Author Topic: Trump Shows His Ignorant Side And Takes A Dump On 40 Years Of Military Excellence  (Read 10700 times)

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Online Smokin Joe

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This is exactly right. Our soldiers win everything they are asked to win, but at the strategic level our politicians have no idea what they are doing...and frequently squander the hard won fight that our troops have waged.
No argument there, but I would have to add the Media in with the politicians. When our forces decisively beat back the simultaneous attacks on every provincial capital in South Vietnam during TET in '68, effectively destroying the Viet Cong, Walter Cronkite was on the tube telling us how the war could never be won. Hue City was a tough nut, but the ROE were part of that. Eventually, that, too was cleared, only to find the 3000 or so civilians slaughtered there--which only should have bolstered our resolve that what we were fighting against needed to be defeated. But America had already heard the words 'could not be won' stated with Cronkite's full gravitas, and the tube was covering the hippies and anti-war protesters every night (making them seem to be present in greater numbers and more universally distributed--a Delphi technique, done nationwide--than they actually were).
And that's the way it was...

The defeatist pap that turned even stellar military victories into 'defeat'.

Had the Democrats not pulled the support for the ARVNs late in the war, when NVA columns were overrunning the South, air and artillery would have been more effective than at any time during the conflict against those massed troops. Instead, we got evacuation from the Embassy roof, and sinking boats full of desperate refugees.

We still have the same enemy in America, we used to call them 'The New Left', only they are not so new any more. They have invaded the universities, the media, the arts, and have propagandized generations through alleged entertainment, books, movies, television, and day to day spin on events. We can generally spot them by their hypocritical stances on issues, their proclivity for demanding from others what they themselves will not do, and their inclinations toward Communism. So pervasive has the mindset become, we don't call it Communism, but Liberalism, because, after all, we were informed that "Communism is dead." Never before has if flourished so, and right here at home.

The only defense against that is the staunch support of our own Constitution, the principles and values of personal Liberty there enshrined, the concept of God-given fundamental and natural Rights, and of limited governmental power to do good or evil because all power will be used at some point to corrupt ends. Therein lies the fundamental premise of Conservatism, that the just powers of any Government are derived from the consent of the governed, but that should be an informed consent, one based on truth and not propaganda. When we demand any less than the truth from those we hire to serve us, we undermine the fundamental basis of our government, and of our Liberty. Note that in the expression "Truth, Justice, and the American Way, Truth comes first.

Without it, the other two cannot exist, at least, not as intended.

We won: Gulf War 1, the 'actions' in Panama and Grenada, we defeated Saddam Hussein in Gulf War 2, and removed him from power, permanently. We stopped any WMD programs Saddam had, including the British interdiction of the components of the mega cannon to shell Israel and the demise of the designer.

That those victories have been squandered by the actions of the politicians since then is not the fault of the military, nor necessarily the American people, but the fault of those who removed the power from the Congress to declare war, and those who lied in the press about the nature of that war and the factors surrounding it, right down to the casus belli. It is difficult, if not impossible for Americans to make informed decisions about their servants in Government with faulty or falsified information, and that has been the media's stock in trade for the past fifty (plus) years. The same media which lost the war in Southeast Asia, partly in their lust to emplace a democrat in the office of POTUS, has compared the current action in the Gulf region with that same war, and done everything they can to make that comparison a reality, to be able to tout the "failure" of another Republican President for whom they reserved unprecedented levels of hatred and vitriol, the whole while they do everything in their power to promote decisions which have potential to reduce combat effectiveness of our fighting forces.

If you want an enemy, there it is.

In the meantime, I must commend you on your ability to get so many to write so much in response to so little, myself included.

Given the metric of honesty, of using the tactics the media has (noted above), of supporting positions which fly in the face of Constitutional limitations on government, of questionable values, there is no presumptive candidate from either major party I can support. 

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Some of you REALLY need to study some military history.

That was a tactical level win...turned into a geo-strategic failure through shortsighted strategic decisions made by politicians over the ensuing 20 years. Trump cast no aspersions on our soldiers...and try as you will you can't effectively twist his words into meaning that...he cast aspersions on the dumba$$ strategic choices made by our leaders which squandered the blood, sweat and tears given by our troops.

