Author Topic: 'Why not Texit?': Texas nationalists look to the Brexit vote for inspiration (from British newspaper)  (Read 22610 times)

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Offline mirraflake

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Well, that's a useful, fact-based comment.

..but it's the truth.  The Texas pipeliner staying at the local RV park has  in his back window of his truck "If you ain't from Texas you ain't sh*t"





@Sanguine
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 06:31:06 pm by mirraflake »

Offline HoustonSam

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..but it's the truth.  The Texas pipeliner staying at the local RV park has  in his back window of his truck "If you ain't from Texas you ain't sh*t"

@Sanguine

Long before I ever moved to Texas, I heard it said once : "Never ask a man if he's from Texas.  If he is, he'll tell you himself.  If he's not, you don't want to embarrass him."  We native Tennesseans living in Texas just nod and smile.
James 1:20

Offline GrouchoTex

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Long before I ever moved to Texas, I heard it said once : "Never ask a man if he's from Texas.  If he is, he'll tell you himself.  If he's not, you don't want to embarrass him."  We native Tennesseans living in Texas just nod and smile.

Yes, I have heard that.
Another one of my favorites is that, "You can always tell a Texan, but you can't tell him much".

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Ability of states to secede is decided by USSC then by force. Your opinion is meaningless in the whole argument.

Why jealousy, exactly? My opinion of the whole debate is that it's nothing but the meaningless prattle of keyboard warriors. There's no serious push for Texas to secede. The TX GOP may throw a bone to fringe elements within it, but that's all it is. Just a bone, nothing more.

The USCC had no say upon a state entering the Union.  Only Congress did when it passed a resolution offering statehood, and the state accepted.

Why would the USCC have any say upon them leaving? 

This is making no sense whatsoever, and is conjecturing.  I note we have had a lot of that on this thread, as well as attempted hijacking such as the slavery issue and assertions that Obama has always obeyed the law, which has nothing to add to this discussion.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline MACVSOG68

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Only if "perfect" means "perpetual" and "unalterable by any state."  Why should that be the case for a political union?

One could argue that a "perfect" political union is one alterable by any state.  Since secession is not mentioned in the Constitution but all powers not delegated to the Federal Government are reserved to the states, and the people, I would more likely think that "more perfect" does mean alterable by any state.

It might be a hard argument to make.  The Articles of Confederation did indeed create a perpetual union, unalterable except by Congress and agreed to by all states.  The Constitution created a more perfect union by strengthening the federal government and better defining the powers of the states.  While the Constitution did provide methods for altering or modifying it, no mention was made of any means that would permit a state to withdraw from the Union outside of Article V.  Something this important might have been mentioned since in essence it would have changed the Union from perpetual to "at the discretion of any state".

The new constitution omitted Article II from the Articles of Confederation which had stated: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."  And yet even with that wording, the union was made perpetual and unalterable by any state by Article XIII.

One would have to make a case that the 10th Amendment provided for an escape, without so stating. 

 

It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline wolfcreek

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Keep the Flatlanders out of New Mexican ski-resorts.

Who would keep them afloat?

Offline HoustonSam

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It might be a hard argument to make.  The Articles of Confederation did indeed create a perpetual union, unalterable except by Congress and agreed to by all states.  The Constitution created a more perfect union by strengthening the federal government and better defining the powers of the states.  While the Constitution did provide methods for altering or modifying it, no mention was made of any means that would permit a state to withdraw from the Union outside of Article V.  Something this important might have been mentioned since in essence it would have changed the Union from perpetual to "at the discretion of any state".

The new constitution omitted Article II from the Articles of Confederation which had stated: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."  And yet even with that wording, the union was made perpetual and unalterable by any state by Article XIII.

One would have to make a case that the 10th Amendment provided for an escape, without so stating.

I envy your knowledge of the Articles, and admire you bringing that context to the discussion.

Obviously it is a hard argument to make, in either direction, since there are such deeply-held opinions on both sides.  However I think the entire meaning of the 10th Amendment is that it provides for liberties without listing what they are.  Reasonable people can differ.
James 1:20

Offline thackney

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It might be a hard argument to make.  The Articles of Confederation did indeed create a perpetual union, unalterable except by Congress and agreed to by all states.  The Constitution created a more perfect union by strengthening the federal government and better defining the powers of the states.  While the Constitution did provide methods for altering or modifying it, no mention was made of any means that would permit a state to withdraw from the Union outside of Article V.  Something this important might have been mentioned since in essence it would have changed the Union from perpetual to "at the discretion of any state".

