Author Topic: 'Why not Texit?': Texas nationalists look to the Brexit vote for inspiration (from British newspaper)  (Read 22603 times)

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Offline wolfcreek

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I'm not sure how many applications are still valid (or considered valid by Congress).  An amendment to provide for a state to leave the Union wouldn't have much support within either Congress or the states.  Other possible amendments would be considered in a convention including a balanced budget, voting rights, gun control, term limits, and more.  Mark Levin has been pushing a CoS for a while with a number of proposed amendments.  He argues that it wouldn't be a constitutional convention but rather a convention of states, a distinction rather than a difference.  The Convention of 1787 started out as a convention to strengthen the Articles of Confederation and the central government.  Be careful what you ask for.

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Offline Sanguine

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Our TX Gov. Abbott has proposed a Conventions of States to get their attention and try to stop the overreach but, nothing as far as secession.

Of course he hasn't.  And, as I have stated before, we need to do a Convention of States before we consider anything else. 

Offline goatprairie

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You're too kind.  As for the 10th Amendment, it replaced the wording in Article II of the Articles of Confederation, which of course further within the Articles created a perpetual union.  The argument that the 10th somehow changed that very significant aspect of the Union without so stating will be a tough one.  Several of the proposed amendments during the ratification debates ensured that the states did have powers not specific or assumed by the federal government.  Even within the perpetual union as reflected in the Articles, the states were considered to be sovereign, free and independent, yet could never leave the confederation.
Even within the perpetual union as reflected in the Articles, the states were considered to be sovereign, free and independent,

Can you please direct to that part of the constitution that says states are "sovereign" and "free and independent."
Thirty-seven of the states were created by the fed gov. after the revolution.  States that are "sovereign" and "free and independent" are in effect separate countries.
Why would a country creat separate and independent countries inside itself? (The only separate countries of a sort that I know of that have separate legal status are the Indian reservations. That is an entirely other matter.)
The truth is that it would nothing short of insane for any country to create separate, independent countries inside its boundaries.  The fed. gov. wouldn't create separate countries.
 The states are not independent, sovereign countries inside the boundaries of the U.S. A. And since no state can have more constitutional powers than any other state (sorry Texas), no state is independent. They are what they are...non-federal units with certain powers inside and under the auspices of the fed. constitution whose provisions supercede all state laws.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 05:08:34 pm by goatprairie »

Offline goatprairie

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Haven't the Feds already, de facto, agreed to not follow the constitution?
Which Feds? I know Obama uses the constitution like a piece of toilet paper, but because he's close to being a dictator, that does not give other persons the right to take unconstitutional actions. In short, because the president breaks the law, that does not give private citizens the right to break the law. The law i.e. the constitution is what it is....all American citizens from the lowliest to the mightiest are bound by its provisions.
Throughout our history, there have been public officials like King Barack who have broken the law i.e. trashed the constitution. It is up to other public officials to make him obey. If those public officials abrogate their responsibility, it is the duty of the citizens to remove them as well as the tyrant in chief.
Now there may come a time when too much is too much...libs are pushing the patience of law-abiding Americans to the limit. Never say never when it might become a time to revolt against tyranny. And Obama is about as close to a tyrant as we've had. But FDR was a tyrant as well. Woodrow Wilson wanted to be one and did a number of tyrannical things.
But we're not quite there yet as far as utter tyranny.  And the constitution still does not provide for state secession as the answer to governmental tyranny. The cure for gov. tyranny is for citizens from all states to combat the tyranny.
If the fed. gov. decides to tyrannize members of one part of the country, it is the duty of all patriotic citizens to help those tyrannized citizens regardless of states boundaries.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 05:06:28 pm by goatprairie »

Offline MACVSOG68

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Even within the perpetual union as reflected in the Articles, the states were considered to be sovereign, free and independent,

