Author Topic: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects  (Read 2812 times)

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Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
Monday, July 11, 2016 11:00 AM

By: Theodore Bunker

Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings said open carry gun laws made it hard for police to identify who was a suspect and who wasn't during Thursday's deadly sniper attack.

"That is one of the real issues with the gun right issues that we face, that in the middle of a firefight, it's hard to pick out the good guys and the bad guys," he said on the CBS News' "Face the Nation" program.

"Common sense would tell you you don't know where the gunfire is coming from, there were individuals that ran across the gunfire . . . So it sure took our eye off the ball for a moment."

The New York Times reported that as many as 30 demonstrators in the area when the attack occurred were legally carrying military-style rifles.

"When you have gunfire going on, you usually go with the person that's got a gun," he continued. "Our police grabbed some of those individuals, took them to police headquarters, and worked it out and figured out they were not the shooters."

Mark Hughes is one of those who was falsely identified as a suspect.

His picture was circulated on Twitter by Dallas police late Thursday, before it became clear that only one shooter was involved, Micah Johnson. As a strong supporter of Second Amendments rights with a license to open carry, Hughes brought his rifle to the protest march.

Upon hearing he was a person of interest, he gave his rifle to the police, was taken in and interrogated, before being released.

"I just got out of the interrogation room for about 30 minutes with police officers lying, saying they had video of me shooting, which is a lie," Hughes said live on CBS 11 News afterward. "That they have witnesses saying I shot a gun, which is a lie. I mean, at the end of the day, the system is trying to get me."

"They have received thousands of death threats already," said Hughes' attorney Corwyn Davis during a press conference Friday, The Washington Post reports. "Unfortunately, there was a lot of negligence with that picture."
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2016, 03:40:38 pm »
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2016, 03:41:56 pm »
He's right.  In a situation like that, where cops can't identify where shots are coming from, everybody carrying a gun is a suspect.

I'm a CCL holder, and open carry is nuts.  In a hostile environment, open carriers will be the first the perp takes out.
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Offline Mom MD

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2016, 04:03:01 pm »
He's right.  In a situation like that, where cops can't identify where shots are coming from, everybody carrying a gun is a suspect.

I'm a CCL holder, and open carry is nuts.  In a hostile environment, open carriers will be the first the perp takes out.
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Im not a fan of open carry either.  It draws too much attention and may get you into confrontations that would be otherwise avoided. And God forbid if you do need your weapon, you have lost the element of surprise

That being said, it is a tribute to the Dallas Police that this gentlemen made it out of the situation unscathed.  They were being ambushed but had the restraint and presence of mind to realize he was not a threat.  He is one lucky guy....
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Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2016, 04:17:40 pm »
yeah and millions of people driving blue dodge trucks 'make it difficult to identify the perps' when the crime was committed using a blue dodge truck- What the hell is this mayor's point? That it's ok to VIOLATE our second amendment rights just to 'make it easier' for the police to 'identify perps'? I mean what the hell? It's almost as asinine as saying "People who openly smoke made it difficult to identify the perp because the perp was a smoker- therefore, we must ban all smoking so that when perps who 'break the law' by smoking commit crimes. we can quickly identify them"- Really?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2016, 04:23:27 pm »
yeah and millions of people driving blue dodge trucks 'make it difficult to identify the perps' when the crime was committed using a blue dodge truck- What the hell is this mayor's point? That it's ok to VIOLATE our second amendment rights just to 'make it easier' for the police to 'identify perps'? I mean what the hell? It's almost as asinine as saying "People who openly smoke made it difficult to identify the perp because the perp was a smoker- therefore, we must ban all smoking so that when perps who 'break the law' by smoking commit crimes. we can quickly identify them"- Really?

No, he's acknowledging the truth.  Those open carrying on Thursday were damned lucky they weren't shot by somebody.

The 2nd amendment allows for regulation and few states allow open carry.  I happen to think open carriers who walk around with long guns have a deficiency between their legs they're trying to compensate for.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2016, 04:24:40 pm »
yeah and millions of people driving blue dodge trucks 'make it difficult to identify the perps' when the crime was committed using a blue dodge truck- What the hell is this mayor's point? That it's ok to VIOLATE our second amendment rights just to 'make it easier' for the police to 'identify perps'? I mean what the hell? It's almost as asinine as saying "People who openly smoke made it difficult to identify the perp because the perp was a smoker- therefore, we must ban all smoking so that when perps who 'break the law' by smoking commit crimes. we can quickly identify them"- Really?