The new constitution omitted Article II from the Articles of Confederation which had stated: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."  And yet even with that wording, the union was made perpetual and unalterable by any state by Article XIII.

One would have to make a case that the 10th Amendment provided for an escape, without so stating.

Why do you believe the requirements to leave the Union are greater than the requirements to join the Union?
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Offline wolfcreek

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One would have to make a case that the 10th Amendment provided for an escape, without so stating.

Perhaps this is why the PTBs have tried to minimize/negate the 10th as much as possible.

Offline Smokin Joe

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It might be a hard argument to make.  The Articles of Confederation did indeed create a perpetual union, unalterable except by Congress and agreed to by all states.  The Constitution created a more perfect union by strengthening the federal government and better defining the powers of the states.  While the Constitution did provide methods for altering or modifying it, no mention was made of any means that would permit a state to withdraw from the Union outside of Article V.  Something this important might have been mentioned since in essence it would have changed the Union from perpetual to "at the discretion of any state".

The new constitution omitted Article II from the Articles of Confederation which had stated: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."  And yet even with that wording, the union was made perpetual and unalterable by any state by Article XIII.

One would have to make a case that the 10th Amendment provided for an escape, without so stating.
The hard argument to make is the one where you would have those same folks who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to the dissolution of the political ties with England, agree to an insoluable union of the sovereign and several States.
Their very lives were shaped by the concept that Government derives its just powers from the consent of the Governed, and that When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them... These concepts had not fallen away with independence from England, the thirst for Liberty is not so simply sated as to enter capriciously into a compact from which there could be no withdrawal.
The Federal Constitution was written to find a middle ground, wherein there was a Federal Government of limited and defined duties, primarily to coin the common money, to provide for mutual defense, to settle disputes between the States, and to keep the post roads open.

That secession from this more perfect arrangement would  be denied would have been written into this compact were that the case, and in that event would likely have prevented ratification by all the States.

The idea was that, with the specific addition of the first ten Amendments to further safeguard the Rights of individuals and the several States, the arrangement would be palatable enough, if not desirable enough that all the several States would agree to it. But nowhere does it say that they could not withdraw, and not only was that aspect not specifically agreed to, but the retention of all powers and rights not proscribed by the agreement or specifically delegated to the Federal Government were retained by the States and the People.

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Offline MACVSOG68

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Why do you believe the requirements to leave the Union are greater than the requirements to join the Union?

Even in contract law that's the case; that is two parties freely enter into a contract, but cannot freely detach from it except by language within it.  In any case, states come into the Union only through Congress.  Even given the perpetual nature of the Union, it would at the very least then require the same to leave.  At least now through several means contained in Article V, the Constitution could be amended to provide for that escape.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Ghost Bear

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Texans narcissistic,  braggadocious bullshit makes both Trump and Obama combined look like pikers.

Well goodness, you say things like that and then wonder why we don't want to stay around.  :pondering:

Perhaps you'll be entertained by this fine piece of music from a true Texas original, Ray Wylie Hubbard:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Mrez7ahZA
Let it burn.

Offline MACVSOG68

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I envy your knowledge of the Articles, and admire you bringing that context to the discussion.

Obviously it is a hard argument to make, in either direction, since there are such deeply-held opinions on both sides.  However I think the entire meaning of the 10th Amendment is that it provides for liberties without listing what they are.  Reasonable people can differ.

You're too kind.  As for the 10th Amendment, it replaced the wording in Article II of the Articles of Confederation, which of course further within the Articles created a perpetual union.  The argument that the 10th somehow changed that very significant aspect of the Union without so stating will be a tough one.  Several of the proposed amendments during the ratification debates ensured that the states did have powers not specific or assumed by the federal government.  Even within the perpetual union as reflected in the Articles, the states were considered to be sovereign, free and independent, yet could never leave the confederation.
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Offline thackney

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Even in contract law that's the case; that is two parties freely enter into a contract, but cannot freely detach from it except by language within it.

No, they can agree to do anything.  If they don't agree, the contract binds them.  But if both parties agree, they can change anything.

Quote
  In any case, states come into the Union only through Congress.  Even given the perpetual nature of the Union, it would at the very least then require the same to leave.

Agreed.

Quote
  At least now through several means contained in Article V, the Constitution could be amended to provide for that escape.

I also agree with this, but I do not see that as the only method.
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Offline TomSea

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Long before I ever moved to Texas, I heard it said once : "Never ask a man if he's from Texas.  If he is, he'll tell you himself.  If he's not, you don't want to embarrass him."  We native Tennesseans living in Texas just nod and smile.

Kind of like the saying in one state,  please flush the toilet, some other state needs the water. There are a lot of sayings.

