Author Topic: The GOP's Death Wish  (Read 4868 times)

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HAPPY2BME

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The GOP's Death Wish
« on: June 28, 2016, 02:36:34 pm »
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Will the GOP establishment just sit back and do nothing?  The big donors, like the Koch Brothers, may support GOP Senate candidates but not Trump.  Will the large PACs and RNC support Trump in a meaningful way?  Will party leaders endorse and campaign for Trump?  Or will they just sit on their hands doing nothing?  If that happens, and Trump loses, his supporters will correctly assign blame to the GOP establishment for doing nothing, just as the GOP Congress is doing nothing against the Obama excesses.

By Brian C. Joondeph
June 27, 2016

Instead, the Republican Party is hell-bent on turning its good fortune into almost certain defeat – and not just defeat, but wipe-out.  Mass casualties across the Republican ranks.

Does the GOP really have such a death wish?  Sure seems that way.

Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, third in line to the presidency, de facto leader of the Republican Party, said, "House Republicans should not betray their conscience when it comes to backing their party's presumptive presidential nominee Donald Trump."  I presume he is also speaking to convention delegates and voters in general.

How nice that Speaker Ryan has a conscience.  Was his conscience on display when he supported a super-sized budget, more than even the president asked for?  Or when he funded Planned Parenthood, an organization responsible for more deaths than Muslim terrorists, assault weapons, Tea Partiers, Christians, and NRA members combined?  Was his conscience on display when he supported the Iran deal, rewarding a country that chants "Death to America" and publicly hangs gays?  Has he held anyone accountable for Fast and Furious, the IRS targeting Obama's political opponents, American deaths at Benghazi?  Has he defunded Obamacare?  I could go on, but you get the picture.

Instead, Speaker Ryan threatens to sue Donald Trump over his proposed temporary pause in immigration from majority-Muslim, sharia-believing countries.  I don't recall any threats to sue President Obama over unlawful edicts and executive orders.  I agree with Tucker Carlson, who observed, "Ah yes.  Paul Ryan working for the Hillary campaign."

If I didn't know better, I'd say Nancy Pelosi is hiding in Paul Ryan's body.  What would be different if she were speaker of the House rather than Paul Ryan?  Not much.  The House would have the same priorities, and I'm sure Pelosi would also be salivating over the prospect of suing Trump.  Republican voters elected a Republican House and Senate specifically to stop these excesses.  The expectation was that Ryan and McConnell would have a conscience and govern in accordance with their campaign promises, not in the opposite way.

Donald Trump comes along, promising to "Make America Great Again," and now Paul Ryan has a conscience?  Anyone hear Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi telling their constituents to "vote their conscience" at the Democrat convention?  Bernie Sanders's supporters are still out there, and much like Trump supporters, are engaged and enthused.  No, Nancy and Harry are firmly behind their presumed nominee, overlooking her myriad faults and scandals.

Instead of working with their imperfect nominee, making him a better candidate, the #NeverTrumpers at National Review and throughout the establishment and donor class are either withholding support or actively sabotaging his campaign.  Scare tactics from the National Review: "Republicans need to start worrying about losing their majority in the House of Representatives." If scare tactics don't work, be more direct, as Bill Kristol recommended – "So, leaders of the Grand Old Party, dig down deep, summon your courage, steel your nerve…and cut the thread."

How might that play out?  Create a "conscience clause" for the GOP convention "that would allow delegates to vote against the presumptive nominee."  GOP senator Ron Johnson hinted at this scenario on CNN's State of the Union, stating that the Trump nomination "remains reasonably uncertain."  Will Trump and his supporters sit back and say, "Oh well.  We lost" and support the Conscience Club's choice of nominee?  Who might that be?  Romney, Bush, Ryan, Rubio, Kasich?  I suspect that most Trump supporters would rather have a root canal on election day than show up to vote for the establishment candidate after being told their previous vote doesn't matter.

Will the GOP establishment just sit back and do nothing?  The big donors, like the Koch Brothers, may support GOP Senate candidates but not Trump.  Will the large PACs and RNC support Trump in a meaningful way?  Will party leaders endorse and campaign for Trump?  Or will they just sit on their hands doing nothing?  If that happens, and Trump loses, his supporters will correctly assign blame to the GOP establishment for doing nothing, just as the GOP Congress is doing nothing against the Obama excesses.

Either way, this ends badly for the GOP.  Perhaps they will lose both houses of Congress as they did in 2006.  And for similar reasons.  George W. Bush was a big spender, promoting ill conceived and executed wars, No Child Left Behind, a new prescription drug entitlement, auto bailouts, TARP, Harriet Miers, and so on.  Eventually the GOP won back Congress, based on campaign promises they have ignored.

