Odyssey of a NeverTrumper

[LonestarDream]

I only have the power of 1 vote. No Presidential campaign in history has been decided by 1 vote. Therefore, I don't have the power to choose the winner in this election, or any other.

And again, my job isn't to pick the winner anyway.  "Representative Republic", remember?

1) Any voter on this board will influence at least two dozen votes here and in their community.

2) We all get two votes actually.

It matters WHERE you started from.  If you voted for W, McCain or Romney your baseline is more aligned to the 'pure' Constitution Party platform which is our theoretical home.  If you voted for Gore, Kerry or Obama you have a Statist baseline.

Now if Trump can get a Statist to stay home, he gets one vote.  If he gets a Statist to switch sides, he gets two votes ( Hence the appeal to Bernie voters-  or least getting them to vote for Jill Stein since Bernie 'betrayed' these voters)

Conversely, if Hillary gets a conservative to switch sides, she gets two votes ( Hence Kaine as VP not Warren) . 

She also gets a vote if a Conservative uses their vote elsewhere...

[LonestarDream]

If Hillary is given a pathway to victory, people will learn the lesson that full corruption pays.

Like FDR, we will earn at least 16 years. of it.  The dems also had the house for 50 years as well.

There are many other things we can do other than voting for President that influence outcomes.  The TEA party was one positive movement while it lasted. 

This doesn't take into account the element of time, specifically as it flows from our actions as individuals or as a group.

Voting for either hitlery or stumpy is to reward bad behavior, and thus encourage more of it into the future.  If stumpy wins, every jerk with a spare nickel will ape the orangutan and run as an "outsider," lying, cheating, stealing, and smearing one's way to office, using the same tropes and idiocy as the orangutan.  I've already seen this by several candidates running for the House and Senate.  Ironically (or not so ironically), most of the are democrats.  The stumpy model fits well for them.

If hitlery wins, politicians will take as their model the iron stalinism of the new president.  And we will see them lining up the moneyed interests to power them into office, cutting deals with the party insiders to gain power, creating foundations ostensibly for charity that really serve as money engines, all the while as they preach freebies to the lumpenproletariat.

In either case, bad behavior will be rewarded by giving nearly all the votes to either the evil one or the evil & crazy one.

The alternative is to support a third party.  If enough folks do so, the turkeys who run our "major" parties might realize that they are losing their grip on the American electorate,  and try something different.  At this point, almost anything different from these twin evils would likely be an improvement.  Even Johnson.

So, my ballot will be cast with an eye toward the future.  I am resigned that this election will result in an evil outcome.  It is difficult for me to identify which is the worse evil.  Right now, I'm leaning toward stumpy as the worse evil.  But it doesn't matter.  Instead of participating in the current evil, I will cast my vote in a way to open the glimmer of a possibility for change.

Otherwise, if one only considers this election as a binary choice, the moral option is to refuse to participate in either of these works of satan, and stay home.

[Ghost Bear]

1) Any voter on this board will influence at least two dozen votes here and in their community.

2) We all get two votes actually.

It matters WHERE you started from.  If you voted for W, McCain or Romney your baseline is more aligned to the 'pure' Constitution Party platform which is our theoretical home.  If you voted for Gore, Kerry or Obama you have a Statist baseline.

Now if Trump can get a Statist to stay home, he gets one vote.  If he gets a Statist to switch sides, he gets two votes ( Hence the appeal to Bernie voters-  or least getting them to vote for Jill Stein since Bernie 'betrayed' these voters)

Conversely, if Hillary gets a conservative to switch sides, she gets two votes ( Hence Kaine as VP not Warren) . 

She also gets a vote if a Conservative uses their vote elsewhere...

1 person, 1 vote.

Representative Republic.

Everything else is rationalization to excuse voting for someone who doesn't represent you, or to attempt to get others to vote for someone who doesn't represent them.


Edited to better say what I meant to say.

[LonestarDream]

I have a much higher confidence level in your persuasive abilities and ultimate influence.

1 person, 1 vote.

Representative Republic.

Everything else is rationalization to excuse voting for someone who doesn't represent you, or to attempt to get others to vote for someone who doesn't represent them.


Edited to better say what I meant to say.

[roamer_1]

If Hillary is given a pathway to victory, people will learn the lesson that full corruption pays.

