Tell me what I'm missing: Trump vs. Clinton

[speekinout]

He's neither.  He's not a capitalist except in the cronyism sense - how else do you think he's succeeded in NYC real estate, other than through cronyism - and there is simply nothing on which to base your claim that he's a patriot other than his own self-serving words, which cannot be trusted because they are nothing more than "truthful hyperbole" - the lies he happily says he tells the other side during negotiations.

I'm not making the perfect the enemy of the good.  There is no good as between Trump and Clinton, just a choice between two equally toxic poisons.

Crony capitalists are people who take gov't money or favors for their projects. Trump has done a lot of projects without gov't interference or help. Trump also knows how to make deals. And not all of his deals are in NY. No businessman - or politician - is ever going to get 100% of what he or she wants. The ideal is to get a deal - and that's not easy these days - that is >50% of what your side wants. I would much rather get 51% of what I want than 0%. And if you don't see that hillary is the 0% option, your bias is getting in the way of your vision.

[roamer_1]

Isn't it enough to know that we're deciding between socialism and capitalism?

But we're not. Trump is a crony-capitalist at best.

And whether we will try to get back to our Judeo-Christian roots or become a multi-culturist mish-mash of various moral codes?

Via Trump? Please. Two Corinthians.

I don't think the details matter all that much. Few Presidents have been able to accomplish more than 3-4 major things. Pick the 4 best of hillary's promises and the 4 worst of Trump's, and I think it's clear that Trump at his worst is still better than hillary would ever be.

So we are to adhere to this man on the basis of campaign promises? I will ask, asI have so many times: What is it that you use to secure those promises?

Trump has a list of very acceptable Supreme Court nominations, and that is very important.

...Which he has already said are no more than suggestions...

He also wants to reconstitute our military (which has suffered greatly).

With what acumen? He doesn't have the first clue how the military work.

I am hoping that his vp selection will be impressive. And those three things are a pretty good start for Trump.

You seem to be 'hoping' all the way around.

Thanks. I'll take Darrell Castle.

[Oceander]

Crony capitalists are people who take gov't money or favors for their projects. Trump has done a lot of projects without gov't interference or help. Trump also knows how to make deals. And not all of his deals are in NY. No businessman - or politician - is ever going to get 100% of what he or she wants. The ideal is to get a deal - and that's not easy these days - that is >50% of what your side wants. I would much rather get 51% of what I want than 0%. And if you don't see that hillary is the 0% option, your bias is getting in the way of your vision.

Nope.  You don't understand the definition of crony capitalism.  Go read a definition.  I see clearly - I've lived in NYC since 2000 so I know Trump, and Trump's political type, very, very, very well.  I can tell you for a fact that Donald Trump is a liberal and will govern accordingly.  Your adherence to the cult of personality is getting in the way of your vision.

[speekinout]

I felt nauseated watching those 13 hours play out. With President Clinton, it will happen again ... somewhere. Make no mistake. Our guys will be left with no support and no rescue. Blackhawk Down and 13 Hours will be allowed to happen again on Hillary's watch.

I cannot allow my vote to endorse such events.

Yes, and yes again. 0bama has left American citizens to die in other circumstances too - remember James Foley? - and hillary would do the same. And I fear hillary even more. She has no good words or good feelings toward our military. I cannot abide a Commander in Chief who has no regard for our military.

[roamer_1]

Please don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Oh, here we go... Typical Neocon argument. No one here is looking for perfect.

[Oceander]

Yes, and yes again. 0bama has left American citizens to die in other circumstances too - remember James Foley? - and hillary would do the same. And I fear hillary even more. She has no good words or good feelings toward our military. I cannot abide a Commander in Chief who has no regard for our military.

Trump is not materially different.

[roamer_1]

Trump is not materially different.

Right.

[BuckeyeTexan]

Every thoughtless bigoted slur to come out of Trump's mouth becomes another stain on the big tent.

A stained tent is nothing when compared to the bloodstains that come with President Clinton. She will knowingly sacrifice the lives of Americans, just as she did in Benghazi, if it gets her what she wants.

[Oceander]

A stained tent is nothing when compared to the bloodstains that come with President Clinton. She will knowingly sacrifice the lives of Americans, just as she did in Benghazi, if it gets her what she wants.

So will Donald Trump.

[speekinout]

Oh, here we go... Typical Neocon argument. No one here is looking for perfect.

Then what are you hoping to get? We have a choice between Trump & hillary. Do you really prefer hillary to Trump? The President doesn't do everything by him - or her - self. Do you want dim appointees or GOP appointees? Trump may only do 10 or 20% of what you want. But do you think hillary will do anything you want? She sure won't do anything I want. I want solid Supreme Court nominees, a strong military, an end to 0bamacare, some economic relief (lower taxes, fewer regulations), and an honest attempt to get rid of Islamic terrorism. Trump will at least try those things; hillary won't.