If the will of the GOP voters who supported Trump is thwarted, either actively or passively, by the establishment and donor class, Bill Kristol's advice to the GOP leaders will be taken to heart by GOP voters.  We will summon our courage, steel our nerve…and cut the thread – not to Trump, but instead to the GOP.  Through votes and contributions.  We may follow our consciences and find something better to do on election day than vote for betrayal, even if it means a root canal.

HAPPY2BME

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 02:37:42 pm »
The gopE is history, regardless of what, where, when, and how it happens.

The gopE is toast.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 02:42:30 pm »
Trump supporters are pre-emptively pinning blame for what will be a massive loss on everybody.......but themselves.  They foisted an unpopular candidate on the rest of the party (he received less than 45% of all primary votes and, in competitive primaries, his average was 35%) and he's even more unpopular among the American people.

Only 77% of Republicans support Trump.  Over 90% supported Romney, and he still lost.

The disaster is the fault of the Trumpkins, not the dogs who won't eat this dog food.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 02:50:09 pm »
"We may follow our consciences and find something better to do on election day than vote for betrayal, even if it means a root canal."

Wouldn't that mean a vote for Hillary?

Online GrouchoTex

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 02:52:38 pm »
"Instead of working with their imperfect nominee, making him a better candidate, the #NeverTrumpers at National Review and throughout the establishment and donor class are either withholding support or actively sabotaging his campaign." 

Okay, we are Conservatives, right?

Are we supposed to mold and shape people, like some sort of psychology experiment (like Big Government Liberals do), or, are we supposed to take people at face value, show them facts and allow them to draw their own conclusions?

The article admits that Trump needs to be made into a better candidate.

Trump people are going out of their way to cover up this error in judgement, but doing so by blaming the rest of us.

Again, this is our fault how?

Offline MajorClay

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 10:27:47 pm »
Saw it somewhere else, time for Trump to put up or shut up.

geronl

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 10:32:09 pm »
Trump the barbarian is more acceptable to the GOP establishment than actual conservatives.

Think about it

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 10:54:01 pm »
Trump supporters are pre-emptively pinning blame for what will be a massive loss on everybody.......but themselves.  They foisted an unpopular candidate on the rest of the party (he received less than 45% of all primary votes and, in competitive primaries, his average was 35%) and he's even more unpopular among the American people.

Only 77% of Republicans support Trump.  Over 90% supported Romney, and he still lost.

The disaster is the fault of the Trumpkins, not the dogs who won't eat this dog food.

Illogical to say the least.

This is simple really. If Trump reels in 90%+ of Republicans and loses, than yes...the blame for this loss can be laid at the feet of his supporters in the party. However, if he loses because 10-20% of Republicans voted elsewhere or chose to stay home...than those who did so carry 100% of the blame for putting Hillary in the White House. THEIR votes will be, literally, what decided the election and that's just not a debatable point. Them's the facts, as they say.

It ain't rocket science, no matter how many faux semantics you try to pile on top to avoid your responsibility. If YOU don't support the GOP nominee, you can't blame others for the Dem nominee winning...feel free to argue that Hillary winning was your intention because you thought it best, but don't even TRY to pretend its not YOUR doing.

It is.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 10:55:36 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline bilo

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 11:10:37 pm »
"Instead of working with their imperfect nominee, making him a better candidate, the #NeverTrumpers at National Review and throughout the establishment and donor class are either withholding support or actively sabotaging his campaign." 

Okay, we are Conservatives, right?

Are we supposed to mold and shape people, like some sort of psychology experiment (like Big Government Liberals do), or, are we supposed to take people at face value, show them facts and allow them to draw their own conclusions?

The article admits that Trump needs to be made into a better candidate.

Trump people are going out of their way to cover up this error in judgement, but doing so by blaming the rest of us.

Again, this is our fault how?

In my world withholding my money is my right. It's mine.

It is up to the candidate to show donors why they should want to support him/her with donations. Trump has made it very clear he can't be trusted and doesn't hold to any core principals. So why would big donors who want to see less regulation, lower taxes, more state sovereignty, less govt give money to someone they can't rely on to work for those things.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Online Ghost Bear

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 11:17:24 pm »
Illogical to say the least.

