Author Topic: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper  (Read 105675 times)

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Offline MajorClay

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #150 on: August 08, 2016, 01:16:46 pm »
Great thread!  888high58888

Go Castle

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2016, 01:22:56 pm »
The lesser evil argument... No thanks.
At one time I embraced the rejection of  the "lesser of two evils" as if were a settled and irrefutable proposition. I would like to see defenders of that "truism" defend its validity.

For Conservatives to endorse Trump, against *every* Conservative principle, to not only endorse him, but to possibly give him a mandate (which he will claim regardless)... To spend four years suffering the things he will most certainly do in the name of conservatism...

Politics is the art of the possible. As to Conservatism....

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The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally - not a 20 percent traitor.
Ronald Reagan

Anyone notice the fractured  that and honest analysis of present day Conservatism reveals it to be?



Better to put up with the enemy outside the gate, than to let him inside. No sale.

HRC = Known enemy. Ideologically pure.
DJT = Pragmatist. Neither friend nor enemy with satisfying consistency. Ideology is a mishmash.

Conservatism and Ideological Politics


http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2013/10/conservatism-ideological-politics.html








Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2016, 01:42:28 pm »
DJT = Pragmatist. Neither friend nor enemy with satisfying consistency. Ideology is a mishmash.

How ... interesting ... that you left out the whole "malignant narcissist, undisciplined, untrustworthy, veering madly on policy, self-destructively picks stupid fights, and never seems to learn a damned thing" part.

I guess if you need to justify a bad choice, it's best to whitewash the bad things.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #153 on: August 08, 2016, 02:14:52 pm »
Once again, it is not the lessor evil argument. 

Yes, it most certainly IS.

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It is clear who the prudential choice here is.  Can you name a single elected Constitution party official?

I don't need to. That which I stand for IS that which I stand for. 
If it isn't what I stand for, what in hell makes you think I will stand?

Of course I will stand for Castle.

1.) From all that I can see, he is a man of honor - That means he WILL do what he promises to do. Not that he will succeed mind you, but I do know he will try.

2.) And I know him to be Conservative, in the strict sense - That means he is well within the 80% margin of those things that I do stand for - I agree with him, in almost every case.

Those two aspects - the mettle he is made of, and his ideological stance - These are ready made for Conservatives to vote *for*. I can very easily endorse the man. In fact, though my vetting of him is not complete, there is so very little I can object to that objection pales to insignificance.

There is literally *no* comparison, no reasonable argument for me to likewise vote for Trump.

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IF we want serious candidates from this party on the national stage, we ought to at least get one elected as Lt. Governor.

I couldn't care less. What the Constitution party stands upon (with great integrity) is the very same ground as me. That is all I need to know.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #154 on: August 08, 2016, 02:30:34 pm »
At one time I embraced the rejection of  the "lesser of two evils" as if were a settled and irrefutable proposition. I would like to see defenders of that "truism" defend its validity.

I will be happy to. Let's get on with it.

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Politics is the art of the possible. As to Conservatism....

Fine, if what you want is more politicians. Perhaps one would do better to dwell upon the definition of 'statesmanship'.

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Anyone notice the fractured  that and honest analysis of present day Conservatism reveals it to be?

There is no way that Trump meets the 80% mark - And even if he did come close, his character is of such a meager state that he is utterly untrustworthy - As I have said, it is his character, first and foremost, that disqualifies him. I need not even approach the ideology question at all.

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HRC = Known enemy. Ideologically pure.
DJT = Pragmatist. Neither friend nor enemy with satisfying consistency. Ideology is a mishmash.


Oh, bullcrap. Trump is more NYC liberal than anything else. But here we are again at character: What is it that you would use to secure the promises that he claims to stand upon?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #155 on: August 08, 2016, 07:56:21 pm »
Can you name a single elected Constitution party official?

IF we want serious candidates from this party on the national stage, we ought to at least get one elected as Lt. Governor.
Not yet. If the Constitution Party is going to have elected candidates to office, it will need support. Not voting for someone or a particular party because they never won anything before just guarantees the status quo.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #156 on: August 08, 2016, 08:44:40 pm »
Not yet. If the Constitution Party is going to have elected candidates to office, it will need support. Not voting for someone or a particular party because they never won anything before just guarantees the status quo.