I'm OK with people carrying as they wish. Open carry may not always be appropriate but that's not up to me. Open carry has never been illegal here in Michigan and I've never seen a situation where openly armed people have been targeted for harrassment or shooting other than by overzealous police and lefty bedwetters.

I'm pro choice- Open or concealed

Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2016, 04:32:16 pm »

Im not a fan of open carry either.  It draws too much attention and may get you into confrontations that would be otherwise avoided. And God forbid if you do need your weapon, you have lost the element of surprise

Millions upon millions of people have been open carrying for many many decades with absolutely zero issues-  and those that do carry are far more likely to be able to stop crimes- there are reports all over the country where crimes have been stopped because of citizens who went above and beyond who were openly carrying- but you will be hard pressed to find reports where 'confrontations happened simply because people were openly carrying'- We've lived with guns and open carry for hundreds of years in this country, and it's just untrue that there has been a rash of deadly confrontations simply because =people carry openly - and if anything- it's helped prevent numerous mass shootings, numerous crimes-

The problem has never been armed law abiding citizens- it's always been the law breakers who are the problem- and I';ll tell you- a criminal walking into a bank or store, or wherever, and seeing other people in their carrying guns openly will be far less likely to start something  they know they can't finish- Criminals are cowards- they spend lots of time finding places where THEY will be safe while they murder innocent unarmed civilians

Had the French citizens been armed when the terrorists opened fire on those crowds like they did- those terrorists would not gave gotten very far- and honestly- had nothing happened that day- no terrorists- all those armed French citizens would have simply enjoyed their concerts- enjoyed their soccer games, enjoyed shopping etc- and everyone would have gone home that night safe and sound just like usual- again- Better to have and not need than to need and not have-

You know where gang bangers set up shop mostly? Yup- in cities and neighborhoods that have the strictest gun laws- in places where citizens don't have the right, or are several restricted when owning guns-

The old saying still applies today- better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it- Even If it means being misidentified by police- Had guards in the schools and workplaces been allowed to open carry- you can bet that the mass murders would have been far less devastating


Offline thackney

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2016, 04:39:51 pm »
The 2nd amendment allows for regulation and few states allow open carry. 

Few?  As in 45 out of 50?




http://www.opencarry.org/maps/map-open-carry-of-a-properly-holstered-loaded-handgun/
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Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2016, 04:41:28 pm »
No, he's acknowledging the truth.  Those open carrying on Thursday were damned lucky they weren't shot by somebody.

 I happen to think open carriers who walk around with long guns have a deficiency between their legs they're trying to compensate for.

There is a risk in open carry- but that should NOT make it illegal to do- There is a risk in people driving blue dodge trucks when some perp commits a crime in a blue dodge truck- it would be asinine to baN blue dodge trucks simply because someone might be at risk whenever a perp decides to use a blue dodge truck in their crimes-

You wouldn't be thinking that about them if you were sitting in a cafe unarmed yourself and some lunatic came in guns blazing and there you sat totally helpless- You'd be dame3nde grateful that Camoens was armed and able to stop the lunatic before they shot you or someone else- Look through the news- there are many instances where armed citizens HAVE stopped crimes by using force- and a large number of crimes never happened because people were ifnact armed- so your petty insult about their anatomy not withstanding- I'm damn glad there are people who walk around armed- You are being protected even when nothing happens but could have happened had perps seen that noone was armed- Cowardly criminals usually don't target well armed society- they target unarmed neighborhoods where the citizens think guns are icky

Offline sinkspur

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Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 05:21:13 pm »
you might think it's nuts- but you'll never realize just how many times you or those you know have actually been protected by guns deterring crimes- then numbers are staggering - and i n states where open carry is allowed- crimes go down in most cases- in florida when the rapes were occurring back in the 70's i believe it was- women began arming themselves and the rapes stopped- Criminals are idiots usually- cowards- but not idiots- they hit where people can't hit back- they hit where people think guns are icky-

" Research conducted by Professors James Wright and Peter Rossi,6 for a landmark study funded by the U.S. Department of Justice, points to the armed citizen as possibly the most effective deterrent to crime in the nation. Wright and Rossi questioned over 1,800 felons serving time in prisons across the nation and found:

    81% agreed the "smart criminal" will try to find out if a potential victim is armed.
    74% felt that burglars avoided occupied dwellings for fear of being shot.
    80% of "handgun predators" had encountered armed citizens.
    40% did not commit a specific crime for fear that the victim was armed.
    34% of "handgun predators" were scared off or shot at by armed victims.
    57% felt that the typical criminal feared being shot by citizens more than he feared being shot by police.