Can you please direct to that part of the constitution that says states are "sovereign" and "free and independent."
Thirty-seven of the states were created by the fed gov. after the revolution.  States that are "sovereign" and "free and independent" are in effect separate countries.
Why would a country creat separate and independent countries inside itself? (The only separate countries of a sort that I know of that have separate legal status are the Indian reservations. That is an entirely other matter.)
The truth is that it would nothing short of insane for any country to create separate, independent countries inside its boundaries.  The fed. country wouldn't create separate countries.
 The states are not independent, sovereign countries inside the boundaries of the U.S. A. And since no state can have more constitutional powers than any other state (sorry Texas), no state is independent. They are what they are...non-federal units with certain powers inside and under the auspices of the fed. constitution whose provisions supercede all state laws.

Two points.  First, in spite of Article II of the Articles of Confederation containing the sovereign, free and independent wording, the Articles still clearly forbid any state from altering the Articles or the perpetual nature of the union.  Second, that Article (II) was replaced by the 10th Amendment as a catch-all to ensure a republican form of government where states still had the power to make laws not held out for the federal government.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Even within the perpetual union as reflected in the Articles, the states were considered to be sovereign, free and independent,

Can you please direct to that part of the constitution that says states are "sovereign" and "free and independent."
States which were not sovereign and independent could never sign a compact for mutual defense, etc., now could they? They'd have to have their bosses do it for them. If one of the original 13 had decided to NOT ratify that agreement, they would have remained independent.

Quote
Why would a country creat separate and independent countries inside itself?

It didn't. Those separate countries wrapped themselves in another level of government to settle disputes, to coin common money, and to provide for their mutual defense. They also gave it the authority to settle disputes between them. But those separate countries created the Federal Government for the purposes stated, not the other way around. Those separate countries already had their executive, (Governor), their legislatures, their courts, and their own armies (Militias).

 
Quote
The truth is that it would nothing short of insane for any country to create separate, independent countries inside its boundaries.  The fed. gov. wouldn't create separate countries.

It would seem so becuase you have the creation process bassackwards. Those separate countries created a Federation, the federation did not create them.


Quote
The states are not independent, sovereign countries inside the boundaries of the U.S. A. And since no state can have more constitutional powers than any other state (sorry Texas), no state is independent. They are what they are...non-federal units with certain powers inside and under the auspices of the fed. constitution whose provisions supercede all state laws.
Perhaps not technically as things are today because of the incredible usurpation of State Power and Authority by the Federal Government since the War of Northern Aggression, and especially during the last 105 years.
Again, I refer you to the narrowly defined and constrained powers of that Federal entity as created, the power and structure of the individual State Governments at the time, and recommend reading the Federalist Papers (and the anti-Federalist as well). Please pay special attention to the wording of the Tenth Amendment.

It has taken nearly two centuries of misinterpretation of the Constitution and the progressive ignorance of the People to gradually concentrate that Power in Federal hands, one court decision, one ruling, one agency or program at a time, but the shift has been incremental, inexorable, and cumulatively significant in the removal of State Power and the Liberty of the People.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:12:24 am by Smokin Joe »
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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States which were not sovereign and independent could never sign a compact for mutual defense, etc., now could they? They'd have to have their bosses do it for them. If one of the original 13 had decided to NOT ratify that agreement, they would have remained independent.

It didn't. Those separate countries wrapped themselves in another level of government to settle disputes, to coin common money, and to provide for their mutual defense. They also gave it the authority to settle disputes between them. But those separate countries created the Federal Government for the purposes stated, not the other way around. Those separate countries already had their executive, (Governor), their legislatures, their courts, and their own armies (Militias).

 
It would seem so becuase you have the creation process bassackwards. Those separate countries created a Federation, the federation did not create them.

 Perhaps not technically as things are today because of the incredible usurpation of State Power and Authority by the Federal Government since the War of Northern Aggression, and especially during the last 105 years.
Again, I refer you to the narrowly defined and constrained powers of that Federal entity as created, the power and structure of the individual State Governments at the time, and recommend reading the Federalist Papers (and the anti-Federalist as well). Please pay special attention to the wording of the Tenth Amendment.

