Author Topic: Monckton: It’s Time For ‘Texit’ — Texas Should Secede, Thatcher Advisor Says  (Read 72545 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cowboyway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male
Well said, those who attack have weak arguments, fire off ad homs from behind the keyboard, they are such cowards to have an argument with any integrity.

My relatives fought in the civil war, they died for the South; no yeehaw local yoakum is going to intimidate me with their name-calling of others and fear of an open conversation and trying to make some topics off discussion when it doesn't suit them.   I'd welcome any moderator action per anyone who doesn't have an argument and just insults other people.

There's that whooshing sound of irony again...........................
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
The Official Record of the War of Rebellion, or the OR for short.  Courtesy of Cornell University.

My apologies for some of what has been said in this thread. There are still men that have full respect for the fairer sex and do not resort to name-calling.

Offline TomSea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40,432
  • Gender: Male
  • All deserve a trial if accused
I supported our actions in Iraq, I still do, we should have stayed here but that President Bush was weak on quite a few issues and hurt the country. Oh, yes, "now we want to secede". Just like when they wanted in the Union. But of course, history, if not convenient to be spoken of is not suppose to be talked about.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 01:24:53 pm by TomSea »

Offline Cowboyway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male

How patriotic, calling Abraham Lincoln criminal over the fourth of July.   :nono:


LINCOLN’S CRIMES

1. Lincoln waged a war that cost the lives of 620,000 Americans. Including the murder of 50,000 innocent Southern civilians.

2. He arrested several thousand Marylanders suspected of Southern sympathies, including 30 members of the State legislature, a US Congressman representing Maryland, the mayor and police commissioner of Baltimore, and most of the Baltimore city council. These political detainees were imprisoned in Fort McHenry and Point Lookout without trial, in many cases, for several years.

3. He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).

4. He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.

5. He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.

6. He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.

7. Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.

8. He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.

9. He blockaded Southern ports without a delclaration of war, as required by the Constitution.

10. He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.

11. He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Partys electoral vote.

12. He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.

13. He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.

14. He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

Want more?  Read Lincoln Über Alles: Dictatorship Comes to America by John Avery Emison

Nothing is more patriotic than the truth.
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Y'all can't even let this rest one day while we celebrate our nation's independence from Great Britain?  Give it a rest.

Offline Cowboyway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male
Y'all can't even let this rest one day while we celebrate our nation's independence from Great Britain?  Give it a rest.

What better topic to discuss on Independence Day than independence?
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
What better topic to discuss on Independence Day than independence?

Independence is one thing; refighting the war and slavery is another.

Offline RetBobbyMI

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,543
  • Gender: Male
Independence is one thing; refighting the war and slavery is another.
What about independence from federal taxation slavery?
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."  -- John Wayne
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.� ? Euripides, The Bacchae
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.� ? Laurence J. Peter, The Peter Principle
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.� ? Bertrand Russell, A History of Western Philosophy

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
What about independence from federal taxation slavery?

No, arguing - that is economic slavery. 

Offline Cowboyway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male
What about independence from federal taxation slavery?

Communist Manifesto

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

Offline austingirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,734
  • Gender: Female
  • Cruz 2016- a Constitutional Conservative at last!
To a future Texas independence!



I second that proposal.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline austingirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,734
  • Gender: Female
  • Cruz 2016- a Constitutional Conservative at last!
Well said, those who attack have weak arguments, fire off ad homs from behind the keyboard, they are such cowards to have an argument with any integrity.

My relatives fought in the civil war, they died for the South; no yeehaw local yoakum is going to intimidate me with their name-calling of others and fear of an open conversation and trying to make some topics off discussion when it doesn't suit them.   I'd welcome any moderator action per anyone who doesn't have an argument and just insults other people.

Your post is breathtakingly obtuse. You are the one insulting those who wish to return to the Founding Principles and assert their independence from an unconstitutional National Government that no longer represents their interests- just as the patriots did. You continue to vilify the South for slavery when it has been illegal for a hundred and fifty years and was the accepted practice in the colonies and an inhumane part of civilization for millennia. Lincoln was a tyrant wo subjugated the South and killed thousands of her finest sons. You continue to hijack this thread about the movement for Texas Secession despite the fact that slavery is not an issue today. I do not understand your motivation for persisting in your posts.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline austingirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,734
  • Gender: Female
  • Cruz 2016- a Constitutional Conservative at last!
LINCOLN’S CRIMES

1. Lincoln waged a war that cost the lives of 620,000 Americans. Including the murder of 50,000 innocent Southern civilians.