Professor Kleck estimates that annually 1,500-2,800 felons are legally killed in "excusable self-defense" or "justifiable" shootings by civilians, and 8,000-16,000 criminals are wounded. "

http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm

"Based on his extensive independent survey research, Kleck estimates that each year Americans use guns for protection from criminals more than 2.5 million times annually." (From above link)

That is an estimated 2.5 million lives either saved or escaping serious harm because a civilian was armed and able ot defend themselves- and who knows how many crimes were actually deterred because a potential criminal saw that someone was armed and decided not to risk trying to commit the crime? In  towns all across the US where citizens are armed- crimes are way down- that's not coincidence- thats' a direct result- as i said- criminals may be cowards, but they aren't stupid usually-

of that 2.5 million estimate- how many potential 'collateral casualties' were prevented as well as the citizens prevented potential mass shootings or multiple murders?? A couple of million?


Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 05:22:26 pm »
 MYTH 9: "A person in a public place with a gun is looking for trouble."

Gun prohibitionists use this myth to oppose legislative proposals to allow law-abiding citizens to obtain permits to carry concealed firear ms. In spite of this opposition, numerous states have adopted favorable concealed carry laws over the past few years. In each case, anti-gun activists and politicians predicted that allowing law-abiding people to carry firearms would result in more deaths and injuries as people would resort to gunfire to settle minor disputes. Shoot-outs over fender-benders and Wild-West lawlessness were predicted in an effort to stir up public fear of reasonable laws.

This tactic--seeking to frighten people into supporting desired positions--is employed more and more frequently by gun prohibitionists. Prof. Gary Kleck explains the reasoning thusly: "Battered by a decade of research contradicting the central factual premises underlying gun control, advocates have a pparently decided to fight more exclusively on an emotional battlefield, where one terrorizes one's targets into submission rather than honestly persuading them with credible evidence."13

When the concealed carry laws were passed and put into pract ice, the result was completely different from the hysterical claims of the gun prohibitionists. In Florida, since the concealed carry law was changed in 1987, the homicide rate has dropped 21%, while the national rate has risen 12%. Across the nation, sta tes with favorable concealed carry laws have a 33% lower homicide rate overall and 37% lower robbery rate than states that allow little or no concealed carry.

Gun prohibitionists have also acted to penalize and discourage gun ownership by imposing mandatory prison terms on persons carrying or possessing firearms without a license or permit, a license or permit they have also made impossible or very difficult to obtain. Massachusetts' Bartley-Fox Law and New York's Koch-Carey Law are premier exampl es of this "gun control" strategy. Such legislation is detrimental only to peaceful citizens, not to criminals.

By the terms of such a mandatory or increased sentence proposal, the unlicensed carrying of a firearm--no matter how innocent the circum stances--is penalized by a six-to-twelve month jail sentence. It is imposed on otherwise law-abiding citizens although in many areas it is virtually impossible for persons to obtain a carry permit. It is easy to see circumstances in which an otherwise law -abiding person would run afoul of this law: fear of crime, arbitrary denial of authorization, red-tape delay in obtaining official permission to carry a firearm, or misunderstanding of the numerous and vague laws governing the transportation of firearms.

The potential for unknowingly or unwittingly committing a technical violation of a licensing law is enormous. Myriad legal definitions of "carrying" vary from state to state and city to city, including most transportation of firearms--accessible o r not, loaded or not, in a trunk or case. And out-of-state travelers are exceedingly vulnerable because of these various definitions.

One need only examine the first persons arrested under the Massachusetts and New York City "mandatory penalty" law s for proof that such laws are misdirected: an elderly woman passing out religious pamphlets in a dangerous section of Boston and an Ohio truck driver coming to the aid of a woman apparently being kidnapped in New York City.

In New York City--prior to the enactment of the Koch-Carey mandatory sentence for possession law--the bureaucratic logjam in the licensing division, combined with a soaring crime rate, forced law-abiding citizens to obtain guns illegally for self-protection. In effect, citizens admitted that they would rather risk a mandatory penalty for illegally owning a firearm than risk their lives and property at the hands of New York's violent, uncontrolled criminals. Honest citizens feared the streets more than the courtrooms.