It has taken nearly two centuries of misinterpretation of the Constitution and the progressive ignorance of the People to gradually concentrate that Power in Federal hands, one court decision, one ruling, one agency or program at a time, but the shift has been incremental, inexorable, and cumulatively significant in the removal of State Power and the Liberty of the People.

That is worth repeating.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:15:59 am by Sanguine »

Offline goatprairie

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States which were not sovereign and independent could never sign a compact for mutual defense, etc., now could they? They'd have to have their bosses do it for them. If one of the original 13 had decided to NOT ratify that agreement, they would have remained independent.

It didn't. Those separate countries wrapped themselves in another level of government to settle disputes, to coin common money, and to provide for their mutual defense. They also gave it the authority to settle disputes between them. But those separate countries created the Federal Government for the purposes stated, not the other way around. Those separate countries already had their executive, (Governor), their legislatures, their courts, and their own armies (Militias).

 
It would seem so becuase you have the creation process bassackwards. Those separate countries created a Federation, the federation did not create them.

 Perhaps not technically as things are today because of the incredible usurpation of State Power and Authority by the Federal Government since the War of Northern Aggression, and especially during the last 105 years.
Again, I refer you to the narrowly defined and constrained powers of that Federal entity as created, the power and structure of the individual State Governments at the time, and recommend reading the Federalist Papers (and the anti-Federalist as well). Please pay special attention to the wording of the Tenth Amendment.

It has taken nearly two centuries of misinterpretation of the Constitution and the progressive ignorance of the People to gradually concentrate that Power in Federal hands, one court decision, one ruling, one agency or program at a time, but the shift has been incremental, inexorable, and cumulatively significant in the removal of State Power and the Liberty of the People.
What does the word "union" mean to you? Not like the ex Soviet Union where Russia simply told a bunch of other countries they were in. When we formed the United States of America, the states voluntarily gave up their right as sovereign entities....which they were for only a very brief period of time after the war.
Now you can find all sort of phrases or quote words from different people as to what the Founders "really meant," but the fact is if they wanted the states to be able to leave at will they would have very clearly put it in writing...in the constitution. They didn't. Because it would have been insane and the end of the union.

Offline MACVSOG68

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States which were not sovereign and independent could never sign a compact for mutual defense, etc., now could they? They'd have to have their bosses do it for them. If one of the original 13 had decided to NOT ratify that agreement, they would have remained independent.

True.  Rhode Island rejected the constitution and only finally accepted it under duress, believing that as an independent country it would soon be taken over.  Ratification barely passed.

 
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Offline Bigun

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True.  Rhode Island rejected the constitution and only finally accepted it under duress, believing that as an independent country it would soon be taken over.  Ratification barely passed.

And what get's lost in all this is that Rhode Island is but one of two different members of the original union under the Articles Confederation, which WAS chartered as a PERPETUAL union BTW,  did not join the new union until years after the new constitution was ratified. What happened to that perpetual union?  How could that happen?

The Constitution doesn't say a single word about the union being perpetual! Not a word.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Sanguine

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We can spend days/months/years arguing over the legality of leaving or staying, but that avoids the bigger issue - that of what we are leaving or staying with. 

Offline MACVSOG68

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And what get's lost in all this is that Rhode Island is but one of two different members of the original union under the Articles Confederation, which WAS chartered as a PERPETUAL union BTW,  did not join the new union until years after the new constitution was ratified. What happened to that perpetual union?  How could that happen?

The Constitution doesn't say a single word about the union being perpetual! Not a word.

Rhode Island just didn't like the new Constitution for a lot of reasons.  It took several months to get ratification.  People like to talk about what the Founders believed about this or that.  They were tremendously divided even after the draft was signed.  I'm not sure why you think that the perpetual union was somehow done away with.  The fact is that there's a way out of any of the requirements through Article V including a way out of the Union very similar to Article VI of the Articles of Confederation.

