Author Topic: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects  (Read 6315 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RoosGirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,759
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #75 on: June 14, 2016, 03:43:44 pm »
Yeah...but again...you leave out all context.

We were discussing overturning all of Barack Obama's EOs.

Plus, I still maintain there were be enormous coattails for GOP candidates and a GOP House and Senate...together with an adversarial MSM will keep Trump on the straight and narrow.

"I gots to believe...."

You sure trust the backstabbing GOP more than I do. 

Offline DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,466
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #76 on: June 14, 2016, 03:45:37 pm »
You sure trust the backstabbing GOP more than I do.

If I want to stop Hillary Clinton and the destruction of our Bill of Rights...what VIABLE choice do we have?
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline RoosGirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,759
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2016, 03:49:52 pm »
If I want to stop Hillary Clinton and the destruction of our Bill of Rights...what VIABLE choice do we have?

There is no VIABLE choice for stopping the destruction of our Bill of Rights.  Your guy has already made clear that he has no regard for A1 or A2.  Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him in the primary.  There's your bed, lie in it.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2016, 04:07:17 pm »
Making a ban inclusive of persons under "reasonable suspicion" of "foreign" terror ties, and establishing strict guidelines for how the FBI would determine who fits in that category, is a more nuanced and effective way to limit the access such people have to heavy weaponry.

"heavy weaponry?????" Semi-fire rifles in the .223 caliber range is 'heavy weaponry' in your estimation?

Did you go to the Washington Post School of gun and weapons identification???

What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED do you TRUMP people not understand???????????

I expect a lecture on justified 'reasonable restrictions' coming from the likes of you.  I mean, your Prince has already suggested various infringements on the 1st Amendment which has been been a lightning rod for Apologetics for such actions by you Trump Faithful, so infringing on the Second to 'keep us safe' is just another in the list of Rights you all seem to have no problem knocking down.

limiting access to weapons for people suspected of terror ties...a point that is not wrong but is so vague as to create valid concern that such an approach could be abused and become tyrannical.

Duh!  It is a point that is VERY WRONG considering the Federal Beast has written policies that FORBID the Alphabets to profile middle Eastern Muslims, so abuse is an ingredient already baked into their cake.


As time goes by, his approach will refine itself into something like I've asserted above…

And how do you know this?  Are you clairvoyant? Did he discuss this with you over tea?  How do you know his approach "will refine itself into something you asserted above"?????? 

His statements would lend itself to the exact opposite of what you assert.

So while I understand all of the concerns on this topic, they are unwarranted.

Bullpuckey!  Any time there is a discussion of arms by politicians, candidates or agencies of the government - MAJOR CONCERN IS WARRANTED and assuming the worst is the best preventative of further infringements on that which is not supposed to be infringed at all.

Even if Mr Trump wanted to put in place such a broad restriction, it would fail to survive even the more liberal courts in the nation.

Like the 6th Circuit just last week???? 

He will out of necessity have to narrow the scope and focus of his restrictions....

So we will put you down as one who agrees that the 2nd Amendment can be regulated into irrelevance and the right of the people to keep and bear can be infringed.

Gotcha.

One more reason not to support Trump.

We want to support someone who believes in scrapping the entire system of gun regulations, fully restore the intents of the 2nd Amendment and let the American people defend themselves because it is obvious that we are on our own and cannot rely on the government or it's agents to keep us safe.

Trump is not that person.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 04:07:38 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Cowboyway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2016, 04:13:42 pm »
You sure trust the backstabbing GOP more than I do.

Spineless backstabbers.

Trump's got sand but it's shifting sand.  Goes whichever way the wind blows.
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,570
  • Gender: Female
  • WE are NOT ok!
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2016, 05:00:39 pm »
Yeah...but again...you leave out all context.

We were discussing overturning all of Barack Obama's EOs.

Plus, I still maintain there were be enormous coattails for GOP candidates and a GOP House and Senate...together with an adversarial MSM will keep Trump on the straight and narrow.

"I gots to believe...."

Those same enormous coattails and the same MSM can't keep B.O. in line; how do you think they are going to keep a narcissistic demagogue in check?  They won't.
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2016, 05:05:35 pm »
So people here actually agree with what Trump said here?

Quote
If the FBI is watching you for a suspected terrorist with links, you shouldn't be able to just go buy a gun with no questions asked.

Really? 