Unlike your absurd linkage to early Sumeria, the Gulf war is directly linked to our current strategic efforts in that region...and its outcome was diluted and degraded by ensuing geo-strategic error that turned tactical victory into strategic morass. If you can't see the connections, you are not looking hard enough because they are not hidden or obscure. The connections are direct, relevant and even ongoing.
The stated objective of Gulf War 1 was the eviction of Iraqi forces from Kuwait, and the return of the rightful government to power. The objective of the war did not include the invasion of Iraq, nor the removal of Saddam Hussein from power. Perhaps the objectives should have been different, but they were not, and they were achieved.

That's a 'win', and as lopsided as the casualty counts were, it was still a war--we even call it a "War", when we refer to it. That there was a "Gulf War II" only indicates they didn't fully get the message the first time. We had a World War II also, but that doesn't mean we lost the first one.

I will not disagree the politicians have squandered military victories and continue to do so. That isn't the fault of the Military. Ultimately, it is on the voters for choosing community organizers for CIC, or a Congress that refuses to adequately fund those whom it has made agreements with. Behind that, there is the Media beating the drum, distorting the entire picture.

The entire region has changed hands many many times since the Sumerians, so the point is valid. It is a part of the earth which has been a bone of contention throughout recorded history. A multitude of wars have been fought there, and most of those governments no longer exist. That does not mean they lost their particular war. Nor does it mean that there will be a conflict there (until Armageddon) which will end all conflict in the region. No war is any more definitive than the will of the people to maintain the results.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Why pretend these things are mutually exclusive? They are not, as we did put limitations on their military strength and ability to use forces outside their boundaries.

Geo-strategically, the Marshall plan was brilliant and cemented the value of our military victory in WWII. Which really highlights our current geo-strategic failures in the Middle East. We won tough fights with some great soldiering, but lacked the strategic and geo-political strategy/will to turn them into lasting security. Are you actually arguing that we have? Trump is not criticizing those who fought...on the contrary he continuously praises them. What he is criticizing is the leadership that has led us into strategic defeat after our military successes. We won repeated victories on the ground, and yet our position in the Middle East is now worse than it was after 1991...that is the geo-strategic "losing" he is referring to.
But you left out the why of that rebuilding. We did it to keep West Germany and Japan out of the Communist sphere of influence. We had a strategy, and this was at the beginning of the Cold War. Now that the Communists run the White House and roughly half the Congress, and the MSM, I'd say we aren't doing so well.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Victoria33

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This is the most absurd, outrageous thing you've ever posted on this site.  And the competition from you is legion.  Your attempts to justify Trump's denigration of those is shameful.  Gonna put you on ignore for a while until you come to your goddamned senses!

I put said poster on ignore shortly after I got here.  In my opinion, his Trump hang-up nonsense posts do not warrant a reply. 

Online Hoodat

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Quite the opposite, Trump honored the men who fought...

Bullshit.  From the state of at GOP debate, I watched with my own eyes and listened to Donald Trump trash the entirety of the Iraq war from beginning to end.  And in doing so, he trashed the sacrifice of several hundred thousand US Servicemen and women.

He also lied about his own personal stance at the start of the war, all for his own political expediency.  Frankly, it sickened me beyond measure to hear a GOP candidate recite the stale old Democrat talking points on the Iraq war in front of a national audience.  And for that alone, Donald Trump can go to hell.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline OldSaltUSN

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As a Marine Veteran with combat experience I take extreme offense at your accusation I am trashing US military and veterans. Knock that crap off now. The issue is and always has been America winning wars since Vietnam. Not a dam thing about our fighting men  and women.

This need to twist things so you can attack Trump has long passed beyond the sanity zone. The Politicians have lost the wars not the fighters. Its reality, Vietnam is Communist.  South Korea is still a hot zone, Communism is winning in America, ISIS owns much of the Mideast, etc. The lists people have put up were not wars. They were either specific battles or as the PC crowd calls them police actions.

None of this is disparaging on the troops and you dam well knew that before you went off on me. Its about the failed leadership not letting us win.

I don't know of anyone in my service experience that brags about their "combat experience".
They don't need to defend themselves by bragging on their service, and I never have, either.

Pardon me if I don't really believe your bona fides.  You got anything else?