2. He arrested several thousand Marylanders suspected of Southern sympathies, including 30 members of the State legislature, a US Congressman representing Maryland, the mayor and police commissioner of Baltimore, and most of the Baltimore city council. These political detainees were imprisoned in Fort McHenry and Point Lookout without trial, in many cases, for several years.

3. He suspended the writ of habeas corpus without the consent of Congress (as required by the Constitution).

4. He illegally shut down and confiscated the printing presses of dozens of newspapers that had spoken out against him.

5. He re-instated and summarily promoted an Army officer who had been court martialed and cashiered by the US Army for war crimes.

6. He even had an arrest warrant issued for the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court because said justice refused to back his illegal actions.

7. Chief Justice Roger B Taney ruled that Lincolns actions were illegal, criminal and unconstitutional.

8. He invaded the South without the consent of Congress as required by the Constitution.

9. He blockaded Southern ports without a delclaration of war, as required by the Constitution.

10. He imprisoned without trial, hundreds of newspaper editors and owners and censored all newspaper and telegraph communication.

11. He created two new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Partys electoral vote.

12. He ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure his Parties victories.

13. He confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.

14. He had his Generals attack US cities full of women and children and burn them to the ground.

Want more?  Read Lincoln Über Alles: Dictatorship Comes to America by John Avery Emison

Nothing is more patriotic than the truth.

Lincoln was a tyrant and trampled State's Rights. He was responsible for many atrocities. He is certainly not to be celebrated on Independence Day or any day.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline catfish1957

  • FJB!!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,037
  • Gender: Male
Lincoln was a tyrant and trampled State's Rights. He was responsible for many atrocities. He is certainly not to be celebrated on Independence Day or any day.

I dislike Lincoln, and other northern icons of that day, but I actually absolutely despise W. T. Sherman.  I would have loved to have been a confederate sniper that put one between his eyes.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Cowboyway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male
I dislike Lincoln, and other northern icons of that day, but I actually absolutely despise W. T. Sherman.  I would have loved to have been a confederate sniper that put one between his eyes.

Sherman got a western command after the war and wrote this to Grant about the Indians: "we must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children."
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
@DiogenesLamp
Just out of curiosity....next time I'm arguing with my wife, would you mind being my stand in?
 8888forgot


I always love a good argument,  but i'm not sure how much good I will be able to do you.   Wives opinions can trump all other considerations.   :)   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Please tell me that is not a serious question.  By your definition there can be no non-slave states because you seem to think Article IV forbids it, and history showed you that notion was completely wrong.



How does history show this?  From what i've seen from History,  the "free"  states simply refused to enforce that clause,  and did everything they could to aid in the breaking of it.   


My point is that if *that*  clause is enforced,   it becomes impossible to create a "free"  state.   History has not shown otherwise.   It has simply shown that people will ignore parts of the constitution they don't like.   




Congress makes all rules and regulations for the territories.  Congress could, under the Constitution, forbid slavery in the territories once the flawed Dred Scott decision had been overturned.


How?   By forbidding slaveowners from going there?   Can they do that?   I don't think they can do that.   

So how are they gonna do that?   



Any slave running away from its owner in a slave state who then ran to one of the territories could be apprehended and returned to its owner under the provisions of the fugitive slave laws.  No different than a slave who ran off to a free state and was apprehended.


The constitution does not say the owner must be in a slave state.  Presumably the owner can live anywhere he likes,   so long as the slave is bound to him by the laws of the state from which he came.   




Paranoia aside, the Republicans had made it clear in the years prior to the 1860 election that they would be challenging the Scott decision, and the South knew it.  And they also knew that their legal position was shaky at best.  Hence their rush to rebellion.


How does a party "challenge"   a decision by the supreme court?   Let me know,  because our party would probably like to "challenge"  roe v wade and other stupid and illegal decisions.   

As a question of law,  Dred Scott is mostly accurate.   You have to make up imaginary law to counter the valid legal claims in that case.   It's an ugly decision,  but it is clearly correct within the scope of law that existed at that time.





And that is what I am talking about, the position of the aggressor.  The Southern secession was motivated by slavery and their war was to further that goal.


You can keep repeating that piece of propaganda,  but it isn't working anymore,  at least not on me.   The south already *had*  slavery,  so they didn't need to secede in order to keep it.   Lincoln was falling all over himself to reassure the south that "if you like your slavery,  you can keep your slavery" to paraphrase another race-obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois who became President. 




The South seceded to get more of the revenue from the products their slaves produced,  instead of allowing it to filter through New England hands where large cuts were taken out of it by the New England Robber barons and the Government.   