This is simple really. If Trump reels in 90%+ of Republicans and loses, than yes...the blame for this loss can be laid at the feet of his supporters in the party. However, if he loses because 10-20% of Republicans voted elsewhere or chose to stay home...than those who did so carry 100% of the blame for putting Hillary in the White House. THEIR votes will be, literally, what decided the election and that's just not a debatable point. Them's the facts, as they say.

It ain't rocket science, no matter how many faux semantics you try to pile on top to avoid your responsibility. If YOU don't support the GOP nominee, you can't blame others for the Dem nominee winning...feel free to argue that Hillary winning was your intention because you thought it best, but don't even TRY to pretend its not YOUR doing.

It is.

Yes, it is very simple. It's been known in politics since politics began. If a candidate can't appeal to his own base enough to get them to come out and vote for him, then he is a bad candidate. Bad candidates lose elections. Period.

Even Trump Supporters should be able to grasp that point.   :whistle:
Let it burn.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 11:22:02 pm »
Yes, it is very simple. It's been known in politics since politics began. If a candidate can't appeal to his own base enough to get them to come out and vote for him, then he is a bad candidate. Bad candidates lose elections. Period.

Even Trump Supporters should be able to grasp that point.   :whistle:

Of course, the inverse is equally true. If a faction of a party will only unite with the larger party when their preferred candidate (Cruz) is the nominee...said party is sure to lose every election. Its the classic "we shall all, surely, hang separately".

On the other hand, the party that unifies...even behind a monstrous candidate like Hillary Clinton...is likely to win. The latter party, wisely accepting that any candidate from its ranks is BY FAR the lesser of two evils...succeeds. The former party, which is full moral narcissists who believe the good is always the enemy of the perfect, does not.

Guess which of the above philosophies is inerrantly self defeating?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:24:42 pm by Mesaclone »
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Online Ghost Bear

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 11:24:18 pm »
Of course, the inverse is equally true. If a faction of a party will only unite with the larger party when their preferred candidate (Cruz) is the nominee...said party is sure to lose every election. The party that unifies...even behind a monstrous candidate like Hillary Clinton...is likely to win. The latter party, accepts that any candidate from its ranks is BY FAR the lesser of two evils...the former party is full moral narcissists who believe the good is always the enemy of the perfect. Guess which philosophy is self defeating?

We'll see in November, won't we?   :seeya:
Let it burn.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 11:26:21 pm »
We'll see in November, won't we?   :seeya:

We're seeing it now. The party that is wise enough to rally to its nominee...even the members unhappy that said nominee IS the nominee...is ahead. The party too full of moral narcissists to rally to its nominee...because he wasn't "their" favored guy...is behind.

The formula is simple, and the math unforgiving.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:26:59 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 11:28:40 pm »
However, if he loses because 10-20% of Republicans voted elsewhere or chose to stay home...than those who did so carry 100% of the blame

The CUSTOMER is always right. If no one wants your product, no matter how swell you think it is, then the thing to do is come up with a better product.

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 11:29:55 pm »
We're seeing it now. The party that is wise enough to rally to its nominee...even the members unhappy that said nominee IS the nominee...is ahead. The party too full of moral narcissists to rally to its nominee...because he wasn't "their" favored guy...is behind.

The formula is simple, and the math unforgiving.

The party fielding the worst candidate is losing. Period.
Let it burn.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 11:36:30 pm »
The party fielding the worst candidate is losing. Period.

Aside from being nebulous..."worst" is so subjective as to mean virtually anything depending on who is defining it in this context...this is patently untrue. Whatever their shortcomings, McCain and Romney were both better men then Mr. Obama...and both lost in resounding fashion. To some extent, they lost because many GOP voters stayed home...unhappy with their nominee. Sound familiar. We lose, because we systematically fail to unite and combine our energy as a party to support a single candidate. This year may very well be the 3rd time in succession that we do this.

If the party wants to EVER actually win an election...its not complicated. We must fight it out, argue, debate, discuss and vote in the primaries for whichever candidates we separately believe in...and once that process is over, we must all rally to whichever candidate wins the contest. No faction gets veto, and no faction falls into the trap of moral narcissism and walks away. We ALL rally to the nominee, even when he is not our first, second or other choice down the line. Either we do that, or we never win. Its a choice I guess, but falling repeatedly on a moralistic sword leads to the continuous election of radically liberal presidents...and how "moral" is that for the nation?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:41:28 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2016, 11:41:54 pm »
Illogical to say the least.