By contrast, the city's criminal element faces no similar threat of punishment. A report carried in the March 1, 1984, issue of the New York Times says it all: "Conviction on felony charges is rare. Because of plea-bargaining, the vast majority of those arrested on felony charges are tried on lesser, misdemeanor charges." In one year, according to the Times, there were 106,171 felony arrests in New York City, but only 25,987 cases received felony indictments and only 20,641 resulted in convictions, with impr isonment a rarity. This condition persists, the New York Times reported again on June 23, 1991: in 1990 felony indictments were resolved by plea bargains in over 83% of cases. Only 5.7% of cases ended with a trial verdict, with only 3.8% ending in convict ion. Not surprisingly, with just 3% of the nation's population, in 1992 New York City accounted for 12% of the nation's homicides.

In championing New York's tough Koch-Carey Law, then Mayor Ed Koch said contemptuously of gun owners, "Nice guys who own guns aren't nice guys." No such rancor was expressed about the city's revolving-door criminal justice system where the chances of hardened criminals being arrested on felony charges are one in one hundred. Later, the Police Foundation study of New Yor k's Koch- Carey Law found that it failed to reduce the number of guns on the street and did not reduce gun use in rape, robbery or assault.

Such legislation invites police to routinely stop and frisk people randomly on the street on suspicion of fi rearms possession. In fact, the Police Foundation has called for the random use of metal detectors on the streets to apprehend people carrying firearms without authorization. In disregarding the constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy and against unr easonable searches and seizures, police would be empowered under the Police Foundation's blueprint for disarmament to "systematically stop a certain percentage of people on the streets... in business neighborhoods and run the detectors by them, just as yo u do at the airport. If the detectors produce some noise then that might establish probable cause for a search."

While admitting that such "police state" tactics would require "methods... that liberals instinctively dislike," government researchers James Q. Wilson and Mark H. Moore called for more aggressive police patrolling in public places, saying: "To inhibit the carrying of handguns, the police should become more aggressive in stopping suspicious people and, where they have reasonable grounds for their suspicions, frisking (i.e. patting down) those stopped to obtain guns. Hand-held magnetometers, of the sort used by airport security guards, might make the street frisks easier and less obtrusive. All this can be done without changing the law." (The Washington Post, April 1, 1981) Note, they said "people," not criminals.

    13 Kleck, "Reasons for Skepticism on the Results from a New Poll on: The Incidence of Gun Violence Among Young People," The Public Perspective, Sept./Oct. 1993.

http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm

geronl

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 05:27:13 pm »
Pulling over all those white men driving white vans in the DC sniper case sure helped a lot. lol

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2016, 05:28:32 pm »
Thanks for the correction.  I still think it's nuts.

That image is about handguns, not long guns. Open carry of rifles has always been legal in places like Texas.

geronl

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2016, 05:30:01 pm »
He's right.  In a situation like that, where cops can't identify where shots are coming from, everybody carrying a gun is a suspect.

I'm a CCL holder, and open carry is nuts.  In a hostile environment, open carriers will be the first the perp takes out.

Open carry of rifles has ALWAYS been legal. No permit is required.


Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2016, 05:31:30 pm »
In Detroit muggers now make victims strip to make sure they aren't armed.

Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2016, 05:33:53 pm »
The tactic of the anti-gun left is to say "Open carry will result in police shooting innocent people more often- therefore open carry is dangerous and irresponsible and shouldn't be allowed' but the Fact is that open carry and CC have both contributed to much lower crime rates, and have thus reduced the number of times police have to respond to calls of crimes, and society as a result is a much safer with fewer deaths, not more, as the left would have you believe-

Very very rarely does an officer shoot an innocent armed civilian in tense situations where mass shooting occur and where armed civilians act to try to stop the carnage- The chance of an innocent civilian being killed is so low that it makes absolutely no sense to ban open carry because 'someone might be mistaken for the criminal and shot' when the fact is that soi many more crimes and potential deaths and rapes etc are prevented by armed citizens each year- The ratio of 'police accidentally mistaking an innocent armed citizen for the criminal and shooting them" to "Armed citizens preventing serious crimes every day in this country" is outrageously disproportionate

We 'may' (and it's a big maybe), IF we look really hard- find a small handful of cases where police accidentally shoot an armed innocent civilian in a mass shooting situation- whereas we can't point ot millions of times that armed civilians have stopped violent crimes each year

Offline thackney

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2016, 05:48:52 pm »
Thanks for the correction.  I still think it's nuts.

In most situations, I agree.

But when the rioters are coming down the street, it shouldn't be illegal for store owners to visibly protect their property.  In that situation, the visible firearm likely saves lives, rather than waiting for the attack to pull out the concealed weapon.

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Offline bob434

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2016, 05:49:38 pm »


I'm a CCL holder, and open carry is nuts.  In a hostile environment, open carriers will be the first the perp takes out.

I happen to think open carriers who walk around with long guns have a deficiency between their legs they're trying to compensate for.

Don't mean to belabor the issue- but these points you made needs to be addressed further

Where are your statistics that show perps target armed civilians first in mass shootings or hostile environments? or for that matter where police mistake armed citizens for the perps and shoot them by accident?

The fact is, that even IF they always did this- the whole point is to have people armed so that the perps WILL be targeted to stop them, and it's a good thing that the perps fire at armed civilians instead of unarmed civilians, because the armed civilians are armed for this very purpose- to stop criminals IF they can- which they have done millions of times a year

The whole point of being armed in the first place, by law abiding people, is to be able, because they are armed, to come ot the defense of those in danger if or when the need should arise- to state that the armed citizen 'might be shot or targeted' and 'therefore the people should not be allowed to carry openly' misses the whole point of being armed in the first place- those who arm themselves KNOW that there is a VERY VERY small chance they might be in danger someday- but they are willing to take that risk for the sake of their fellow human beings- and are willing ot accept this risk because they know some peopel don't liek guns but may someday need protection

So honestly, it was a bit mean spirited  to insinuate that these people have small anatomy when they have many many times shown that they infact have a ton of guts and have prote4cted their fellow civilians or themselves and their families millions of times a year-

They know there may be a very very small chance they would be in danger- but they are willing to take that chance for us- and they are willing to take that chance because they know the police can't always be there in time to save all those people who don't like guns and can't protect themselves and others around them
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 05:51:01 pm by bob434 »

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2016, 05:52:18 pm »
But if this were a Syrian or Somali that was brought into the country under Obama's willy nilly refugee program with little to no background check, and committed a heinous terrorist act, it'd be racist to say that importing that kind of person makes the problem more difficult for law enforcement to sort out the good and bad guys.

The mayor is using dead bodies as an opportunity to push and agenda.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 05:52:47 pm by Free Vulcan »
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geronl

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2016, 05:53:09 pm »
Just to point out again that this was about rifles and rifles have always been open carry. Always.

Offline thackney

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 05:59:40 pm »
That image is about handguns, not long guns. Open carry of rifles has always been legal in places like Texas.

Illegal in some locations.  From a gun-grabber site:

Three states (California, Florida, and Illinois) and the District of Columbia prohibit the carrying of any firearm openly in public.  Another two states (New York and South Carolina) prohibit the open carrying of a handgun, but not a long gun, and another three states (Massachusetts, Minnesota, and New Jersey) prohibit the open carrying of a long gun, but not a handgun. In the remaining states, the open carrying of firearms is generally allowed, although some states require the person to first obtain a permit or license.

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/firearms-in-public-places/open-carrying/
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Offline thackney

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 06:06:48 pm »
Just to point out again that this was about rifles and rifles have always been open carry. Always.

I do not believe open carry of handguns would have made a difference in this case.  I'm not sure that all of those open carrying in the Dallas police shooting were only carrying long guns.
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Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Dallas Mayor: Open Carry Made It Difficult to Identify Suspects
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2016, 06:54:06 pm »
He's right.  In a situation like that, where cops can't identify where shots are coming from, everybody carrying a gun is a suspect.

I'm a CCL holder, and open carry is nuts.  In a hostile environment, open carriers will be the first the perp takes out.

CCL holder here as well, and I agree.   I am for legal open carry but doing it for an "in your face"  reasons like wearing a AR-15 on a single point sling as you enter a Starbucks, or in a protest such as this is just plain stupid and careless.   If people you may encounter can become alarmed because of you displaying your rifle or gun, then get a clue - and don't do it. It is NOT responsible gun ownership, and it could in the case of this protest caused police or even a CCL holder to kill you. None of which can see the halo over your head, especially as bullets are raining down from someplace. 

Don't cause undue alarm among the general public - open carry rule #1. 
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