I went over to the Constitution Party site (https://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/platform-and-resolutions/), just to see what those guys were all about.  Some decent stuff, but some of their positions (e.g., return to the gold standard) are a bit loopy; and their stances on foreign policy and national defense are downright dangerous: did they learn nothing from the 20th Century? 

All in all, they remind me of earnest doctrinaire libertarians with a different take on certain social issues. 

As a matter of politics, their primary weakness is the assumption -- almost certainly unfounded -- that most people understand and share their view of the Constitution.  The CP treats the Constitution as a fixed guide, upon which all agree, and as such it is the starting point for further discussion. 

But they've got it backwards: the Constitution is the culmination of the Founders' thinking.  It represents the end point -- no further discussion: this is what the government looks like.  Unfortunately, the reality of modern politics is that not everybody has the same views on the Constitution.  The debate has to be held again.


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #157 on: August 08, 2016, 10:41:10 pm »
I went over to the Constitution Party site (https://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/platform-and-resolutions/), just to see what those guys were all about.  Some decent stuff, but some of their positions (e.g., return to the gold standard) are a bit loopy; and their stances on foreign policy and national defense are downright dangerous: did they learn nothing from the 20th Century? 

All in all, they remind me of earnest doctrinaire libertarians with a different take on certain social issues. 

As a matter of politics, their primary weakness is the assumption -- almost certainly unfounded -- that most people understand and share their view of the Constitution.  The CP treats the Constitution as a fixed guide, upon which all agree, and as such it is the starting point for further discussion. 

But they've got it backwards: the Constitution is the culmination of the Founders' thinking.  It represents the end point -- no further discussion: this is what the government looks like.  Unfortunately, the reality of modern politics is that not everybody has the same views on the Constitution.  The debate has to be held again.
The only reason that debate might have to be held again is that people have become accustomed to the usurpation of power which has been accomplished by those at the Federal Level. Some people read into the Constitution a Right to murder babies in the womb, to force people to perform services for them (so far, baking cakes, arranging flowers and taking pictures, or the use of their property, but that will increase as the mindset does). Some people read that they have 'special' rights or privileges, by virtue of genetics or habits. And there are even some who read into it a right to prohibit others from doing things because they are somehow offended. etc. these 'found' rights are often in conflict with fundamental and long established rights enshrined in the Constitution and in legal precedent.

Branches of government have abdicated their Constitutional duties and those duties have either been ignored, neglected, or taken up by other branches of government which promulgate rules and regulations with the force of law and little or no Congressional oversight, or which rewrite laws to rule they are Constitutional. Everyone is legislating. Not their job.

That makes it difficult for the average person or small business to keep up with the changes, and that favors larger, existing businesses which can have a legal staff, HSE, or HR departments to keep up with that. A sole proprietorship doesn't have a chance. If those laws (you can be prosecuted, fined, or incarcerated for breaking them, so call it what you will, but they are laws) were written, discussed, and either approved or defeated by the branch of government which is tasked with producing legislation, there would be far fewer of them. There would not be time to generate that sheer volume of material. But then, if those laws did not usurp the power of the states to regulate things within their own several borders, they would not be needed. Let the power devolve. Then the States can choose what to prioritize, and act accordingly or not.

In the past few decades, things have been found in the Constitution I am sure the Framers didn't put there, and frankly, I can't find. Given that, and weak logical skills, it is no surprise that there are people who think they have a Constitutional Right to equal outcomes, not just equal opportunities. We have a whole Federal Department writing universal standards which virtually guarantee that level of ignorance of original intent and the philosophy behind it will continue or become worse. Again, a usurpation, combined with a distinct conflict of interest. (Federal Control vs Liberty)

It won't be straightened out any time soon, mainly because the problem is an educational one, and becoming a cultural one.

Going back to that basic framework (including repeal of the 17th Amendment), and even a more original (to the time of the Amendment) interpretation of the 16th Amendment would do much to curb the Federal Leviathan. (Income was not considered to include  wages, but the income from investments. Working for wages is an exchange of a service or skill for something more universally accepted: money. An exchange, not income.) A balanced budget would be a nice start, too. That would mean stripping the Federal Government of a host of usurped powers and the agencies which wield them, and returning those powers to the states to regulate as they see fit and as their budgets will allow, or abolishing those controls and returning that power to the people directly. Which would mean the people, ultimately, would decide what would be done by government--that as a question of scope as well as intensity, and how that money would be raised.