The overarching purpose of the Convention was to make the union stronger and to make a national government far stronger than the Articles.  If the authors wanted to eliminate the perpetual nature of the union, don't you think someone might have mentioned it at least in passing?  Do you think the words "...in order to form a more perfect union..." are really written to actually make the Union weaker? 

How strong would this new union be if a member state could leave whenever it wanted?  Why bother with Article V?  Just demand a change or the union would be dissolved.  Not much of a stronger union.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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What does the word "union" mean to you? Not like the ex Soviet Union where Russia simply told a bunch of other countries they were in. When we formed the United States of America, the states voluntarily gave up their right as sovereign entities....which they were for only a very brief period of time after the war.
Now you can find all sort of phrases or quote words from different people as to what the Founders "really meant," but the fact is if they wanted the states to be able to leave at will they would have very clearly put it in writing...in the constitution. They didn't. Because it would have been insane and the end of the union.
The Constitution was the vehicle by which those sovereign states granted power to a federal entity for the purposes I have outlined (which the founders specifically outlined, too). The purpose wasn't to cede  all power to a National Government and leave the scraps for the States  but to give narrowly defined roles to the Federal Government and Retain the vast bulk of power to the States and the People. That is stated repeatedly in the document and the Bill of Rights. It requires no more interpretation than a fundamental understanding of the English language.
Why would a Governor, a Legislature, the entire court system, the landholders, the People of a sovereign State throw all their self-determination, power and Liberty to a small group of people with conflicting interests one, maybe two weeks by land or a long boat ride away when they had just fought to eliminate that entire situation of being governed from afar?
The Constitution would never have been ratified had that been the case. The harping about
"The Union" . is a political artifact of the War of Northern Aggression, where the "Union" was used along with Abolitionist propaganda to justify forcing at gunpoint the return of the Southern agricultural producing areas northern textile mills heavily exploited to the purview of the heavily Northern dominated Congress and the cronies thereof. You won't see such ballyhoo about "Union" in the Federalist papers, and it is only used in the preamble in the sense of forming a Federation, not a National Government.

Otherwise, of what use would have been the Secretary of State, Attorney General, Supreme Courts, and State Legislatures (to mention a few) and other associated offices which perform the functions of those of a nation, but are found in each State? Why did the States have their several Constitutions, when one would suffice for a Nation united: a Union--in a time when many well established Nations did not have a Constitution?

Those offices and Constitutions are suitable for nations, not mere fiefdoms to rubber stamp the edicts from afar. The concentration of power we see today in DC was NOT the intent of the Founders, the original power resided with The People, who granted powers to their States, who grudgingly ceded only such power as was necessary to keep a Federation viable, for the benefit of mutual defense, coining money, negotiating with foreign powers, and to settle squabbles among the several States.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

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Rhode Island just didn't like the new Constitution for a lot of reasons.  It took several months to get ratification.  People like to talk about what the Founders believed about this or that.  They were tremendously divided even after the draft was signed.  I'm not sure why you think that the perpetual union was somehow done away with.  The fact is that there's a way out of any of the requirements through Article V including a way out of the Union very similar to Article VI of the Articles of Confederation.

The overarching purpose of the Convention was to make the union stronger and to make a national government far stronger than the Articles.  If the authors wanted to eliminate the perpetual nature of the union, don't you think someone might have mentioned it at least in passing?  Do you think the words "...in order to form a more perfect union..." are really written to actually make the Union weaker? 

How strong would this new union be if a member state could leave whenever it wanted?  Why bother with Article V?  Just demand a change or the union would be dissolved.  Not much of a stronger union.


The SOLE purpose of the convention was to propose amendments to the Articles! The convention went rouge almost immediately and the entire delegation from New York left because of that.  Hamilton later returned. 

