and a saner choice presents itself.

[INVAR]

But what do you love?  Do you love sticking to your ideals more than you love the United States and your fellow citizens?  In other words, does feeling good about being a #NeverTrump person trump the nasty results of your position?  Are you OK with saying you think Trump's Supreme Court picks will be worse than Hillary's?  That you don't mind the citizenship/voter registration effort she starts in the first 100 days?

These are Yes or No questions.

You might as well be asking the following:

But what do you love? Do you love sticking to your God and your bible and your moral principles and your minority beliefs more than what the people in this country say they want?

In other words, does feeling good about being a Christian trump all the nasty consequences of making other people feel guilty in their sins that come from your intransigent beliefs?  Are you okay saying you think your views on morality, such as adultery and homosexuality trump what the Supreme Court and the majority of this people believe is moral?

The world hates those who cling to unchangeable truth.

John 15:18

[RoosGirl]

@Idaho_Cowboy
@Smokin Joe
@roamer_1
@INVAR

I appreciate your responses to the questions that were posed to me.  It is nice to have all of your similar, but different, perspectives that are all equally great answers.

[Liberty Tree Dr]

But you didn't answer the 'yes or no'. They aren't questions they are rhetorical traps.

Or you might be uncomfortable if you have to think about the answers.  It is easier to ignore consequences than face them.  That doesn't make the consequences any less real. 

On the other hand, we all have coping mechanisms, and publicly standing on principle as the country falls down around your ears is better than huffing glue.  So good luck!

[Ghost Bear]

Or you might be uncomfortable if you have to think about the answers.  It is easier to ignore consequences than face them.  That doesn't make the consequences any less real. 

On the other hand, we all have coping mechanisms, and publicly standing on principle as the country falls down around your ears is better than huffing glue.  So good luck!

And here is an example showing why this thread is a waste of time and effort: Trump Supporters and #NeverTrump'ers have fundamentally different worldviews, and neither can really understand or comprehend the other.   

[Smokin Joe]

Or you might be uncomfortable if you have to think about the answers.  It is easier to ignore consequences than face them.  That doesn't make the consequences any less real. 

On the other hand, we all have coping mechanisms, and publicly standing on principle as the country falls down around your ears is better than huffing glue.  So good luck!

My principles were principles long before I came along. They are the principles of my Deity, the founders, and my ancestors who go back on this continent to the early 1600s. A relative was a signer of The Declaration of Independence. If you read my answers, you will see I have given these some thought. Departure from those principles is not something be to be taken lightly, especially not those principles laid out by Almighty God, and after careful and lifelong consideration, I have decided not to.

 If you are only interested in making snarky comments about huffing glue and watching the country fall down, consider I alone cannot support the country. By myself, I can't glue together what has been broken any more than I can break it. That usually takes a mob. I am not one, nor am I part of one.

I will stand on my principles and hope and pray enough will stand with me that when we pick up the pieces from this great Trumpertantrum, we can reassemble those into something more resembling the Republic we had than the mess y'all (with abundant assistance) broke. The seminal question is one of where you will stand and what you will do. My mind is made up.

[bigheadfred]

@Ghost Bear @DB

I'm curious, in a way, to see how deep the populism of Trump really is. The only way illary can win is through complete fraud. Pretty sure I couldn't take that. So if there really are that many people that  ticked maybe they will institute the Will Of The People.

[bigheadfred]

@RoosGirl

And here is an example showing why this thread is a waste of time and effort: Trump Supporters and #NeverTrump'ers have fundamentally different worldviews, and neither can really understand or comprehend the other.   

They do? Different worldviews. I think they have the same worldviews.  In a round about way.  It is the flat earth people that have a different worldview.

[bigheadfred]

My mind is made up.

Did you make it up yourself? Or did you have help?  Juuuuust kidding. Of course you had help.

Life is just a fantasy. Can you live this fantasy life?

[RoosGirl]

@RoosGirl

They do? Different worldviews. I think they have the same worldviews.  In a round about way.  It is the flat earth people that have a different worldview.