At present we aren't on the gold standard. If anything, it is the oil standard: the 'petrodollar'. Only being the reserve currency, the unit accepted for petroleum sales worldwide, the currency oil is priced in, has permitted the tremendous 'overprinting' of the dollar and kept the currency afloat. Everyone has some, no one wants it to fold. If that status was removed, the dollar would not be worth anything but a small fraction of its current purchasing power, and would have to be exchanged for some other currency or commodity to engage in international trade.
This keeps us tied to the Saudis, despite out ability to produce enough oil for our own needs and/or import it from elsewhere (Canada, Mexico, for two), and to tap the vast resources available offshore on our continental shelf and in Alaska. (Keep in mind that if you split Alaska down the middle, Texas becomes the third largest state). Neither, with the exception of the Gulf of Mexico (as part of the continental shelf) has been well explored, and the GOM has plenty of room for wildcatting. So, despite the terrorists on 9/11 being overwhelmingly Saudi nationals, we have military forces deployed to defend that nation, our president bows to their leadership, and our (oil) industry is severely damaged by their market shenanigans as they try to shut it down, raising the value of the petrodollar by flooding the market with crude oil and hurting our international export trade.
By shifting their production quotas they control the value of the dollar in world markets, and because they are holding a lot of dollars, the value of their holdings as well.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #158 on: August 08, 2016, 11:16:08 pm »
The only reason that debate might have to be held again is that people have become accustomed to the usurpation of power which has been accomplished by those at the Federal Level.

Everything you say following this sentence is true.  But it's this sentence that needs to be addressed.  Put another way, people hold to a set of beliefs and expectations that are different from the beliefs and expectations that the Founders wrote into the Constitution.

I think the reason why, has mainly to do with the fact that we, as a society, have largely forgotten what it's like to worry about dire consequences.  Because our nation is so very wealthy, we really don't face the same sorts of consequences that drove the Founders.  Being free of consequences has its undoubted good sides, but it also causes us to not think things through as well as we might -- we (as a society) are able to do incredibly stupid things without immediate penalty. 

Of course, it all adds up to things like political fragmentation and $20 trillion in federal debt, the butcher's bill for which will eventually come due.  But as Mr. Keynes pointed out, that's all been thought of as "long run" stuff, and "in the long run we're all dead."  Not our problem.

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It won't be straightened out any time soon, mainly because the problem is an educational one, and becoming a cultural one.

True.  The question is: in the absence of consequences, can we ever hope to use education to change the culture to take us back to the earlier view of government and society?


Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #159 on: August 08, 2016, 11:27:48 pm »
Everything you say following this sentence is true.  But it's this sentence that needs to be addressed.  Put another way, people hold to a set of beliefs and expectations that are different from the beliefs and expectations that the Founders wrote into the Constitution.

I think the reason why, has mainly to do with the fact that we, as a society, have largely forgotten what it's like to worry about dire consequences.  Because our nation is so very wealthy, we really don't face the same sorts of consequences that drove the Founders.  Being free of consequences has its undoubted good sides, but it also causes us to not think things through as well as we might -- we (as a society) are able to do incredibly stupid things without immediate penalty. 

Of course, it all adds up to things like political fragmentation and $20 trillion in federal debt, the butcher's bill for which will eventually come due.  But as Mr. Keynes pointed out, that's all been thought of as "long run" stuff, and "in the long run we're all dead."  Not our problem.

True.  The question is: in the absence of consequences, can we ever hope to use education to change the culture to take us back to the earlier view of government and society?

I don't think things will change without serious consequences people just aren't wired that way.

As Kipling wrote in the last two stanzas of the God's of the Copybook Headings

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_copybook.htm
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #160 on: August 09, 2016, 12:33:38 am »



I don't think it's a matter of debate so much as old-fashioned EDUCATION.  And misinformed or ignorant people holding public seminars will do more harm than good.

Witness some of the threads here, which may or may not represent the party.  The "CONSTITUTION PARTY" advocating Internet censorship?  Yes, of porn.  Nobody is "for" porn - at least not in this kind of discussion group.  But to give the government the power to ban and censor pornography over the Internet, is to give the government the power to ban and censor over the Internet.  Porn will be the Slippery Slope.  Soon after, it will be ideas and political positions that the government rejects, which will be censored - and pornography, the opiate of the low-intellect masses, will be ignored and even encouraged.