Voting for 'our guy' to block 'their guy' - Exactly the thing our fathers opined about in instituting the party system. It is only workable if 'our guy' is substantially what we would vote for without the party unity shtick.

The TEA party was one positive movement while it lasted.

The demise of the TEA Party is greatly exaggerated. At least here in the Rockies.

[sitetest]

If Hillary is given a pathway to victory, people will learn the lesson that full corruption pays.

Like FDR, we will earn at least 16 years. of it.  The dems also had the house for 50 years as well.

There are many other things we can do other than voting for President that influence outcomes.  The TEA party was one positive movement while it lasted.

If the orange lunatic is elected, given today's report of the lunatic asking why we can't use nukes, maybe it'll all end in mushroom clouds and nuclear fall-out. 

[LonestarDream]

The demise of the TEA Party is greatly exaggerated. At least here in the Rockies.

Great to hear.  Why we should be spending our time to promote it more and to convince our liberal friends to vote Jill Stein or Libertarian ( for the free weed   ) .

[roamer_1]

If the orange lunatic is elected, given today's report of the lunatic asking why we can't use nukes, maybe it'll all end in mushroom clouds and nuclear fall-out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGsY4vBYdYM

[LonestarDream]

If the orange lunatic is elected, given today's report of the lunatic asking why we can't use nukes, maybe it'll all end in mushroom clouds and nuclear fall-out.

Paying Iran billions to make nukes, giving ISIS arms and the Benghazi fiasco scare me far more.   

Not to mention NK playing around.  Obama/Hillary project zero deterrence.

Reagan projected deterrence but was widely portrayed as one who would accidentally blow up the world.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHmH1xQ2Pf4

[LonestarDream]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGsY4vBYdYM

Believe this is hearsay and we do not have the context....

[roamer_1]

Great to hear.  Why we should be spending our time to promote it more [...]

Not how it works up here... TEA Party is all about getting your own hands dirty. Find out who's jamming the deal in your area, show up, and find out what you can do to help. No superstructure, no glory, just hard-core activism.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Paying Iran billions to make nukes, giving ISIS arms and the Benghazi fiasco scare me far more.   

Not to mention NK playing around.  Obama/Hillary project zero deterrence.

Reagan projected deterrence but was widely portrayed as one who would accidentally blow up the world.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHmH1xQ2Pf4

A president that is buddies with Czar Putin isn't exaclty a spring picnic either.

[roamer_1]

Believe this is hearsay and we do not have the context....

Ok, but one thing is for certain: If you know who Kingston Trio is, and can sing along, you are approaching geezer territory. I should know...

[Ghost Bear]

I have a much higher confidence level in your persuasive abilities and ultimate influence.

Stating the simple rules of the game isn't being persuasive, it's just being honest.

I'm just a goof with a keyboard, what influence can I have?   

[LonestarDream]

A president that is buddies with Czar Putin isn't exaclty a spring picnic either.

This element of the election has been tough to talk about.  Reagan was reviled for missile defense, because it was thought he would use the defense to start a nuke war with The Soviet Union.

So the obvious answer was the 'Nuclear Freeze' movement and Ted Kennedy's consorting with the Russians.

Instead of a nuclear war, missile defense brought down the Soviet economy as they tried in vain to keep up.

I see the Donald's carrot and stick approach with Putin through the lens of our enemies and deterrence. 

IF I am Putin, China, Iran or Turkey my actions have fewer consequences when facing Hillary/Merkel  than a strong US/UK alliance. 

[don-o]

That is a tired argument.  No matter how you flower up the "lesser of two evils" argument, it comes out the same.  There is a matter of degree where that argument can morally work.  All humans are flawed.  Then there is a point where both cross over the line of acceptable.  That's when you make a stand and say neither.   

Too much to untangle at once. Please clarify the line you are talking about crossing.



 

[don-o]

   A Christian does not choose evil means and the ends do not justify the means.  Trump is a walking wrecking ball with very thin skin.  To give him the power of the Presidency would be a moral evil in and of itself.   

This is simply throwing prudence out the window. Do you equate having a thin skin with immorality?

It is not. It is a character flaw, the common lot of the children of Adam.

Should you choose to vote 3rd party, what can be known of that ones character flaws? Hadn't you better be finding out? Ref: JFK.

I do not understand with you mean by evil mens and ends. Please clarify.

 

[don-o]

All effort to paint Trump as a moral choice or a benign choice takes willful blindness.