So let's keep the history accurate.   





Which means the North consumed the vast majority of the imports and therefore provided the lion's share of the tariff revenue?  Can we at least agree on that?


Not at all.  In order to "consume"  something,  you have to pay for it,  and the evidence has clearly shown that the North wasn't paying for most of that trade,   the South was.   The North was simply taking a big cut of it.   Call it "vigorish"  and you will have a more accurate picture. 







Then.  Why.  Weren't.  They?  Why did the south consume the majority of imports?


Here is that going around in circles again.    Because the North (having a numerically superior representation in congress)  passed laws making it cheaper for the south to purchase Northern products instead of European products.   

The South *DID*  consume the majority of imports,  after they had been converted to money and used to purchase Northern made products because of the preference jiggered laws created by the Northern Majority representation in Congress.   



That seems to be the case.  A lot going out.  Not much coming in.


And that illusion is a factual impossibility.   Nobody gives away money for free,   but that is exactly what you are trying to claim was happening.   You are not that stupid,   and nor should you attempt to be that deceptive.    All that income was coming back to the South in a different form  after having been filtered through the hands of the New England financial interests,   and after they took their and the government's cut.   






Sold the cotton they had purchased from Southern plantations.  How do you think?



And the Southerners didn't do the same because they just don't like the thought of having extra money.   It couldn't be for some *OTHER*  reason,  such as the larger representation in Congress gave the Northern wolves the legal means to shear the Southern sheep.     It couldn't be that preferential laws made it economically feasible for people living in New York to handle trade at a greater profit than the people actually producing the product.   

Yeah,  that makes perfect sense.   Southerners just don't like having extra money from their products.   They wanted to make sure their Northern brothers were well taken care of,  so they voluntarily let them do all the paperwork and shipping necessary to get that  35% or more profit on what the Southerners produced.   

And people think the milk of human kindness is dead!   





Quote
Their export trade was 1/4th of the South's,   yet they somehow ended up with enough foreign currency to pay for 3/4ths of the imports?    How does that work?   

Pure freakin' magic apparently.  According to your scenario.


You say "magic",  I say "skimming and graft."   Potato,  Potahto. 


No,  the "magic"  is the belief that anyone would consent indefinitely to allowing people to skim a huge chunk of their profits because they used their numerical advantage to create laws that favored the continuation of their skimming of other people's profits.   








Quote
    Well with the value of Northern exports being 1/4 of the total,  how was the North getting it's hands on sufficient foreign currency to cover the costs of those imports,  the tariffs of which funded the US government?   

How do you think?


By manipulating US Law until it was favoring them in all financial transactions dealing with the European trade,  as I have said numerous times,  and in numerous different ways.   


They created an artificial monopoly through the use of their numerical advantage in the congress.   The same sort of thing that people since Adam Smith have been warning about.    It is the natural tendency of businessmen to "rent seek"   and usually they turn to government to create or enforce their artificially created revenue streams.   



It was a manifestation of the old adage:   

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what they will have for dinner."   




They sold the cotton they bought from the South.  Why is that so hard to believe?


Because such a thing makes no economic sense without laws creating artificial conditions to make such a methodology profitable.    And that is what actually happened.   



‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Slavery is all you anti-secessionist ever talk about.  Your arguments against secession always go to the topic of slavery in order to try to gain moral superiority.  Your entire argument against secession can be summed up thus:  slavery bad, Southrons seceded over slavery, therefore secession bad.  It's a straw man argument and you know it. 



Another aspect of this is the notion that the right to be independent requires those leaving to have approved morality.  There are no conditions on the inherent right to "dissolve political bonds"   and to institute new government following such principles as are most likely to insure their happiness.   


They keep the conversation on "slavery"  because there was so much bloodshed that they want to believe it was for some noble purpose.   They vehemently reject any challenge to this fiction because the alternative is so horrible;   That they were monsters who subjugated another people for no better reason than because a leader told them to do so.   

Funny thing,  this was predicted in the anti-Federalist papers. 



Quote
Thirdly, the absolute command of Congress over the militia may be destructive of public liberty; for under the guidance of an arbitrary government, they may be made the unwilling instruments of tyranny. The militia of Pennsylvania may be marched to New England or Virginia to quell an insurrection occasioned by the most galling oppression, and aided by the standing army, they will no doubt be successful in subduing their liberty and independency. But in so doing, although the magnanimity of their minds will be extinguished, yet the meaner passions of resentment and revenge will be increased, and these in turn will be the ready and obedient instruments of despotism to enslave the others; and that with an irritated vengeance. Thus may the militia be made the instruments of crushing the last efforts of expiring liberty, of riveting the chains of despotism on their fellow-citizens, and on one another. This power can be exercised not only without violating the Constitution, but in strict conformity with it; it is calculated for this express purpose, and will doubtless be executed accordingly.






‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Accusing other people of being hateful and now, making up the law that the people decide the future of the state.



Pardon me,   but according to the Founders,  it is God who made up that law. 



Quote
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.





Consent has to be given for any state wishing to secede per the Constitution.


No more so than did the United Kingdom have to give consent.   God's laws trump the consent  of man.   

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Well said, those who attack have weak arguments, fire off ad homs from behind the keyboard, they are such cowards to have an argument with any integrity.



They are not weak arguments,   they are clear and convincing arguments that she has yet to put a dent in.   


You are entitled to your own opinions,  but you are not entitled to your own set of facts.   The facts clearly demonstrate that the South was producing the vast bulk of export trade to Europe,   and the North was collecting virtually all the return trade and imposing the tariffs on it.   


In other words,  the 1/4th of the population represented by the South,  was paying 75%-87% of the cost of running the government,    plus financing the vast bulk of the shipping traffic headquartered in New England.   


You don't like it,  but the fact is an independent South would cost New England perhaps $400 million dollars in lost revenue,   and their pocket book told them they had to stop the South from taking what they believed to be their trade,   or else they would lose vast sums of money.   



The "we fought to end slavery"   stuff is just propaganda,  and very successful propaganda at that,   but the reality appears to be that the Union launched a war against the South to keep from losing the bulk of their European trade,  worth nearly  500 million in 1860 dollars.    (In 1860 GDP was 4.5 billion for the entire United States)   



‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
How patriotic, calling Abraham Lincoln criminal over the fourth of July.   :nono:




I have always noted the irony in Lincoln's greatest speech.   He harkens back to the Declaration of Independence, (1776 was 87 years earlier)   when a group of slave owning states broke away from a larger Union and were led by a slave owning general from Virginia,   just as Lincoln "four score and seven years"  later,  was doing everything in his power to stop the  exact same effort at independence as did King George III.   


The South was trying to be independent.   For this occasion,   Lincoln was playing the role of a psychotic King George,   who though thought of as a "mad king",   still had more sanity than to kill 750,000 men to force his will on others.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Y'all can't even let this rest one day while we celebrate our nation's independence from Great Britain?  Give it a rest.


I actually cannot conceive of a better day to point out the hypocrisy of the United States not living up to the very principles that birthed it's own existence. 


The Southern states did nothing more than what the original 13 states did to England.    The difference was that King George III was far less willing to shed so much blood over the issue of independence.   


But then he didn't have to answer to the wealthy New England power brokers.   



The 4th of July represents that day in 1776, "four score and seven years"   before another despotic ruler stopped other state's efforts to gain independence.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,660
Independence is one thing; refighting the war and slavery is another.


We aren't trying to refight the war which wasn't about slavery,   but was instead about finances,  and the threat an independent South posed to New England power broker's money streams.   


We are trying to correct the record,  and rehabilitate the idea that Independence is a God given right for all people,  and that no one may tell you that you can't have it unless they consent to letting you go.   


Independence is what we celebrate today.   Not the "consent of man"  independence,   but the God given right of Independence.   


The principle that our nation was founded upon should have required the Union to allow the South to leave in peace.    It was despotism which prevented it. 



‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline austingirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,734
  • Gender: Female
  • Cruz 2016- a Constitutional Conservative at last!

I have always noted the irony in Lincoln's greatest speech.   He harkens back to the Declaration of Independence, (1776 was 87 years earlier)   when a group of slave owning states broke away from a larger Union and were led by a slave owning general from Virginia,   just as Lincoln "four score and seven years"  later,  was doing everything in his power to stop the  exact same effort at independence as did King George III.   


The South was trying to be independent.   For this occasion,   Lincoln was playing the role of a psychotic King George,   who though thought of as a "mad king",   still had more sanity than to kill 750,000 men to force his will on others.

Well said.
Principles matter. Words matter.

Offline catfish1957

  • FJB!!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,037
  • Gender: Male
Y'all can't even let this rest one day while we celebrate our nation's independence from Great Britain?  Give it a rest.

Give it a rest?  Hitlerly is getting off scot free, and we are supposed to be proud of  of this country?.  Do we really want to be part of a country this corrupt?

The quicker Texas gets out the union the better.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.