So...obviously there are many in the so-called Constitution Party which have little understanding of Federalism or the danger of government control over media.

That's just one example.  I'm sure there are others but since this party is scarcely registering...I'm not going to knock myself out researching it.
I did not see any authorization in the Constitution to regulate porn, not that it would have been an issue.  At least not on the Federal Level. Now while that includes things we might find universally offensive, including child porn, abuse porn, S&M, coprophilic porn, and all sorts of sick stuff out there, I see no route to regulate that among adults at the Federal Level written into the Constitution. Other laws, be they for protection of children, against specific types of acts on a public health basis, etc. could be made, just not at the Federal level.

The States sure retain that option, and the people, themselves, have the option to not provide a market for what they consider obscene.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Liberty Tree Dr

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #161 on: August 09, 2016, 12:27:01 pm »
In reading through this thread at the #NeverTrump/#Lust4Hillary responses, I begin to wonder if the #NeverTrump folks are suicidal. 

Bear with me - they seem resigned to Hillary winning, because their brand of "conservatism" isn't being championed in this election cycle.  What gets me is, their brand of conservatism was NEVER championed by a nominated GOP candidate in past election cycles, but I don't think these folks ended up voting for Obama, or Gore, or Clinton.  Now though, after they thought they had their guy (our guy, actually, as a Cruz voter) and he managed to lose, they are at the "let Hillary win" stage. 

No matter that Hillary will seal the destruction of the United States that Obama started.  No matter that her Supreme Court nominees will strengthen Abortion, Homosexual Rights, Federal Power, Amnesty, and all the rest, forever dooming the country to Venezuela-style "democracy" within 20 years.

It's almost as if they are suicidal.  Worse, because they espouse actions that will destroy others - their children, grandchildren, and neighbors - theirs will take the form of murder-suicide.  And no amount of smug, "wash my hands of both parties" pseudo-moral sophistry eliminates their immoral watch-the-world burn attitude. 

Look up "normalization bias" and understand, you #NeverTrump/#****Hillary types, that you and yours will face murder and persecution in the world you advocate.  Living on a mountain or under a bridge won't save you.  Ask a Venezuelan. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 08:02:08 pm by Mod1 »
#NeverTrump = #HillarySupremeCourt
We can survive four years of Trump, we can't survive thirty years of Hillary's Supreme Court picks.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #162 on: August 09, 2016, 12:59:13 pm »
In reading through this thread at the #NeverTrump/#Lust4Hillary responses, I begin to wonder if the #NeverTrump folks are suicidal.   

Thank you for getting the thread back on topic. Tunnel vision and closed mindedness is tough to overcome unless one admits that he just might possibly have it.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #163 on: August 09, 2016, 01:43:05 pm »
In reading through this thread at the #NeverTrump/#Lust4Hillary responses, I begin to wonder if the #NeverTrump folks are suicidal. 

Bear with me - they seem resigned to Hillary winning, because their brand of "conservatism" isn't being championed in this election cycle.

Well, perhaps the strawman you've built is suicidal, but that's really up to you.

As for the real people who won't vote for Trump.... the guy is totally unfit for the office.  Of course we won't vote for him.  But we won't vote for Hillary, either, because she's also unfit for office.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #164 on: August 09, 2016, 02:46:23 pm »
Please can we  return to topic?

Offline Mod2

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #165 on: August 09, 2016, 03:00:53 pm »
Mod note:

This thread contains a very good discussion of the Gold Standard, which should not be lost.

I will be locking the thread for a short period to move that part of the discussion to a new thread in about 20 minutes. Sorry for any inconvenience!

The Gold Standard discussion is now HERE.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 03:28:26 pm by Mod2 »

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #166 on: August 09, 2016, 03:34:16 pm »
Mod note:
The Gold Standard discussion is now HERE.

Well done and much appreciated.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #167 on: August 09, 2016, 05:49:17 pm »
In reading through this thread at the #NeverTrump/#Lust4Hillary responses, I begin to wonder if the #NeverTrump folks are suicidal. 