Who is doing that?

I will not cover my eyes or deny what I see.  I will not be party to handing him power.  The consequences will be on those who choose either.  Let it be by their hands and not mine.  I will not choose between them.  That way my conscience is clear.

Will you at least consider that your non-participation in a binary choice  assists the worse, HRC, to power?

[Mrs Don-o]

Sometimes there's just no lesser of two evils.

@guitar4jesus @don-o  @goodwithagun   @roamer_1 @lonestar dream

I can see what you're saying: like do you want to be shot, beheaded or hung?

However, at present (this opinion may change) I see Trump, not as a candidate with acceptable qualities, but as a big ol' gnarly log I can roll into the legs of Hillary Rodham Clinton.  No more and no less.  I don't want hm to do anything but stop HRC, and stop her real hard.  After that, he can drop dead the next day for all I care.

(I do not, of course, mean that in a death-dealing way. I just mean I want for him what I want for my own self, a timely and repentant death, when the Lord wills. Which I hope will be ---  sigh --- timely.)

Meanwhile, A big ol' stupid log we can roll into HRC's legs.  We've got it.  Let's use it.

Check with me in 15 minutes and see if I still believe this.  I find the political weather so bizarre (grapefruit-sized  hailstones followed by a toothy sharknado) as to be quite unpredictable.  It would be dark humor if it didn't have this nightmarish "gosh, it's almost real" quality.....

[guitar4jesus]

Check with me in 15 minutes and see if I still believe this.  I find the political weather so bizarre (grapefruit-sized  hailstones followed by a toothy sharknado) as to be quite unpredictable.  It would be dark humor if it didn't have this nightmarish "gosh, it's almost real" quality.....

Yeah, that's where I've been living this year!

[don-o]

I guess my question is this: Using Weavers ideas is there a line beyond which we do not cross a point beyond a lesser evil we still don't support. In politics is there such a thing as beyond the pale and how do we determine where that is?

Quick reply - I think the first order of business is to  get good / evil (morality) and better / worse (prudence) clear and to be sure on what goes into which bucket. I'm not sure I have made that point clearly enough; but shall try to do so.

After I attend to some business in the world, involving my prudence.

[geronl]

She also gets a vote if a Conservative uses their vote elsewhere...

Trump is a statist

[LonestarDream]

Trump is a statist

Considering the involvement of Pence and Gingrich , no where near the level of Hillary/Huma.

We should not comfort ourselves otherwise.  Despite his flaws, would we really have been better off with 8 years of Gore over Bush?

[geronl]

Considering the involvement of Pence and Gingrich , no where near the level of Hillary/Huma.

We should not comfort ourselves otherwise.  Despite his flaws, would we really have been better off with 8 years of Gore over Bush?

Pence and Gingrich aren't going to change Trump. Trump is completely and morally unacceptable as a human being much less a candidate.

[INVAR]

Will you at least consider that your non-participation in a binary choice  assists the worse, HRC, to power?

We are not limited to a "binary choice" despite what "conventional wisdom" insists.  We can write in a candidate of our choice, we can vote third party.

If you deem that action 'non-participation', oh well.  The fact remains the amount of fraud and corruption now institutionalized has already rendered the idea of an honest election, utterly laughable to anyone looking at reality.  Cook County went national in 2012 - you have seen your last "legitimate" national election.  "Rigged" does not even begin to come close to what has happened under your nose.  But go ahead and pretend otherwise if that feels more comfortable to you.  95% of the population shares that comfort.

I do not.

Because if this 'choice' truly is 'limited' to a binary - I view it as a choice of being burned alive at the stake or boiled alive in oil. 

I choose neither and will flee with my life intact - having not surrendered it under a false pretense.  Of course there are those who tell me that if I refuse to choose which death I want - then it will be made for me, confirming the fact that death is inevitable and the idea of 'choice' is ridiculous because the end result is the same.

Of course if one insists the choice will be made for us -  that confirms the fact that we are not free,  our hands are bound and the imposition of stake or oil is a foregone conclusion that will be administered whether we want it or not.  illustrating that we exist in a despotic tyranny that most are comfortable with as long as their heads are not on the chopping block.

Stake or oil - Trump or Hillary. 

I choose neither.

Because I choose neither, my principles and I will survive longer than the rest who submit to the fate others have prepared to administer.