[speekinout]

Nope.  You don't understand the definition of crony capitalism.  Go read a definition.  I see clearly - I've lived in NYC since 2000 so I know Trump, and Trump's political type, very, very, very well.  I can tell you for a fact that Donald Trump is a liberal and will govern accordingly.  Your adherence to the cult of personality is getting in the way of your vision.

I know the definition of crony capitalism. I don't think you do.  But not all of Trump's businesses have been in NYC. Have you followed his deals in other places too?
And I sure don't find Trump's personality appealing - maybe it will grow on me after he's elected. 

[BuckeyeTexan]

So will Donald Trump.

We disagree on that. Trump's ego will not allow him to be seen as a feckless CIC. He may very well get our collective butt in a sling with his bombast, but he won't sacrifice American lives the way Clinton did in Benghazi.

[Oceander]

We disagree on that. Trump's ego will not allow him to be seen as a feckless CIC. He may very well get our collective butt in a sling with his bombast, but he won't sacrifice American lives the way Clinton did in Benghazi.

Trump's ego will make him a feckless CIC because his actions will be based on ego-gratification, not on a measured understanding of what the situation, and the nation, need.  He will just as readily sacrifice American lives to his ego as she would to hers.

[roamer_1]

Then what are you hoping to get?

CONSERVATISM

We have a choice between Trump & hillary.

Wrong.

Do you really prefer hillary to Trump?

Not my problem... I ain't voting for either of them. My preference this year is Darrell Castle - And if enough of our compatriots feel the same, he will win the plurality.

The President doesn't do everything by him - or her - self. Do you want dim appointees or GOP appointees?

If the Republicans are liberal, what the hell is the difference?

Trump may only do 10 or 20% of what you want.

You are being entirely too kind to Trump.

But do you think hillary will do anything you want? She sure won't do anything I want.

All the more reason to support Darrell Castle.

I want solid Supreme Court nominees, a strong military, an end to 0bamacare, some economic relief (lower taxes, fewer regulations), and an honest attempt to get rid of Islamic terrorism.

All the more reason to support Darrell Castle.

Trump will at least try those things; hillary won't.

According to whom?

[Oceander]

I know the definition of crony capitalism. I don't think you do.  But not all of Trump's businesses have been in NYC. Have you followed his deals in other places too?
And I sure don't find Trump's personality appealing - maybe it will grow on me after he's elected. 

No, dear, you don't. 

It doesn't have to do with people who take government money.  It's more complicated than that and it involves maintaining personal relationships with politicians who scratch your back so you'll scratch theirs.  Per wikipedia.

Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism.[1][2] Crony capitalism is believed to arise when business cronyism and related self-serving behavior by businesses or businesspeople spills over into politics and government,[3] or when self-serving friendships and family ties between businessmen and the government influence the economy and society to the extent that it corrupts public-serving economic and political ideals.

It was crony capitalism, and only crony capitalism, that saved Trump's casino license, and his casinos, as was documented in a story put up on the forum not too long ago.

When Trump tries to do something - other than brandishing his ego - that doesn't involve a heavily regulated industry, he fails.

It is precisely his crony capitalist nature that explains Donald Trump's support for the Supreme Court's Kelo decision, where the Supreme Court said that eminent domain could be used to take property from private owners and hand it over to private real estate developers. 

[Oceander]

Then what are you hoping to get? We have a choice between Trump & hillary. Do you really prefer hillary to Trump? The President doesn't do everything by him - or her - self. Do you want dim appointees or GOP appointees? Trump may only do 10 or 20% of what you want. But do you think hillary will do anything you want? She sure won't do anything I want. I want solid Supreme Court nominees, a strong military, an end to 0bamacare, some economic relief (lower taxes, fewer regulations), and an honest attempt to get rid of Islamic terrorism. Trump will at least try those things; hillary won't.

You have no clue what Trump would do because the only thing you have are his words, and as he told us in his book, The Art of the Deal, he doesn't tell the truth in negotiations - and seeking the nomination is just a negotiation - he tells "truthful hyperboles" - what my sainted grandmother would call fibs - and so what he says cannot be trusted.

All that's left is the political milieu in which he has lived and breathed for all of his life:  NYC.  In that milieu he is a Rockefeller Republican - a liberal - just like Michael Bloomberg.

[BuckeyeTexan]

Trump's ego will make him a feckless CIC because his actions will be based on ego-gratification, not on a measured understanding of what the situation, and the nation, need.  He will just as readily sacrifice American lives to his ego as she would to hers.

As I said, we disagree on that point. I think President Clinton is far more dangerous when it comes to sacrificing American lives. She already has skins on the wall.

[aligncare]

I don't think you get it.  ^-^ Trump may have some liberal leanings, but he also is a capitalist and a patriot. He has a great list of Supreme Court nominees, and that is a major issue for this election.