This is simple really. If Trump reels in 90%+ of Republicans and loses, than yes...the blame for this loss can be laid at the feet of his supporters in the party. However, if he loses because 10-20% of Republicans voted elsewhere or chose to stay home...than those who did so carry 100% of the blame for putting Hillary in the White House. THEIR votes will be, literally, what decided the election and that's just not a debatable point. Them's the facts, as they say.

It ain't rocket science, no matter how many faux semantics you try to pile on top to avoid your responsibility. If YOU don't support the GOP nominee, you can't blame others for the Dem nominee winning...feel free to argue that Hillary winning was your intention because you thought it best, but don't even TRY to pretend its not YOUR doing.

It is.

Oh bull.  My vote doesn't belong to the Republican Party, or to the conservative movement, or to Donald Trump personally, or to anyone or anything else but me.  I will cast it for the best candidate on the ballot, and if I determine that no candidate warrants my vote, I will refrain from voting for that position.  If you can't put up a candidate worthy of my support and therefore his opponent (even though just as bad or worse) wins, the fault lies entirely with you (the group who put up the odious candidate), not with those voters who find him totally unacceptable.
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Online Ghost Bear

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2016, 11:45:28 pm »


Clinton, Favorable/Unfavorable (RCP Average): Favorable, 40.6%; Unfavorable, 54.9%  Source

Trump, Favorable/Unfavorable (RCP Average): Favorable, 34.1%; Unfavorable, 61.1%  Source

Simple.

Please do not delete a quoted post, and add a snarky remark. Either use the quote or just choose Reply, instead of quote. Thanks! --R4T
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 06:18:33 am by Repub4Trump »
Let it burn.

Offline skeeter

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2016, 11:45:55 pm »
Of course, the inverse is equally true. If a faction of a party will only unite with the larger party when their preferred candidate (Cruz) is the nominee...said party is sure to lose every election. Its the classic "we shall all, surely, hang separately".

On the other hand, the party that unifies...even behind a monstrous candidate like Hillary Clinton...is likely to win. The latter party, wisely accepting that any candidate from its ranks is BY FAR the lesser of two evils...succeeds. The former party, which is full moral narcissists who believe the good is always the enemy of the perfect, does not.

Guess which of the above philosophies is inerrantly self defeating?

Personally I believe most former Cruz supporters wouldn't cut their noses off to spite their faces.

I am one - I am waiting for Trump to give me a credible reason to vote for him. So far he has done nothing of the sort - its all been tacking left, backtracking, threats and bluster.

I will not vote for someone on account of a threat. ESPECIALLY not on account of a threat.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2016, 12:01:37 am »
Oh bull.  My vote doesn't belong to the Republican Party, or to the conservative movement, or to Donald Trump personally, or to anyone or anything else but me.  I will cast it for the best candidate on the ballot, and if I determine that no candidate warrants my vote, I will refrain from voting for that position.  If you can't put up a candidate worthy of my support and therefore his opponent (even though just as bad or worse) wins, the fault lies entirely with you (the group who put up the odious candidate), not with those voters who find him totally unacceptable.

Of course your vote doesn't belong to the party, and you have every right to vote as you wish...obviously. This isn't about what you CAN do or even what you will do. It is about why the Left continues to win every presidential election and the right loses...and your comments are the perfect exemplar of why that is. They rally around their nominee, despite his/her imperfections from their point of view...on the right, everyone enjoys the feeling of moral righteousness so much that they are happy to except losing....and putting in office a radically left wing leader...repeatedly...perhaps in perpetuity if that attitude continues to prevail.

So do as you will...just don't wonder why the Far Left is leading the country. They are tactically smart enough to vote for the lesser of evils...our side is to "moral" to do so. They win, every time.
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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2016, 12:03:01 am »
Of course your vote doesn't belong to the party, and you have every right to vote as you wish...obviously. This isn't about what you CAN do or even what you will do. It is about why the Left continues to win every presidential election and the right loses...and your comments are the perfect exemplar of why that is. They rally around their nominee, despite his/her imperfections from their point of view...on the right, everyone enjoys the feeling of moral righteousness so much that they are happy to except losing....and putting in office a radically left wing leader...repeatedly...perhaps in perpetuity if that attitude continues to prevail.

So do as you will...just don't wonder why the Far Left is leading the country. They are tactically smart enough to vote for the lesser of evils...our side is to "moral" to do so. They win, every time.

They are tactically smart enough to provide a candidate the vast majority of their base approves of.  Duh.
Let it burn.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2016, 12:03:48 am »
If the party wants to EVER actually win an election...its not complicated. [...]  We ALL rally to the nominee, even when he is not our first, second or other choice down the line. Either we do that, or we never win. Its a choice I guess, but falling repeatedly on a moralistic sword leads to the continuous election of radically liberal presidents...and how "moral" is that for the nation?