Instead of doing what it was charted to do the convention wrote an entirely new constitution which, when ratified,  threw out the Articles of Confederation and the perpetual union with it!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:48:01 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

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What does the word "union" mean to you? Not like the ex Soviet Union where Russia simply told a bunch of other countries they were in. When we formed the United States of America, the states voluntarily gave up their right as sovereign entities....which they were for only a very brief period of time after the war.
Now you can find all sort of phrases or quote words from different people as to what the Founders "really meant," but the fact is if they wanted the states to be able to leave at will they would have very clearly put it in writing...in the constitution. They didn't. Because it would have been insane and the end of the union.

The very name United States defines separate entities, joined together in some respects, separate in others.

Their very first government agreement, the Articles of Confederation, made it clear they saw themselves that way.

Article II:  Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

When they refined their federal agreements in the new Constitution, the 10th Amendment, it kept the individual State authority.

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Offline Sanguine

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What does the word "union" mean to you? Not like the ex Soviet Union where Russia simply told a bunch of other countries they were in. When we formed the United States of America, the states voluntarily gave up their right as sovereign entities....which they were for only a very brief period of time after the war.
Now you can find all sort of phrases or quote words from different people as to what the Founders "really meant," but the fact is if they wanted the states to be able to leave at will they would have very clearly put it in writing...in the constitution. They didn't. Because it would have been insane and the end of the union.

You mean like the European union?

Offline thackney

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We can spend days/months/years arguing over the legality of leaving or staying, but that avoids the bigger issue - that of what we are leaving or staying with.

While I agree that is a bigger issue, I see the first step is getting enough Texans to agree they want to consider leaving.

Over a quarter million have joined the Texas Nationalist Movement online.
http://www.thetnm.org/
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Offline austingirl

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While I agree that is a bigger issue, I see the first step is getting enough Texans to agree they want to consider leaving.

Over a quarter million have joined the Texas Nationalist Movement online.
http://www.thetnm.org/

My husband and I are members.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline Sanguine

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My husband and I are members.

I have been remiss in not signing up.  I will correct that.

Offline For-Q-Clinton

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When DC no longer has the ability to pay the interest on the debt without cutting other bennies...that when the breakup will begin in earnest.

That's why the IRS is buying weapons, no?  They don't plan to run out of other people's money anytime soon.  Do you think they'll let one of the most productive states in the nation just leave?


Offline Free Vulcan

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That's why the IRS is buying weapons, no?  They don't plan to run out of other people's money anytime soon.  Do you think they'll let one of the most productive states in the nation just leave?

They can plan all they want, but they are on a collision course for reality. They will of course be in denial till the checks start bouncing.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Bigun

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I have been remiss in not signing up.  I will correct that.

I'll sign up on the day the republican party nominates Donald J. Trump! 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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The SOLE purpose of the convention was to propose amendments to the Articles! The convention went rouge almost immediately and the entire delegation from New York left because of that.  Hamilton later returned. 

Instead of doing what it was charted to do the convention wrote an entirely new constitution which, when ratified,  threw out the Articles of Confederation and the perpetual union with it!

A couple of points.  First, you are correct New York among others did want to retain the Articles initially.  New York was a small state having only three delegates, with Hamilton remaining.  While I'm not sure how you saw replacement of the Articles with a new constitution resulted in throwing out the perpetual union concept with it.  It also eliminated Article II which referred to each state's sovereignty, freedom and independence.  Do you think the new constitution eliminated a state's sovereignty, freedom and independence too?  If so, then apparently the term "Perpetual union" was no longer necessary.

Secondly, for those who are looking to an Article V convention of states, the 1787 convention should be a warning of what a convention can bring if its delegates agree.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Secondly, for those who are looking to an Article V convention of states, the 1787 convention should be a warning of what a convention can bring if its delegates agree.
What damned good is another agreement when the Federal Government doesn't abide by the present one?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline MACVSOG68

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What damned good is another agreement when the Federal Government doesn't abide by the present one?

No argument there, but the point was that a convention of states can go anywhere it wants in putting together amendments.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!