Not sure what you would have me understand from your comment.

[Smokin Joe]

Did you make it up yourself? Or did you have help?  Juuuuust kidding. Of course you had help.

Life is just a fantasy. Can you live this fantasy life?

Yep. I'm figuring it out, read a book that helps, and its been interesting, so far. I have had a tremendous amount of help, though from a fellow from Nazareth and His Dad. I'm doing reasonably well, all things considered. Always room for improvement, always somewhere to go if things go downhill. It's like flying. If you don't run out of air before you land, you did okay.

[DB]

Or you might be uncomfortable if you have to think about the answers.  It is easier to ignore consequences than face them.  That doesn't make the consequences any less real. 

On the other hand, we all have coping mechanisms, and publicly standing on principle as the country falls down around your ears is better than huffing glue.  So good luck!

The consequences for voting for evil people is more evil. Neither candidate has a moral compass that guides them. Both are vile liars that say whatever it takes to further their wealth/power without any shame whatsoever. It isn't any more complicated than that. To think you can make a deal with either candidate and get a good outcome is plain foolish. If you vote for either of them the consequence is they will do their evil in your name and you will own a piece of it. No amount of "I didn't know" will absolve you of it - you had all the evidence you needed up front to know where it would go and you chose to do it anyway. That's the naked truth.

[EC]

But what do you love?  Do you love sticking to your ideals more than you love the United States and your fellow citizens?

What made America great?

Ideals and sticking to them. Nothing more.

[Stosh]

I'm kinda hoping a meteor falls on the site of the first debate and takes them both out.

But don't tell the Secret Service I said that.  :nometalk:

You realize of course that if SMoD was included in all the polls that are being taken, it could very well qualify for a podium on the same stage as Chump and Killary....

That SMoD is polling higher than any other 3rd party candidate is all I need to know about the acceptability of the lesser and greater evils currently running.

[geronl]

I remember, they were going to defy the GOP, destroy the GOPE etc etc

Now the same people they hated from McConnell to Ryan and McCain have been endorsed by Comrade Orange, and now THE PARTY is the end-all and be-all and we must have unity!

and Trump supporters can't see they have been led by the nose to embrace what they hated most a few months ago? Now these same people who wanted conservatives to win elections are actively leading anti-conservative hate campaigns?

By November they will all be led to voting for Hillary by Trump.

[don-o]

My principles were principles long before I came along. They are the principles of my Deity, the founders, and my ancestors who go back on this continent to the early 1600s. A relative was a signer of The Declaration of Independence. If you read my answers, you will see I have given these some thought. Departure from those principles is not something be to be taken lightly, especially not those principles laid out by Almighty God, and after careful and lifelong consideration, I have decided not to.

I have little doubt that I share your principles. But there is a difference of opinion how to correctly apply them to the current situation.

Is voting for an immoral / amoral man an immoral act? If it is, how can one vote at all? Does this resonate...? "There is none righteous..." and "All have sinned..."? Therefore, if I am to vote, I accept that I will be voting for a sinner; a sinner like me.

So the moral choice is whether to vote or not. The matter of who to vote for is a matter of prudential / practical judgment. Since I lack omniscience,  I am left to my God given reason to evaluate the more or less likely results of my choice.

If I decide that there is absolutely no difference, that the Republic is lost, and the end is nigh, I may need to consider if I am being tempted to despair. (That has always been an easy  one for me to fall into.)

I have decided that rejecting the binary choice endorses, in effect, thw worse outcome of the binary choice (Hillary Clinton). And I cannot get myself off that hook.

[Ghost Bear]

You realize of course that if SMoD was included in all the polls that are being taken, it could very well qualify for a podium on the same stage as Chump and Killary....

That SMoD is polling higher than any other 3rd party candidate is all I need to know about the acceptability of the lesser and greater evils currently running.

We should probably be glad that Boaty McBoatface isn't on the ballot.