Offline MACVSOG68

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The hard argument to make is the one where you would have those same folks who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to the dissolution of the political ties with England, agree to an insoluable union of the sovereign and several States.

And yet that's exactly what they did when they approved the Articles of Confederation.

 
Quote
Their very lives were shaped by the concept that Government derives its just powers from the consent of the Governed, and that When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them... These concepts had not fallen away with independence from England, the thirst for Liberty is not so simply sated as to enter capriciously into a compact from which there could be no withdrawal.
The Federal Constitution was written to find a middle ground, wherein there was a Federal Government of limited and defined duties, primarily to coin the common money, to provide for mutual defense, to settle disputes between the States, and to keep the post roads open.

That secession from this more perfect arrangement would  be denied would have been written into this compact were that the case, and in that event would likely have prevented ratification by all the States.

The idea was that, with the specific addition of the first ten Amendments to further safeguard the Rights of individuals and the several States, the arrangement would be palatable enough, if not desirable enough that all the several States would agree to it. But nowhere does it say that they could not withdraw, and not only was that aspect not specifically agreed to, but the retention of all powers and rights not proscribed by the agreement or specifically delegated to the Federal Government were retained by the States and the People.

And yet the one amendment looked to that would give a state the right to withdraw was simply a rewrite of what was in the Articles of Confederation, which did not permit a state to withdraw without approval of congress and all of the other states.  My point is simply that if the 10th Amendment gave the states that option, it should have been mentioned somewhere, given that it was a tremendous change and weakening of the union created.  But in any case, withdrawal still exists through Article V.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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In any case, states come into the Union only through Congress.  Even given the perpetual nature of the Union, it would at the very least then require the same to leave. 
[/quote]

Only partially true.  Both Congress and the state must agree prior to the state coming into the Union.

Important distinction, as it is not an only street.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline MACVSOG68

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No, they can agree to do anything.  If they don't agree, the contract binds them.  But if both parties agree, they can change anything.

I agree with that, which is my point.  This "contract" binds the states, and they can only change it through agreement of the other parties, IOW utilizing Article V.

 

Quote
I also agree with this, but I do not see that as the only method.

Well, force of arms is always an option.  What other option do you see a secession through legal channels?
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Offline TomSea

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I'd seriously consider voting to leave the Union, the morals and leftward leanings of the Democrats are too much. Also, there are other states that would like to do this. Whether some stupid Supreme Court decision is enough of a reason to want to leave the Union, I'm not sure.

Offline thackney

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I agree with that, which is my point.  This "contract" binds the states, and they can only change it through agreement of the other parties, IOW utilizing Article V.

 Well, force of arms is always an option.  What other option do you see a secession through legal channels?

I see Texas and Congress agreeing as a possible, but not probable, legal channel.

Perhaps if the Feds cannot agree to follow the constitution (which would be the best scenario), making them wish Texas was gone could be another option. 
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Offline Sanguine

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I see Texas and Congress agreeing as a possible, but not probable, legal channel.

Perhaps if the Feds cannot agree to follow the constitution (which would be the best scenario), making them wish Texas was gone could be another option.

Haven't the Feds already, de facto, agreed to not follow the constitution?

Offline thackney

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Haven't the Feds already, de facto, agreed to not follow the constitution?

Hence the reason for this thread...
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Offline Sanguine

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Offline MACVSOG68

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I see Texas and Congress agreeing as a possible, but not probable, legal channel.

Perhaps if the Feds cannot agree to follow the constitution (which would be the best scenario), making them wish Texas was gone could be another option.

Do you see Texas formally requesting that in any manner? 
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Offline truth_seeker

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At nearly 200 posts in, how about some reality:

Texas GOP rejects proposal for vote on secession

12/7/2015

AUSTIN--UPDATE—As expected, a proposal to hold a statewide non-binding vote on Texas secession failed overwhelmingly at an assembly of the Republican Party of Texas in Austin Saturday. Approximately 10 of the party's 62 voting officials supported the resolution.

In heated debate before the vote, opponents rejected the idea of secession as far-fetched.

"I'm not sending my grandson out with a 12-gauge shotgun to take on the 82nd Airborne," said State Republican Executive Committee member Fred Henneke, speaking to the assembly.
 
Supporters denied that the non-binding vote would spark violence, and invoked the spirit of 1776 U.S. Declaration of Independence and the 1836 Texas Declaration of Independence.

"We're only asking for an opinion," said SREC member Tanya Robertson, who first introduced resolution to poll Republican voters on the March primary ballot. "It can't hurt anything."

snip

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-secession-resolution-passes-GOP-committee-6676280.php

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