EDIT

Oh my gosh, I let him take me off subject, with of course, yet another ad hominem argument.

  • Mechanicos original trashed the messenger, while ignoring the basic substance of the outrage by Trump, to wit:
    Quote
    "Why do you people pay any attention to anything put out by Eric Erickson? Really hes a paid tool of the Establishment who is not your friend. "
  • I followed by calling him on his logical fallacy, and accurately compared it to standard Alinsky tactics.  I even complimented him on his performance.  I followed with this challenge:
    Quote
    "Did Trump not say this?  If he did, why don't you care? Do you agree with Trump, Mechanicos?   Are you too, trashing the US Military and American veterans?
  • To which Mechanicos played the martyr, claiming outrage that his status as a heroic, combat veteran Marine had been maligned.   In other words, one  ad hominem , followed by indignation and a second attack, when he's called on the first.

I asked him a question.  Essentially, I questioned his intellectual honesty.  He immediately defends Trump for the indefensible.   I would expect that such a response means that he agrees with Trump, and game him the opportunity to rethink his response, and provide a thoughtful reason that Trump's words were not an attack on the U.S. Military.  All we got in return was a story about how he personally won WWII, Korea, and the battle of Fallujah. /sarc

He never addressed the original question.    I honestly haven't red all six pages of his drivel, but I don't believe WORD ONE this guy says.

The only reason he gets away with his crap is that he's one of 4 of 5 pro-Trump supporters here.  He's immune to rules which other mere mortals must abide.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 04:56:16 am by OldSaltUSN »

Offline OldSaltUSN

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@Maj. Bill Martin @Mesaclone

Appreciate your service, guys.   In our generation, only a small fraction volunteered for military service, and fewer still, rode the tip of the spear. 

Offline OldSaltUSN

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"A battle won with the enemy still operating and running it. That's a loss. Won the battle lost the war. ..."  - Mechanicos

THAT, was superb D.U. and Solon progressive-style-speak.  Those were never the words of a United States Marine.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:11:55 am by OldSaltUSN »

Offline R4 TrumPence

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Quote
The only reason he gets away with his crap is that he's one of 4 of 5 pro-Trump supporters here.  He's immune to rules which other mere mortals must abide.

He has had his share of recent suspensions.  Not for free speech, but for personal insults IIRC?


I am Repub4Bush on FR '02

Offline Henry Noel

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I don't know of anyone in my service experience that brags about their "combat experience".
They don't need to defend themselves by bragging on their service, and I never have, either.

Why, 'tis a gull, a fool, a rogue, that now and then
goes to the wars, to grace himself at his return
into London under the form of a soldier. And such
fellows are perfect in the great commanders' names:
and they will learn you by rote where services were
done; at such and such a sconce, at such a breach,
at such a convoy; who came off bravely, who was
shot, who disgraced, what terms the enemy stood on;
and this they con perfectly in the phrase of war,
which they trick up with new-tuned oaths: and what
a beard of the general's cut and a horrid suit of
the camp will do among foaming bottles and
ale-washed wits, is wonderful to be thought on. But
you must learn to know such slanders of the age, or
else you may be marvellously mistook. —
Shakespeare, Henry V
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Offline OldSaltUSN

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He has had his share of recent suspensions.  Not for free speech, but for personal insults IIRC?

I understand.  I don't criticize the Mods for their work, but simply state, you folks have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending them.  They get special treatment in the same way they got special treatment on FR in mid-2015, simply by claiming to be victims of "#NeverTrump's, or "Cruzers", or the GOP-e, or whoever, as the continue their their mouth.   

I have no problem with free speech.   That's not what he's doing.

Thanks for the courtesy reply.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:16:20 am by OldSaltUSN »

Offline roamer_1

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I've always justified the 2003 Iraq war like this:


 :shrug: Not my business... But it seems to me that it is far easier to kill them in a sandbox than it is to kill them in the unforgiving mountains of Afghanistan. Sadam being a douche and in non-compliance (which he was) was a good 'nuff excuse...

And it worked. That's 1.3-1.5 hundred thousand outta the way by the time we went into those mountains. That sounds like a good move to me, whatever the spin.

Offline Mechanicos

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I don't know of anyone in my service experience that brags about their "combat experience".
They don't need to defend themselves by bragging on their service, and I never have, either.