No, quite the other way around - It is those who will compromise their beliefs that bring forth compromise. It is that compromise that is suicide.

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Bear with me - they seem resigned to Hillary winning, because their brand of "conservatism" isn't being championed in this election cycle. 

That's because it's true.

Quote
What gets me is, their brand of conservatism was NEVER championed by a nominated GOP candidate in past election cycles, but I don't think these folks ended up voting for Obama, or Gore, or Clinton. 

Oddly enough, the only Republican presidents that won were the ones that I voted for - I didn't vote for Poppy's 2nd term, I didn't vote for Dole, nor McCain't, nor Romney. Hmmm... Maybe that's a coincidence, or maybe that's what is at work against Trump too. Maybe once again the Republicans will have to learn that the way they win is by offering up a candidate who is true to what the Republicans purport to stand for.

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Now though, after they thought they had their guy (our guy, actually, as a Cruz voter) and he managed to lose, they are at the "let Hillary win" stage.
 

Rather, I have no dog in the fight - there is no difference between the two major candidates. Why should I vote for that which I do not believe in, and in fact abhor?

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No matter that Hillary will seal the destruction of the United States that Obama started.  No matter that her Supreme Court nominees will strengthen Abortion, Homosexual Rights, Federal Power, Amnesty, and all the rest, forever dooming the country to Venezuela-style "democracy" within 20 years.

The thing you leave out, doomsayer, is that I can largely say the very same thing about your candidate, and it would be true.

Quote
It's almost as if they are suicidal.  Worse, because they espouse actions that will destroy others - their children, grandchildren, and neighbors - theirs will take the form of murder-suicide.  And no amount of smug, "wash my hands of both parties" pseudo-moral sophistry eliminates their immoral watch-the-world burn attitude. 

Ahh... So it is IMMORAL *not* to vote for your immoral candidate over the other immoral candidate. Do you listen to yourself?

Quote
Look up "normalization bias" and understand, you #NeverTrump/#SeigHillary types, that you and yours will face murder and persecution in the world you advocate.  Living on a mountain or under a bridge won't save you.  Ask a Venezuelan.

You forget it was Geo. W. Bush that began the exponential devaluation of our money - Venezuela is coming, and there is nothing that is going to stop it now, especially a crony capitalist from NYC, whether it be the democrat one, or the republican one. And it is PRECISELY the refusal to insist upon Conservatism that has brought us here.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #168 on: August 09, 2016, 06:00:03 pm »
I would put political activity in general, and electoral advocacy in particular, in this category.  Nobody is either morally obliged nor morally prohibited from voting.  Nobody is morally obliged, or morally prohibited, from voting for a particular candidate.

I will add that if you vote for a deeply screwed-up candidate (which we all will, if we vote) we take on part-ownership of that person's official actions, and thus we acquire a solemn, long-term responsibility to kick our chosen politico's butt on a regular basis and seriously force him/her to do the right thing.  If you shrug off this long-term responsibility, you then become ever-more responsible for this politico's wrongdoing, inasmuch as he/she was "YOUR" candidate and you culpably failed to 
scream bloody murder to avert "YOUR" candidate's bad actions.

Class, discuss.
 

Suddenly, Teach, I'm even more grateful that my state has a "None of These Candidates" voting option
for presidential candidates (and others, in fact).

And that's the option I intend to vote come November. No apologies, no regrets.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline don-o

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #169 on: August 09, 2016, 06:03:51 pm »
Well, perhaps the strawman you've built is suicidal, but that's really up to you.

As for the real people who won't vote for Trump.... the guy is totally unfit for the office.  Of course we won't vote for him.  But we won't vote for Hillary, either, because she's also unfit for office.

What strawman would that be? I make propositional statements. I have shared how I have come to the conclusion I have. I mostly get back, bottom line, that a Clinton presidency is an acceptable outcome.

Reality. Deal with it.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #170 on: August 09, 2016, 07:08:54 pm »
What strawman would that be?

That would be the strawman built by the poster to whom I was responding.

Quote
I make propositional statements. I have shared how I have come to the conclusion I have. I mostly get back, bottom line, that a Clinton presidency is an acceptable outcome.

Aaaand, there's your strawman, which is clearly false.  Pretty much everybody on this thread has stated that a Hillary presidency is also unacceptable.

Quote
Reality. Deal with it.