Please don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. You might not love Trump (I don't), but he sure beats the alternative (hillary).

Speekinout! haven't seen you in ages. Glad you came to add your voice. You had always impressed me as someone reasonable.

Reason is what's called for, but reason is what is lacking in these troubled times. You are staring into the gaping maw of intransigence. #NeverTrump will #NeverReason. Political wounds make people all zooey. So good luck with applying reason to the situation.

Luckily their movement is weak and pathetic and they are out-numbered, though you wouldn't know it from the current members of TBR.

But, again, good luck to you.

[Oceander]

As I said, we disagree on that point. I think President Clinton is far more dangerous when it comes to sacrificing American lives. She already has skins on the wall.

Clearly we do.  Why wouldn't a narcissist be just as likely to callously sacrifice American lives for improper purposes, such as gratifying his own ego?  Simple hypothetical:  sometimes you get into a bad situation and retreat is the better part of discretion.  However, retreat always has bad optics; the egotistical leader will see it as a sign of weakness or failure - if nothing else, it suggests the original decision to go in was a mistake - and since a narcissist cannot accept even the appearance of weakness or failure, he will double down on a bad situation and refuse to allow the troops to withdraw, thereby sacrificing them for the sake of his own ego, with callous disregard for their lives and the rationality of cutting your losses by retreating.

[Oceander]

Speekinout! haven't seen you in ages. Glad you came to add your voice. You had always impressed me as someone reasonable.

Reason is what's called for, but reason is what is lacking in these troubled times. You are staring into the gaping maw of intransigence. #NeverTrump will #NeverReason. Political wounds make people all zooey. So good luck with applying reason to the situation.

Luckily their movement is weak and pathetic and they are out-numbered, though you wouldn't know it from the current members of TBR.

But, again, good luck to you.

Nice to see you hauling out the personal attacks.  Again, again.

[aligncare]

Great post Oceander.

Another point to consider is all of the liberal accomplishments of a President Trump are then owned by the GOP.  A GOP that will be pressured into passing stuff for President Trump they wouldn't consider passing for President Hitlery.

Every thoughtless bigoted slur to come out of Trump's mouth becomes another stain on the big tent.

Additionally I would make the case that Hitlery would be better on issues of trade than Trump, but then I'm a freetrader like Reagan, not an isolationist.

Harley-Davidson, 1983, President Reagan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/02/business/us-raises-tariff-for-motorcycles.html

Those of us who love Harley Davidson's, light a candle for President Reagan.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Harley-Davidson, 1983, President Reagan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/02/business/us-raises-tariff-for-motorcycles.html

Those of us who love Harley Davidson's, light a candle for President Reagan.

I think Reagan's rhetoric is a stark contrast with Trump and Reagan's over all record and legacy includes GATT and NAFTA.  But I'll admit his record is not ideologically consistent.  You want to portray Reagan as a protectionist?  Whatever.  I'm not interested in fighting that battle with you ac.

I'm for free trade ( like Rush Limbaugh used to be before he became a populist tool ) so Hitlery is the lesser of two evils for me on that issue.  Is that better?

[BuckeyeTexan]

Clearly we do.  Why wouldn't a narcissist be just as likely to callously sacrifice American lives for improper purposes, such as gratifying his own ego?  Simple hypothetical:  sometimes you get into a bad situation and retreat is the better part of discretion.  However, retreat always has bad optics; the egotistical leader will see it as a sign of weakness or failure - if nothing else, it suggests the original decision to go in was a mistake - and since a narcissist cannot accept even the appearance of weakness or failure, he will double down on a bad situation and refuse to allow the troops to withdraw, thereby sacrificing them for the sake of his own ego, with callous disregard for their lives and the rationality of cutting your losses by retreating.

Your hypothetical may turn out to be totally  accurate. The problem for me is that I already know without a doubt how President Clinton will respond and that is without the necessary force. So given the threat of another 13 hours, I have to pick Trump over Hillary. If I thought there were any other choice, I'd consider it.

Maybe we'll get a different nominee from the convention.

[geronl]

I can't stand Hillary but you watch, she will govern from the middle.

grown men showering with 7th grade girls is now "from the middle"... apparently

[verga]

He's not the GOP nominee.  Not at this point.  False premise.

Trump will be at least as bad as Clinton.  He could also be worse because he'll be just as liberal as she will, but he'll be the GOP's liberal, and therefore almost impossible for the GOP to oppose him.  As a result, much more liberal nonsense will get through under Trump than under Clinton because there won't be as effective an opposition to his liberalism as to hers.

@Liberty Tree Dr  @Oceander There is also the issue that he will do to the Republican/ Conservative brand. Anything he does and EVERY stupid thing he says will be labeled with the R/C brand. The media will have a field day labeling him as anti/gay, women, muslim, immigrant, Christian. Every single news item or headline will be preceded by the unspoken "See we told you, but you didn't want to listen about the mean old R/C's"