Pardon me if I don't really believe your bona fides.  You got anything else?


EDIT

Oh my gosh, I let him take me off subject, with of course, yet another ad hominem argument.

  • Mechanicos original trashed the messenger, while ignoring the basic substance of the outrage by Trump, to wit:
  • I followed by calling him on his logical fallacy, and accurately compared it to standard Alinsky tactics.  I even complimented him on his performance.  I followed with this challenge:
  • To which Mechanicos played the martyr, claiming outrage that his status as a heroic, combat veteran Marine had been maligned.   In other words, one  ad hominem , followed by indignation and a second attack, when he's called on the first.

I asked him a question.  Essentially, I questioned his intellectual honesty.  He immediately defends Trump for the indefensible.   I would expect that such a response means that he agrees with Trump, and game him the opportunity to rethink his response, and provide a thoughtful reason that Trump's words were not an attack on the U.S. Military.  All we got in return was a story about how he personally won WWII, Korea, and the battle of Fallujah. /sarc

He never addressed the original question.    I honestly haven't red all six pages of his drivel, but I don't believe WORD ONE this guy says.

The only reason he gets away with his crap is that he's one of 4 of 5 pro-Trump supporters here.  He's immune to rules which other mere mortals must abide.
First, I do not give a dam about your opinion of me. Since you have no substantive points in your arguments all you seem to do is attack the messenger. Nonetheless, being attacked by a person helping Hillary get elected, it means I m on the right side doing the right thing. You crossed a line that may never be recoverable with your crap alleging I am against troops here.
Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

Offline Norm Lenhart

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First, I do not give a dam about your opinion of me. Since you have no substantive points in your arguments all you seem to do is attack the messenger. Nonetheless, being attacked by a person helping Hillary get elected, it means I m on the right side doing the right thing. You crossed a line that may never be recoverable with your crap alleging I am against troops here.

There you go lying again. Most people would be ashamed at being known all across a site as it's most prominent liar, but you just keep repeating the same lies about posters here over and over, reveling in it.

Offline Henry Noel

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:shrug: Not my business... But it seems to me that it is far easier to kill them in a sandbox than it is to kill them in the unforgiving mountains of Afghanistan. Sadam being a douche and in non-compliance (which he was) was a good 'nuff excuse...

And it worked. That's 1.3-1.5 hundred thousand outta the way by the time we went into those mountains. That sounds like a good move to me, whatever the spin.


The way I've always looked at it, somebody's ass had to be kicked, and there was no better candidate than Saddam, who would gleefully have assisted terrorists in attacking the U.S. in whatever capacity he could. The war was one of the best things Bush ever did as President, and I believe it bought us a certain freedom from major terrorist incidents on U.S. soil that persists to this day. It taught terrorist sponsors that the United States could not be relied on to remain passive in the face of large-scale outrages like 911.
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Online Smokin Joe

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First, I do not give a dam about your opinion of me. Since you have no substantive points in your arguments all you seem to do is attack the messenger. Nonetheless, being attacked by a person helping Hillary get elected, it means I m on the right side doing the right thing. You crossed a line that may never be recoverable with your crap alleging I am against troops here.
So, the folks who would not support Trump because they were not needed anyway, are now "helping Hillary get elected"? What absolute dreck. Not me, I'm not helping the butcher of Benghazi, either. I'm just sitting back, eating popcorn, and watching the sh*tstorm from the cheap seats.

Besides, if I don't vote for Trump and that's considered a vote for Hillary, by the same 'logic', by not voting for Hillary, that's a vote for Trump. I'd say those cancel. Run that through that common core math one time.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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The way I've always looked at it, somebody's ass had to be kicked, and there was no better candidate than Saddam, who would gleefully have assisted terrorists in attacking the U.S. in whatever capacity he could. The war was one of the best things Bush ever did as President, and I believe it bought us a certain freedom from major terrorist incidents on U.S. soil that persists to this day. It taught terrorist sponsors that the United States could not be relied on to remain passive in the face of large-scale outrages like 911.
I viewed is as either we fight them there with trained troops, or here with schoolkids, mallrats, and housewives buying groceries. The unfortunate part is that the MSM started calling it 'another Vietnam' right out of the gate, then the Democrats and their minions did all they could to ensure a comparable political outcome (again).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline OldSaltUSN

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Since you have no substantive points in your arguments all you seem to do is attack the messenger.