Doctor, heal thyself.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 07:09:30 pm by r9etb »

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #171 on: August 09, 2016, 07:23:33 pm »

Look up "normalization bias" and understand, you #NeverTrump/#****Hillary types, that you and yours will face murder and persecution in the world you advocate.  Living on a mountain or under a bridge won't save you.  Ask a Venezuelan.

The conservative NeverTrump types here are being equated to "****Hillary"?  Outrageous.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 08:03:10 pm by Mod1 »

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #172 on: August 09, 2016, 07:36:41 pm »
No matter that Hillary will seal the destruction of the United States that Obama started.  No matter that her Supreme Court nominees will strengthen Abortion, Homosexual Rights, Federal Power, Amnesty, and all the rest, forever dooming the country to Venezuela-style "democracy" within 20 years.

Tell us what we don't know.

But while you're at it, you might care to ask . . .

Where is the Evidence That Trump Would Defend the Constitution?


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline LonestarDream

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #173 on: August 09, 2016, 07:38:12 pm »

  Ask a Venezuelan.

Yes .  Obama/Hillary = Chavez/Maduro

In reading through this thread at the #NeverTrump/#Lust4Hillary responses, I begin to wonder if the #NeverTrump folks are suicidal. 

Bear with me - they seem resigned to Hillary winning, because their brand of "conservatism" isn't being championed in this election cycle.  What gets me is, their brand of conservatism was NEVER championed by a nominated GOP candidate in past election cycles, but I don't think these folks ended up voting for Obama, or Gore, or Clinton.  Now though, after they thought they had their guy (our guy, actually, as a Cruz voter) and he managed to lose, they are at the "let Hillary win" stage. 

No matter that Hillary will seal the destruction of the United States that Obama started.  No matter that her Supreme Court nominees will strengthen Abortion, Homosexual Rights, Federal Power, Amnesty, and all the rest, forever dooming the country to Venezuela-style "democracy" within 20 years.

It's almost as if they are suicidal.  Worse, because they espouse actions that will destroy others - their children, grandchildren, and neighbors - theirs will take the form of murder-suicide.  And no amount of smug, "wash my hands of both parties" pseudo-moral sophistry eliminates their immoral watch-the-world burn attitude. 

Look up "normalization bias" and understand, you #NeverTrump ... types, that you and yours will face murder and persecution in the world you advocate.  Living on a mountain or under a bridge won't save you.  Ask a Venezuelan.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 07:46:10 pm by LonestarDream »
(?) Trump Realist    (*) Trump believer   (?) Never Trump,   Which are you ?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Odyssey of a NeverTrumper
« Reply #174 on: August 09, 2016, 09:47:21 pm »
What strawman would that be? I make propositional statements. I have shared how I have come to the conclusion I have. I mostly get back, bottom line, that a Clinton presidency is an acceptable outcome.

Reality. Deal with it.
We are looking at which is the most survivable outcome at this point. You are conflicted having a son in the Armed Forces and find Hillary to be the greatest threat to your Son. Please keep in mind that whatever deals they had set up with terrorists in Benghazi, it was Obama as CinC who had to authorize any military rescue or support. He did not. That was not the purview of the Department of State, but the CinC.

That doesn't justify nor make me (or anyone else) feel any better about the shady dealings with the enemy in Libya, nor the whole Arab Spring (MB coup) and the attempts at regime change across North Africa and around the ME, which in turn set up the 'refugee crisis' which stuffed a somnolent Europe with terrorists, leading to the problems throughout the continent. Hillary is definitely a snake, a liar, a crook, and a traitor. But I don't think she'll shift gears to WWIII and possibly a nuclear exchange.

Which CinC would your Son be least threatened by? If I could predict the future I could tell you, but I can't. I understand your conflicted position, and why you came to the conclusion you have, and honestly wish I could say you are right. But I can't. Trump's rash, impulsive, and downright vindictive behaviour during the campaign, and then the lies to cover for being wrong, and continued attack indicate someone not ready for prime time statecraft. I think he'll make a disaster of foreign affairs, and that's when they'll call your Son and his brothers at arms in to fix it.

IMHO, neither outcome is acceptable, the question is which outcome will be survivable, not just for your Son, but for all of us and this Nation as well.

May Almighty God help us survive the harvest of our folly.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis