Can Social Conservatism Survive Trump?

[don-o]

I'm gonna bow out of this - Today is the Sabbath, and I need to get back to God time.
 

Blessings. 

[TomSea]

Look at what our fellow "conservatives' just did to the closest thing to Reagan in 30 years and tell me that again with a straight face.

Let's not forget, Reagan signed a big abortion bill out in California. But I guess that's different.

 http://www.nationalreview.com/article/223437/reagans-darkest-hour-paul-kengor-patricia-clark-doerner

Maybe this is just spin though.

[INVAR]

I think long term. I understand that our chances to fix this are long gone.

Sadly - most refuse to accept this reality that history teaches with absolute and perfect clarity.  One, is that you cannot stop tyranny via civil means - and nearly everyone in this country is still stuck on a vain and false belief that just electing the next president and congress is going to magically return us to yesteryear.

Once you accept, as I have that this is a war, then you think like a soldier. Strategically.

Both kinds - Spiritual as well as political/physical.  My faith is in the Kingdom of God to come and I am repenting of putting that faith for years in a nation of men.  I no longer have faith in the institutions of men because human nature has not changed in 6000 years of recorded human history.  Prepping to survive what is coming while looking forward to the Kingdom of God is where we need to focus our attentions.

It is not going to be solved until we outnumber them.

Today and for many many years going forward, we are not going to outnumber them. We are not going to convert them. We are not going to retrain, reeducate or re-anything them. They HAVE MADE THEIR CHOICE. Period. End of. Finito.

That is more true than most are willing to allow themselves to even contemplate.

Look, Americans are not reproducing enough to maintain the current civilization.  Foreigners and Mexicans who have been imported into the country by our government have no desire to assimilate into an American culture that no longer is being taught or maintained.   They are outbreeding us in some instances 12 to 1.  The math is not hard.  The leaders of this land have purposely engaged in REPLACING the current citizenry with aliens and religions hostile and anathema to what established and maintained us for 200 years.

So unless Conservative Christian Americans begin breeding like rabbits, we are going to suffer the same fate we are watching unfold in Europe, albeit with several groups of aliens demanding to have their way with us.

I believe what God's Word has to say about nations of people who are called by His Name that discard their God and His Ways for their own hedonism.  They self-destruct and are then consumed and destroyed by their enemies with their remnants scattered to the four winds.

And I firmly believe we were a nation of God's people that abandoned Him.
[/quote]

[INVAR]

I'm gonna bow out of this - Today is the Sabbath, and I need to get back to God time.
I leave you with this brief repast, and will return late tonight or tomorrow to pick it up again.

Shabbat Shalom.  I guess I could be spending the time of rest more wisely than discussing politics also.

But I'm trying to get everyone to consider God and our heritage in all this, so not a total breaking of the Day.

[Norm Lenhart]

Let's not forget, Reagan signed a big abortion bill out in California. But I guess that's different.

 http://www.nationalreview.com/article/223437/reagans-darkest-hour-paul-kengor-patricia-clark-doerner

Maybe this is just spin though.

Lets not forget that he regretted it the rest of his life and fought as president to not compound his error.

Using Reagan to attack from the left? I thought that was an FR exclusive.

[Norm Lenhart]

Sadly - most refuse to accept this reality that history teaches with absolute and perfect clarity.  ....

That is more true than most are willing to allow themselves to even contemplate.

I understand that people are into denial. It's an awful thing to contemplate the reality we are faced with. But...All denial does at this stage is contribute to the problem. Everytime either of us bring these arguments up, we are confronted with denial of the premise. It makes it easier for people to stay in their world of 'what they want things to be' rather than the world we're in.

Even if we turned our ranks into a baby factory, it wouldn't matter because UNTIL people start facing the reality we live in and accepting it, all they will do is ingrain the same destructive kick the can patterns on their kids. And thus the problem only continues.

[OldSaltUSN]

It'll survive, it just won't be in the Republicrat Party

 

Agreed.  I sincerely believed that after 2008 and 2012 - when the GOP couldn't field a single conservative candidate against an as obviously flawed President as Obama, that it was "over" for the GOP.  When the "new" GOP Congress began aping the progressives in terms of both policies and deceitfulness, that put a stake in it.

However, I had no idea, no concept whatsoever, that the GOP would die because leading "conservatives" would effectively support a populist, amoral RINO as the parties standard bearer.  Talk about discrediting themselves (e.g. Palin)!?   They chose Trump over principle and historical experience.

So, yes, the GOP is dead.  It will, in fact, go the way of the Whigs.  No one will remain tied to this dead corpse after Trump loses 50 states, the Senate and severely emasculates the House to boot.

Folks, it will be painful to see the White House fall to another progressive Democrat, and to see the USSC by a 5-4 anti-constitutionalist majority begin to turn the nation inside out at a rate more rapid that even Obama.  However, it will happen.  It'll happen if Trump is President, it'll happen if a Democrat is President.

2016 will be the start of the new conservative alternative, in whatever form it takes.   The few conservative politicians left, such as Cruz will have to leave the GOP to make it happen.  Cruz is trying to control the GOP platform, but even if that's possible when he's ostracized by the Trump GOP, it won't alter or effect Trump's decisions.  Cruz will have to admit it's a lost cause, and either leave politics or leave the GOP, or both.   

If conservative politicians leave the GOP now, I think it's a 4 year, 1 term Democrat regime, after which the new party will field successful candidates.  If they wait until after the election, it'll take a generation for the new party to become viable.   The GOP decline will be rapid after November 2016, regardless.

It's sad.  It's not what I want, or ever wanted, but the conservative movement is dead.  Stick a fork in it.

By the way, the Libertarian's are just more of the same moral-relativism crowd.   They aren't the solution.   The growth of the Libertarians will simply be a longer path through the wilderness before there can be a new consolidation of political party around conservative principles.

Will the republic even survive the next eight years?  Honestly, I doubt it.   With the Fed debasing the currency, and thereby, eroding the value of property and assets of a lifetime for most Americans, plus the wholesale demobilization of American forces, and aggressive foreign threats over the horizon, I foresee economic collapse and war.  I'm sorry for the country.  I'm sorry for my kids.  It's not logical to expect anything else.

[OldSaltUSN]

Let's not forget, Reagan signed a big abortion bill out in California. But I guess that's different.

 http://www.nationalreview.com/article/223437/reagans-darkest-hour-paul-kengor-patricia-clark-doerner

Maybe this is just spin though.

Lets not forget that he regretted it the rest of his life and fought as president to not compound his error.

Using Reagan to attack from the left? I thought that was an FR exclusive.

Aww.. come off it.  I'm so tired of your lies.  You know that Trump is just like Ronald Reagan.  Hell, he's the second coming of conservativism!

Why I still remember those grand old days of Reagan talking about "Lyin George", and how he was the hit of the campaign when he said "I like the kind of war hero's who WEREN'T shot down with the loss of their crew ...".   Lyin' George Bush lost the election right then and there.

Yep, those were priceless quotes by the Gipper, and Trump is just a chip off the old blockhead.

/end sarcasm

 

If you're gonna lie, tell a whopper, 'cause the big one's are a whole lot more believable .... who said that first, again ??

[RetBobbyMI]

It would only take 5 US Senators to leave the Republican party right now to usurp the power of the GOP, as well as the DEMRats, leave both parties below the 50 member majority.  If they were to do that, even declaring their independent status or as another party such as Constitution, they would have tremendous power over the body.

[Norm Lenhart]

It would only take 5 US Senators to leave the Republican party right now to usurp the power of the GOP, as well as the DEMRats, leave both parties below the 50 member majority.  If they were to do that, even declaring their independent status or as another party such as Constitution, they would have tremendous power over the body.

There arent 5 Senators who think enough about their country to do that. Maybe three. On a good day. Maybe.

[OldSaltUSN]

I understand that people are into denial. It's an awful thing to contemplate the reality we are faced with. But...All denial does at this stage is contribute to the problem. Everytime either of us bring these arguments up, we are confronted with denial of the premise. It makes it easier for people to stay in their world of 'what they want things to be' rather than the world we're in.

Even if we turned our ranks into a baby factory, it wouldn't matter because UNTIL people start facing the reality we live in and accepting it, all they will do is ingrain the same destructive kick the can patterns on their kids. And thus the problem only continues.

Well, maybe "we" would be successful if "we" curtailed the abortion factory.  It's not just the progressives who abort their children, divorce multiple times, and live hedonistic lifestyles.   

Yes, America's downfall is pegged to it's post-Christian society.  As person posted on one blog, "It's over.  We won, you lost.  In November, your world changes forever".   I couldn't even tell if they were a progressive, or a Trumpkin.  Doesn't matter, they have the same core "relative-moral" values, with the same result.  The GOP progressives are happy they got rid of the social conservatives, while the Democrats are equally happy the conservative GOP is gone.   

I kind of sound like "Debbie downer", here, folks, but I look at the logic of the situation.   We won't see the country change until ruin, starvation, and enemy action turns the country inward, reviewing "what went wrong".   The country's voters in polls claim the country is "on the wrong tract", but the direction those voters want to take the country is further and faster down the path of ruin. 

The country needs to turn back to the culture that birthed it, and sustained it for 250 years.   That culture wasn't secular humanism, or the "Deism" tripe, either.  Truth is absolute, knowable, and eternal.

"A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it, But knowledge is easy to him who understands. "  -  Proverbs 14:6

"There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."  -  Proverbs 14:12

"Wisdom rests in the heart of him who has understanding,
But what is in the heart of fools is made known."

"Righteousness exalts a nation,
But sin is a reproach to any people."  -  Proverbs 14:33, 34

[Norm Lenhart]

Well, maybe "we" would be successful if "we" curtailed the abortion factory.  It's not just the progressives who abort their children, divorce multiple times, and live hedonistic lifestyles.   

The people that voted Dem, Voted Romney and Back Trump obviously do not want the abortion industry curtailed. If they did, they'd not have voted to support it's backers or in Trump's case, campaign on behalf of the guy that wants to keep them around.

People get all indignant but it is what it is. When you back someone, you back 'all' that someone. No one gets to 'split the baby' so to speak. There is no check box on the ballot saying "I only support X with my vote for this candidate.

If that upsets the snowflakes, good. It's the truth. They need a dose of reality and perhaps they'll reevaluate their support of evil men and their actions.

We all screw up. None are perfect. But people have no excuse because they KNEW what these people are going in.

[TomSea]

Well, maybe "we" would be successful if "we" curtailed the abortion factory.  It's not just the progressives who abort their children, divorce multiple times, and live hedonistic lifestyles.   

Yes, America's downfall is pegged to it's post-Christian society.  As person posted on one blog, "It's over.  We won, you lost.  In November, your world changes forever".   I couldn't even tell if they were a progressive, or a Trumpkin.  Doesn't matter, they have the same core "relative-moral" values, with the same result.  The GOP progressives are happy they got rid of the social conservatives, while the Democrats are equally happy the conservative GOP is gone.   

I kind of sound like "Debbie downer", here, folks, but I look at the logic of the situation.   We won't see the country change until ruin, starvation, and enemy action turns the country inward, reviewing "what went wrong".   The country's voters in polls claim the country is "on the wrong tract", but the direction those voters want to take the country is further and faster down the path of ruin. 

The country needs to turn back to the culture that birthed it, and sustained it for 250 years.   That culture wasn't secular humanism, or the "Deism" tripe, either.  Truth is absolute, knowable, and eternal.

True, I have no doubt that Romney/Ryan would have defunded Planned Parenthood; one can look at Reagan, he signed an abortion bill as governor of California but became very pro-life.  So, I found Romney/Ryan to be trustworthy.

[TomSea]

The people that voted Dem, Voted Romney and Back Trump obviously do not want the abortion industry curtailed. If they did, they'd not have voted to support it's backers or in Trump's case, campaign on behalf of the guy that wants to keep them around.

People get all indignant but it is what it is. When you back someone, you back 'all' that someone. No one gets to 'split the baby' so to speak. There is no check box on the ballot saying "I only support X with my vote for this candidate.

If that upsets the snowflakes, good. It's the truth. They need a dose of reality and perhaps they'll reevaluate their support of evil men and their actions.

We all screw up. None are perfect. But people have no excuse because they KNEW what these people are going in.

Name-calling, that's the truth, ad homs done in a cowardly manner. What are snowflakes?

I'm from the Land of Enchantment, the Roadrunner state; anyone know where that is?

[Norm Lenhart]

Name-calling, that's the truth, ad homs done in a cowardly manner. What are snowflakes?

I'm from the Land of Enchantment, the Roadrunner state; anyone know where that is?

Well if the shoe fits, Wear it.

You think the guy that BBQ's dead babies for profit is trustworthy so obviously you arent the best person to rely on in a discussion about social conservatism.

Is that direct enough? Because I can get rather more specific in how little I think of the humanity of people who defend Mitt Romney.

[TomSea]

Well if the shoe fits, Wear it.

You think the guy that BBQ's dead babies for profit is trustworthy so obviously you arent the best person to rely on in a discussion about social conservatism.

Is that direct enough? Because I can get rather more specific in how little I think of the humanity of people who defend Mitt Romney.

Apparently, we have someone who is stating lies and that shoe fits you.

Sorry you are misinformed, I will clarify any lies told but since you talked about trolling Russian threads, I ponder.

It is a sin to lie. Your BS was exposed; and is something Mother Jones, a left wing publication published.

What are snowflakes since your argument is so weak you resort to name-calling.

[OldSaltUSN]

CANNOT restrain myself....Must post

Wow, how'd you find my picture?!  I thought I had deep-sixed that "wild weekend" picture forever.  Dang inter-web-thingy, never forgets!   

I guess I'd better get my butt walking again, or I'm going to look like that guy in no time flat.

[TomSea]

Said poster seemed to say we could vote for the first conservative in 40 years; guess what, Reagan signed pro-abortion legislation but some people may just stick to their shallow weak fabricated position.

[Norm Lenhart]

Apparently, we have someone who is stating lies and that shoe fits you.

Sorry you are misinformed, I will clarify any lies told but since you talked about trolling Russian threads, I ponder.

It is a sin to lie. Your BS was exposed; and is something Mother Jones, a left wing publication published.

What are snowflakes since your argument is so weak you resort to name-calling.

Good luck with that.

Romney profited from the abortion laws he created. Mother Jones is not the arbiter of truth. Deal with it.

[TomSea]

Good luck with that.

Romney profited from the abortion laws he created. Mother Jones is not the arbiter of truth. Deal with it.

Deal with it, Romney wasn't involved in any company incinerating babies.

You can play tough hard conservative at TOS; but hopefully, there is more decorum here.

Az will go just the way of Texas, New Mexico and California, a minority majority state.

[Norm Lenhart]

Deal with it, Romney wasn't involved in any company incinerating babies.

You can play tough hard conservative at TOS; but hopefully, there is more decorum here.

Az will go just the way of Texas, New Mexico and California, a minority majority state.

And you can play sniveling leftist. Romney was an investor in Stericycle. Stericycle incinerates medical waste. The aborted kids from Romney's laws went to Stericycle, among other places, for incineration.

Hopefully 'here' is a place where truth and facts outweigh the 'opinion' of a guy attacking Reagan from the left and citing Mother Jones as a source of unbiased journalism/truth/fact.

[OldSaltUSN]

This nation, that just four years ago filled the state houses with TEA Party Patriots?

Proves to me that the only thing that the TEA Party had in common was "anti-Obama".  In fact, I credit the "big tent" of the Tea Party for bringing us the "Trump the Messiah" supporters.  Christian social conservatives united with Libertarians, who united with GOP economic conservatives, who united with Reagan Democrats, giving us the wonderful blended stew, which Obama united with GOP-e regulars to kill off using direct government action and combined with direct cooperation by GOP-e politicians holding top Congressional leadership positions.

Now, the Tea Party has split into oblivion, and as there was never a common ideological bond between the various parties, no "glue" exists that can restore it.

Just as the Trumpkins persist in their blind faith that in "THE DONALD must prevail" myth, many social conservatives believe that somehow the Reagan conservative coalition will be reassembled once the various parties discover how bad "the fake" conservative policies are.   

It takes tremendous personal privation to change one's entire world view.  The USA is a secular humanistic country, across most population segments.  That's why "gay marriage" and "LGBT everything else" were so readily absorbed into the American mainstream culture - as though a whirlwind has encompassed the entire population of American, within only a couple of years.    American's had long ago left the "absolute" divine, "revealed knowledge" terminal for other points in the philosophical spectrum, leaving them well prepared ..... for anything else.  Many American's have found "anything else" in Trump or Sanders, with a pseudo religious fever.

This is America 2016, folks.  It's real.  It's not going to get better in a few months or years.  We're going to go down hard, before we can pick ourselves back up.   There has been one, exactly one, country that I can think of which has done this, and it's the country of Israel, as Biblically prophesied right down to the year.  I know of no such prophesy about America.  Doesn't mean I don't hope things turn around, but I don't expect it.

[OldSaltUSN]

I am up. And I don't back down, not for nothing.
If I have to charge hell with a bucket of water all by myself, I will. I'd just hope that one of y'all, standing around here, would hold my coat.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-Y7MAASkg

Cute little ditty. 

You're talking like a Trumpkin if you're calling myself, Norm, and others like us, quitters and losers.    My position is quite simple.  "Get over it", as you said.  The GOP is lost.  The "conservative movement" has been eviscerated.  In military terms, we foot soldiers answered the call to battle, fought the war and fought it well.  We left it all on the field, only to have our "leaders" forward turn over their swords to the enemy, and abandon the field, while our "compatriots" to our rear, directed "friendly" artillery on our own positions.   If Palin, for example, felt compelled to support Trump as the only effective alternative to Trump, and then went back to Wasilla to wait out the action, I could understand, given what she's been through.  But she's enthusiastically joining the "Lyin Ted" Trumpkin train.   People who supposedly "had our backs" fired at our backs.

We're saying "no mas".  Not playin' by your rules anymore.   I can't tell you how many conservatives have opted for new cold weather retirement homes, like Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Oklahoma, and so forth, FLEEING THE INSANITY that this country has become.  I'm talking about fighters, too, both military combat veterans as well as civilian veterans of the cultural wars.  We've chosen an organized retreat, and to protect our families, over some quixotic battle to restore this once conservative country back to a Constitutional Republic. 

As Norm has alluded, and I have previously written, it takes considerable personal privation to turn this culture around, and in my Judeo-Christian perspective, nothing but a turn towards historic Christian ethics will make a difference.  The change has to happen in the personal, not simply the economic, philosophical, or political.   I don't see that happening in this country any time soon, and neither, I believe, does Norm.

If the Constitutional Party makes a run at it, if Ted Cruz, for example, suddenly became the standard bearer (and there are others who could do it), I'd be on board with both feet.   Otherwise, I'm going to make my vote count to hurt Donald and his supporters.   I'm not "quitting", e.g. sitting home, nor am I voting for THE DONALD simply because he has eliminated any other alternative within the GOP.   When I get my lazy rear end downtown, I'm re-registering, probably as an independent.  I'm done with the GOP forever.  I won't vote down ballot GOP, either.  If someone wants to earn my vote, it'll take a whole lot more than (R), (C), or (L) next to their name, to get it.

I'll prep, load, practice, and prepare for war - literal war.  I'll help my family, (but my kids are already miles ahead of me, anyway).   I will no longer involve myself in useless political games.

I will answer the call, but not the call of Trump, or Boehner, Ryan, or  McConnell , or other midgets and fakes like Issa, Gowdy, et. al.. 

If you call that "quitting", so be it.   I call it orderly retreat, consolidating forces, redirecting fire, and "going to ground" in the face of forces with superior numbers. 

[TomSea]

Hold the phone, Norm. I get it that we didn't get a lot of Conservatives. And I get that many betrayed the cause. But the Liberty Caucus in the house went from 20some to 50some...

And they DID stand in the breach. They DID stand to defend. They are nearly a force to be reckoned with.
And many of the state houses are likewise rebelling.

All is not lost... Unless we do capitulate.
That ain't in my nature.

I agree, though Trump's not my first choice, I think border security is essential. That is his mainstay of support. The whole Southwest is undergoing a demographic change which in itself, I don't mind but when it means more Democratic votes, it's worrisome, New Mexico, Texas, California, soon Arizona all to be minority majority states.

In turn, I think Governor Walker has done well in Wisconsin, needs to straighten out a few rough edges. Has enacted a lot of pro-life legislation among of course, his other well-known feats.

[OldSaltUSN]

Said poster seemed to say we could vote for the first conservative in 40 years; guess what, Reagan signed pro-abortion legislation but some people may just stick to their shallow weak fabricated position.

Redirect.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,209068.msg902243.html#msg902243

Half-truth's are half lies.  Implying that EITHER Trump OR Romney were like Reagan, because Reagan signed a law that was later "reinterpreted" and abused to kill 100's of thousands of infants, is dishonest.  What Reagan did was similar to what happened when Nixon signed law creating the EPA.  Yes, Nixon was an establishment "moderate", but neither he nor the Congress that passed the EPA legislation had any inkling that it would be used to confiscate property of farmers, ranchers, other citizens who's been told that the tiny pond, stream, watering hole, or other water on their property was part of the "navigable waterways" governed by theh EPA's mandate. 

Reagan was anti-abortion, even when he signed that 1967 law.  He just didn't envision the implications of allowing a future generation which argued the meaning of the word "is", a foot in the door to abort future generations of Americans.

No, Romney was a pro-abortion, pro-single-payer healtcare progressive, so is Trump, but Reagan was not - ever - that - progressive - politician.

When people use Reagan to justify their own progressive candidate, it's because their candidate's credentials "obviously" cannot stand on their own.   No one needs to associate Cruz to Reagan, for one easy example, when Cruz supports the same conservative values Reagan did, and has done so consistently.