 :wtf!:

  • Let's see here, when first I engaged Mechanicos, he was using an ad hominem attack against an author who was QUOTING DONALD TRUMP VERBATIM, as if his attack on the author somehow disproved the quotes.  In addition to formally questioning his use of logic, I also asked WHY Mechanicos didn't he care that THE DONALD attacked American active duty and veteran servicemen.
  • Mechanicos reply?  Well, naturally, he made it all about himself.  He's a "victim".  (That's a progressive's specialty, btw.).  He turned the issue of Trump dishonoring EVERY USE MILITARY MAN AND VETERAN into an accusation that I dishonored Mechanicos' supposed awesome "combat" war record.  (After all, what's more important, the honor of EVERY US MILITARY man, or Mechanicos war-hero record?!)
  • I RESTATED THE ORIGINAL argument, focusing again on why Mr Mechnicos attacks truth in form of a direct Trump quote, and by doing so, appears more than willing to accept Trumps dishonoring comment towards America's military (current and past).
  • Mechanicos reply:   I have no sustantive arguments and all I do is attack the messenger.



Au contraire, Mr. Mechanicos, it's the messenger who attacks himself, has no substantive points, is ILLOGICAL in his argumentation, and yet, doesn't even comprehend it.

 :huh?:






:bigsilly:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 06:26:30 am by OldSaltUSN »

Offline Mechanicos

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:wtf!:

  • Let's see here, when first I engaged Mechanicos, he was using an ad hominem attack against an author who was QUOTING DONALD TRUMP VERBATIM, as if his attack on the author somehow disproved the quotes.  In addition to formally questioning his use of logic, I also asked WHY Mechanicos didn't he care that THE DONALD attacked American active duty and veteran servicemen.
  • Mechanicos reply?  Well, naturally, he made it all about himself.  He's a "victim".  (That's a progressive's specialty, btw.).  He turned the issue of Trump dishonoring EVERY USE MILITARY MAN AND VETERAN into an accusation that I dishonored Mechanicos' supposed awesome "combat" war record.  (After all, what's more important, the honor of EVERY US MILITARY man, or Mechanicos war-hero record?!)
  • I RESTATED THE ORIGINAL argument, focusing again on why Mr Mechnicos attacks truth in form of a direct Trump quote, and by doing so, appears more than willing to accept Trumps dishonoring comment towards America's military (current and past).
  • Mechanicos reply:   I have no sustantive arguments and all I do is attack the messenger.



Au contraire, Mr. Mechanicos, it's the messenger who attacks himself, has no substantive points, is ILLOGICAL in his argumentation, and yet, doesn't even comprehend it.

 :huh?:






:bigsilly:
It is you who are being deceptive here. At no Time was " Trump dishonoring EVERY USE MILITARY MAN AND VETERAN."  This is the problem I have with you. The playing fast and loose with what Trump says to fit YOUR agenda.

Trump is very Pro Military and Pro Veteran and you need to back off the making up crap like that.

Even other antis have told you it was about the leadership - not the troops. A legitimate complaint.
Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

Offline RedHead

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It is you who are being deceptive here. At no Time was " Trump dishonoring EVERY USE MILITARY MAN AND VETERAN."  This is the problem I have with you. The playing fast and loose with what Trump says to fit YOUR agenda.

Except for the losers.

Trump is very Pro Military and Pro Veteran and you need to back off the making up crap like that.

Except for former POWs.  He likes those who were not POWs.  He said that.

Even other antis have told you it was about the leadership - not the troops. A legitimate complaint.

So he just hates everyone in the military who are officers and senior NCOs.  Good to know.

Offline Mechanicos

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Except for the losers.

Except for former POWs.  He likes those who were not POWs.  He said that.

So he just hates everyone in the military who are officers and senior NCOs.  Good to know.
What a way to lose all respect for yourself. Leadership is the politicians who lost what we won. To a normal person Troops means the command staff too.

and his POW comments were to and about McCain, But then that would not help your savaging trump agenda would it...
 
Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

Offline Mesaclone

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So much bluster, semantic contortions and hairsplitting in this thread....you'd think the issue here was complex. It is not.

Either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump are going to be our next president. What each of us does going forward until November 8th will determine which of these candidates wins out. Everyone carries the weight of what they do now and going forward...its pointless to recriminate over how we got here. We ARE here, so whatever you do is...in effect...choosing between these two individuals. Nobody else is going to be president...hoping that isn't the case is understandable but utterly pointless.

So we will all pick which of these two it is...either by voting for one of them, or by not voting, or by voting 3rd party. But lets be clear, going forward, anything you do that does not help elect Donald Trump, helps elect Hillary Clinton. From the Dem perspective, the opposite holds true. There is no neutral position here, and there is no 3rd party or non-voting escape from responsibility. The choice is the choice...like it or hate it doesn't matter...because it is irrevocably the only option now available.

On a side note, so many here seem to be clinging to some fiction that a Trump loss will "teach a lesson" to conservatives and Republicans and make them look for a Cruz type candidate next time. That mentality is dangerously false. If Trump loses because conservative Republicans helped Hillary...via 3rd party or non-voting...they will become more adamant in supporting Trump-like candidates going forward...and the dedicated Trump supporters make up a good 30-40 percent of the party, and nobody will get nominated in the future without their support.

First, we cannot afford to teach lessons by allowing 4-8 more years of this wild Socialism and the appointment of 2-4 liberal justices (permanently locking in the liberal majority for a generation). Second, it simply won't work because most in the GOP now understand that choosing a candidate only beloved by the most extreme right 10-15% or so of the party is not a path to victory...a truism that will become more true as time goes by. Our party must become the party of blue collar workers, smaller government, strong national defense, and real borders...we cannot be the party that cares only for Socon issues at the expense of everything else that matters to conservatives. There issues matter, but can only be a part of the GOP platform...not a litmus test and not elevated to the omission of all other conservative concerns.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 04:34:23 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Minarch

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But lets be clear, going forward, anything you do that does not help elect Donald Trump, helps elect Hillary Clinton.

That mentality is dangerously false.

I fixed your post for you by taking out all the unnecessary parts.

Offline Mesaclone

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I fixed your post for you by taking out all the parts I couldn't understand.

I was happy to fix yours as well. Happy 4th.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline txradioguy

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So much bluster, semantic contortions and hairsplitting in this thread....you'd think the issue here was complex. It is not.

Either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump are going to be our next president. What each of us does going forward until November 8th will determine which of these candidates wins out. Everyone carries the weight of what they do now and going forward...its pointless to recriminate over how we got here. We ARE here, so whatever you do is...in effect...choosing between these two individuals. Nobody else is going to be president...hoping that isn't the case is understandable but utterly pointless.

So we will all pick which of these two it is...either by voting for one of them, or by not voting, or by voting 3rd party. But lets be clear, going forward, anything you do that does not help elect Donald Trump, helps elect Hillary Clinton. From the Dem perspective, the opposite holds true. There is no neutral position here, and there is no 3rd party or non-voting escape from responsibility. The choice is the choice...like it or hate it doesn't matter...because it is irrevocably the only option now available.

On a side note, so many here seem to be clinging to some fiction that a Trump loss will "teach a lesson" to conservatives and Republicans and make them look for a Cruz type candidate next time. That mentality is dangerously false. If Trump loses because conservative Republicans helped Hillary...via 3rd party or non-voting...they will become more adamant in supporting Trump-like candidates going forward...and the dedicated Trump supporters make up a good 30-40 percent of the party, and nobody will get nominated in the future without their support.

First, we cannot afford to teach lessons by allowing 4-8 more years of this wild Socialism and the appointment of 2-4 liberal justices (permanently locking in the liberal majority for a generation). Second, it simply won't work because most in the GOP now understand that choosing a candidate only beloved by the most extreme right 10-15% or so of the party is not a path to victory...a truism that will become more true as time goes by. Our party must become the party of blue collar workers, smaller government, strong national defense, and real borders...we cannot be the party that cares only for Socon issues at the expense of everything else that matters to conservatives. There issues matter, but can only be a part of the GOP platform...not a litmus test and not elevated to the omission of all other conservative concerns.

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!