Offline Mesaclone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,407
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2016, 05:36:05 pm »
"heavy weaponry?????" Semi-fire rifles in the .223 caliber range is 'heavy weaponry' in your estimation? No where have I defined this as you assert.

Did you go to the Washington Post School of gun and weapons identification???

What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED do you TRUMP people not understand??????????? I'm fully on board with shall not be infringed. That said, felons and others convicted of crimes are all ready "prohibitable". What we are discussing is the degree of evidence that is reasonable to use as a tool for banning terrorists with foreign connections from having assault and other heavy weapons...that's a very specific group, not dissimilar from convicted felons. This in no way effect ordinary US citizens and their 2nd amendment rights.

I expect a lecture on justified 'reasonable restrictions' coming from the likes of you.  I mean, your Prince has already suggested various infringements on the 1st Amendment which has been been a lightning rod for Apologetics for such actions by you Trump Faithful, so infringing on the Second to 'keep us safe' is just another in the list of Rights you all seem to have no problem knocking down. I would not knock down ANY of our amendment rights. Period.

Duh!  It is a point that is VERY WRONG considering the Federal Beast has written policies that FORBID the Alphabets to profile middle Eastern Muslims, so abuse is an ingredient already baked into their cake.


And how do you know this?  Are you clairvoyant? Did he discuss this with you over tea?  How do you know his approach "will refine itself into something you asserted above"??????  No, I simply understand the reality of politics and Mr. Trump's modus operandi

His statements would lend itself to the exact opposite of what you assert.

Bullpuckey!  Any time there is a discussion of arms by politicians, candidates or agencies of the government - MAJOR CONCERN IS WARRANTED and assuming the worst is the best preventative of further infringements on that which is not supposed to be infringed at all.

Like the 6th Circuit just last week???? 

So we will put you down as one who agrees that the 2nd Amendment can be regulated into irrelevance and the right of the people to keep and bear can be infringed. You can do anything you'd like, but simply saying false things does not lend them credibility.

Gotcha.

One more reason not to support Trump.

We want to support someone who believes in scrapping the entire system of gun regulations, fully restore the intents of the 2nd Amendment and let the American people defend themselves because it is obvious that we are on our own and cannot rely on the government or it's agents to keep us safe.

Trump is not that person. He is far and away the closest thing you'll find in this election...and the alternative is a near complete abrogation of gun rights.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Online Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,097
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2016, 05:45:16 pm »
Mr. Trump's biggest weakness, and I say this as a supporter, is that he blurts out non-specific concepts such as limiting access to weapons for people suspected of terror ties...a point that is not wrong but is so vague as to create valid concern that such an approach could be abused and become tyrannical. As time goes by, his approach will refine itself into something like I've asserted above...so while I understand all of the concerns on this topic, they are unwarranted.

That's really the $64B question when it comes to Trump, isn't it?  Will he listen to advisors who try to bring his ideas back within feasible/reasonable limits, or will he be muleheaded and insist on the literal application of his ideas?  His pattern so far has been to say something outrageous, refuse to back off it, then end up with a non-apology that pretends he never said what he said in the first place, but actually ends up somewhere reasonable.  Personally, my vote is going to be completely dependent upon whether he shows that willingness to tailor ideas as the campaign progresses, and who he brings in as VP, and potential cabinet members.

Quote
Even if Mr Trump wanted to put in place such a broad restriction, it would fail to survive even the more liberal courts in the nation. He will out of necessity have to narrow the scope and focus of his restrictions....but at least he has the will to do that much in a way that focuses on foreign terrorism within the U.S. and will not, as Mrs. Clinton/Obama strive to do...seek to limit access to guns for the entire nation.

I don't agree with that.  Heller was a one-vote margin, and if we lose the Senate, I think there's a good chance Heller is gone even if Trump wins.  And in that case, the feds and states could do anything they wish with our gun rights.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2016, 05:48:37 pm »
So people here actually agree with what Trump said here?

Really?

I don't think it's a bad idea, as long as the list is sound.

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2016, 05:53:10 pm »
I don't think it's a bad idea, as long as the list is sound.

Congrats, Trump didn't say that, Hillary did.
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/13/481914444/hillary-clinton-responds-to-mass-shooting-in-orlando?ft=nprml

The problem with a watch or suspect list is there is absolutely zero due process, the accused does not have the right to a trial, and the 'sound list' is on the whim of bureaucrats. To see why giving the government this power is not a good idea, just review this and decide if this is part of a 'sound list'.
http://www.teaparty.org/dhs-brands-gun-owners-are-terrorists-18853/

When events like this happen, it is easy to get caught up in knee jerk reactions that do more harm than good. The government and authoritarian types sure don't let the crisis go to waste to push their agenda.


Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2016, 05:57:59 pm »
Congrats, Trump didn't say that, Hillary did.
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/13/481914444/hillary-clinton-responds-to-mass-shooting-in-orlando?ft=nprml

The problem with a watch or suspect list is there is absolutely zero due process, the accused does not have the right to a trial, and the 'sound list' is on the whim of bureaucrats. To see why giving the government this power is not a good idea, just review this and decide if this is part of a 'sound list'.
http://www.teaparty.org/dhs-brands-gun-owners-are-terrorists-18853/

When events like this happen, it is easy to get caught up in knee jerk reactions that do more harm than good. The government and authoritarian types sure don't let the crisis go to waste to push their agenda.

You make a good point... but if these "suspected terrorists" keep getting guns and killing, we will get much worse legislation than a program preventing terror list members from getting guns.

Offline kevindavis007

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,487
  • Gender: Male
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2016, 05:59:45 pm »
I don't think it's a bad idea, as long as the list is sound.


Here is the thing.. When was the last time the Government did anything that was sound??
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Ronald Reagan: “Rather than...talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems and make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit…earning here they pay taxes here.”

Offline DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,466
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2016, 06:01:42 pm »
Those same enormous coattails and the same MSM can't keep B.O. in line; how do you think they are going to keep a narcissistic demagogue in check?  They won't.

The MSM hates Donald Trump.   If he farts out of place, it will be headline news.

THAT will make a difference...together with an adversarial opposition party (DEMS)...and #nevertrumps piling on. 

A friendly MSM is why Obama gets away with everything.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2016, 06:02:27 pm »

Here is the thing.. When was the last time the Government did anything that was sound??

Protecting the public is part of the function of government. Government is a mess but it's preferable to anarchy.

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2016, 06:02:47 pm »
You make a good point... but if these "suspected terrorists" keep getting guns and killing, we will get much worse legislation than a program preventing terror list members from getting guns.

Where there is a will, there is a way. The Paris terrorists got military grade equipment, not just civilian firearms, in a country that has an almost complete ban on firearms.

All this 'watchlist' legislation will do is be used as a political weapon (per my second link above) to prevent law abiding citizens from getting firearms by putting them on random lists. Our government is so corrupt, you don't want to give them that power- even if you think 'your side' won't abuse it-- it will be abused.

This isn't an 'R' versus 'D' football game where you have to root for your team.  This is the battle between authoritarianism and liberty.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 06:04:36 pm by AbaraXas »

Offline DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,466
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2016, 06:03:54 pm »
There is no VIABLE choice for stopping the destruction of our Bill of Rights.  Your guy has already made clear that he has no regard for A1 or A2.  Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him in the primary.  There's your bed, lie in it.

Pulleeze......  :whistle:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline WAC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,904
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2016, 06:16:55 pm »
(((In November on ABC.....Trump responded, ....

“If somebody is on a watch list and an enemy of state and we know it's an enemy of state, I would keep them away, absolutely.”

So it sounds like Due Process is involved. "Known enemy of state", Not just on a watch list. Its in the same class as denying felons.

But that does not help the democrats smear trump. ))))


Because so much the press runs by selecting "bites" and making their own story of what candidates say it's just best to get it from the candidates by listening to them speak over time IMO.  But it looks like Trumps idea is pretty straight forward as Ii see it. I don't get any indication he's going after our rights, rather he views this as protecting citizens....which he's right.

As for using a watch list.....well the House wants to reform the way we're handling such things and so I believe changes to how these lists are made and regarded will be surely forthcoming.  People easily forget that no matter how our Politicans frame Islam terrorists have declared WAR against this country and we need to understand that they mean it....thus knowing they are here and ready to act I tend to think we're going to have to go with the flow to secure the country overall.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,295
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2016, 06:26:38 pm »
Where there is a will, there is a way. The Paris terrorists got military grade equipment, not just civilian firearms, in a country that has an almost complete ban on firearms.

All this 'watchlist' legislation will do is be used as a political weapon (per my second link above) to prevent law abiding citizens from getting firearms by putting them on random lists. Our government is so corrupt, you don't want to give them that power- even if you think 'your side' won't abuse it-- it will be abused.

This isn't an 'R' versus 'D' football game where you have to root for your team.  This is the battle between authoritarianism and liberty.

Suspected terrorists should not be able to buy guns, period. Otherwise the list is completely pointless.

That the list can be corrupted is another issue entirely. That may be true, but it does not change my statement in the first paragraph.

geronl

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2016, 06:59:06 pm »
Agree with Trump on this. People on watch lists should not get access to guns. Just makes responsible gun owners look bad IMO.

People are thrown on the list arbitrarily all the time. There is no due process involved. Many of the people on it are due to meta-data mining or had similar names to one that is flagged.

A 2007 report said at least 71,000 names were on the list wrongly.

Children as young as 7 months old have been on the list.

7 ways to end up on no-fly list: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/terrorist-watch-list_n_5617599.html

Injustice for those stuck on no-fly list: https://www.aclu.org/blog/no-fly-list-grows-along-injustice-those-wrongly-stuck-it

7 month old on no-fly list: http://www.upworthy.com/a-7-month-old-baby-on-the-no-fly-list-yup-but-thats-not-the-most-absurd-thing-about-it


geronl

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2016, 07:05:15 pm »
Suspected terrorists should not be able to buy guns, period. Otherwise the list is completely pointless.


The point is that being on a list does not make one a suspect. Nobody claims that these people are suspects.

Offline RoosGirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,759
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2016, 07:08:25 pm »
Pulleeze......  :whistle:

I know, it sucks, right?

geronl

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2016, 07:09:33 pm »
http://offtheblocknews.com/black-air-force-veteran-wrongly-defamed-as-isis-fighter-placed-on-no-fly-list/
Quote
A Muslim U.S. Air Force veteran who was placed on the “no fly” list and wrongly called a terrorist in conservative news reports has returned to the U.S.

In 2015 , The Intercept reported that Saadiq Long had been smeared as an ISIS fighter by the right wing “Pajamas Media”. Since that time, the U.S. government has “worked to secure Long’s release from a Turkish deportation center, gave him a waiver from the no-fly list to enable him to fly back home.”

http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2014/02/07/she-got-on-the-no-fly-list-because-the-fbi-checked-the-wrong-box/

Quote
Former Stanford graduate student Rahinah Ibrahim was mistakenly placed on the government’s “no-fly” list, as a suspected terrorist, because an FBI agent checked the wrong box on a form in 2004.

That news comes from U.S. District Judge William Alsup of San Francisco, who presided over a trial on Ibrahim’s suit to clear her name and allow her to fly to the United States, which has barred her from returning for nine years. She’s now a professor and dean of a college of design and architecture in her native Malaysia.

Much of the trial, the first ever involving a challenge to the no-fly list, was held behind closed doors because of the government’s insistence on secrecy. Last month Alsup issued a brief summary of his ruling, which found that the government had violated Ibrahim’s rights, has admitted that she poses no threat to national security and must allow her to apply for re-entry to the U.S. But he didn’t order her readmitted and said such decisions are within the government’s discretion.

http://www.komando.com/happening-now/265793/40-of-people-on-the-terrorism-watch-list-have-zero-terrorist-ties

Quote
The government has a list of over 680,000 suspected terrorists, and nearly half of them have no actual ties to terrorist organizations. The number of people on the list without ties - 280,000 - is larger than the number of suspects affiliated with al-Qaida, the Taliban, Hamas and Hezbollah combined!

While the government needs more facts to clearly state someone is a terrorist, they don't need much proof at all to put a person on the suspect list. This can lead to other consequences like being put on a no-fly list.

Offline RoosGirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,759
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2016, 07:12:16 pm »
Suspected terrorists should not be able to buy guns, period. Otherwise the list is completely pointless.

That the list can be corrupted is another issue entirely. That may be true, but it does not change my statement in the first paragraph.

Who gets to decide what makes someone suspected terrorist?

http://www.politico.com/story/2011/08/sources-biden-likened-tea-partiers-to-terrorists-060421

Offline sitetest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
  • #NeverEVERtrump. #Neverhitlery
Re: Donald Trump Has Called for Blocking Gun Sales to Terror Suspects
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2016, 07:15:57 pm »
So people here actually agree with what Trump said here?

Really?

No.

stumpy is a traitor against the US Constitution.
Former Republican.