Nonsense. That's not winning.

The democrats are always unified because their candidates are always liberal... They SERVE their base. It doesn't matter which candidate wins, because any of them will fight for their cause. Try shoving a Conservative down their throats and see what happens.

The republicans, otoh, spend all their time trying to do what their base despises, Promising one thing, then doing another. And at election, they try to swing back around, put on their 'conservative clothes' and swear up and down that they will fight for the conservative cause. And then rah rah Republicans wonder why they can't get their guy elected.

Start serving your base. start actually fighting for the cause. Put up candidates who are stalwart. THEN you win.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2016, 12:14:07 am »
Nonsense. That's not winning.

The democrats are always unified because their candidates are always liberal... They SERVE their base. It doesn't matter which candidate wins, because any of them will fight for their cause. Try shoving a Conservative down their throats and see what happens.

The republicans, otoh, spend all their time trying to do what their base despises, Promising one thing, then doing another. And at election, they try to swing back around, put on their 'conservative clothes' and swear up and down that they will fight for the conservative cause. And then rah rah Republicans wonder why they can't get their guy elected.

Start serving your base. start actually fighting for the cause. Put up candidates who are stalwart. THEN you win.

Incorrect, big chunks of the Dem party see Hillary as being "too conservative"...Bernie supporters in particular. Yet they will rally around her ultimately, because they are smart enough to know that having a Dem president...even if impure in their "liberalness"...is better for the liberal cause than having a Republican president in power. Our side....sadly...is not so smart...or perhaps is to morally narcissistic to do what's tactically intelligent.

Your statement about "start serving your base" is simply another way of saying our nominee must be from the most conservative 20% of the party....or they are unacceptable. That is...has been...and will continue to be the formula for defeat. If you're OK with that, so be it...I imagine the thrill of moral superiority from such a position is very satisfying. For me, its less so when I see Obama/Hillary appointing justices who will approve and increase the slaughter of the unborn, and continue to reduce the freedoms of the entire nation. But hey, whatever makes you "feel" good.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:17:03 am by Mesaclone »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2016, 12:14:19 am »
McCain loses to Obama and the fault lies on the fact that the wrong person was nominated.

Romney loses to Obama and the fault lies on the fact that the wrong person was nominated.

Trump, a candidate with perhaps the greatest negatives in and out of  the Party he (allegedly) represents in history is (soon-to-be) nominated, in spite of the fact that a sizable portion of the GOP faithful have from day one vowed not to vote for him, but those who pushed his nomination through now want to blame those who didn't want him for the possible loss?

Bull hockers.

Trump will lose because he is the wrong person to be nominated, and those who pushed ahead and supported him bear every ounce of the responsibility for the loss.

Just as the votes of Trump supporters belonged to them in spite of all the visible opposition, mine belongs to me.

$NeverTrump
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The GOP's Death Wish
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2016, 12:23:30 am »
McCain loses to Obama and the fault lies on the fact that the wrong person was nominated.

Romney loses to Obama and the fault lies on the fact that the wrong person was nominated.

Trump, a candidate with perhaps the greatest negatives in and out of  the Party he (allegedly) represents in history is (soon-to-be) nominated, in spite of the fact that a sizable portion of the GOP faithful have from day one vowed not to vote for him, but those who pushed his nomination through now want to blame those who didn't want him for the possible loss?

Bull hockers.

Trump will lose because he is the wrong person to be nominated, and those who pushed ahead and supported him bear every ounce of the responsibility for the loss.

Just as the votes of Trump supporters belonged to them in spite of all the visible opposition, mine belongs to me.

$NeverTrump

"pushed ahead and supported him"???  The man got the most votes...by a mile. He got the most delegates...by a mile. Who else COULD be the nominee in that circumstance? And the truth is, had Cruz somehow won you'd have the Trump supporters just as adamantly against him right now and we'd face the exact same problem of unifying the party.

The party can't succeed when its factions take that stance...the my guy or no one stance...it is why we lose and will continue to lose. The only way to succeed...we get to argue and debate in the primary...and then we ALL rally around the nominee, even if that means choosing the lesser of evils. If you're too superior to do that...we all lose, over and over again.

And please quit with the self righteous...."my vote belongs to me" garbage. We all know this. The argument isn't about what you have the right to do, its about what is the intelligent and rational course. In other words, its about what you should do...what you can do is anything you choose.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:27:09 am by Mesaclone »
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