Author Topic: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch  (Read 18574 times)

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #150 on: May 20, 2016, 08:15:23 pm »
And to punctuate a point I made earlier about how black people *HATE*  to be compared with @ueers and transgenders:


I fought for civil rights. It is offensive to compare it with the transgender fight.





Quote
We endured 400 years of slavery, lynchings and the bite of police dogs

Transgender people can drink from whatever water fountain they please



Read the whole thing:


http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article78706432.html
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #151 on: May 20, 2016, 08:28:52 pm »
This crap has come to TBR?

We're looking more and more like TOS every day.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2016, 08:29:53 pm »
Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Shall we kill those who divorce and remarry?


It is a matter of dispute whether or not divorce and remarriage is "adultery."   The Torah allows for divorce,   so apparently it's not a sensible comparison. 


But you left some things out of context with your biblical quote.   


Quote
11  And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

13  If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

14  And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

15  And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

16  And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

17  And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2016, 08:31:07 pm »
Just to get back to the original subject of the thread, my issue is that this appointment appears to have been motivated by the specific desire to advance a particular social agenda -- or perhaps social agendas plural -- in the military as opposed to simply pushing for military efficiency/effectiveness.  My personal preference is that a Service Secretary have served in the military themselves, which Fanning didn't.  Otherwise, he's apparently served only in Democratic Administrations (Clinton's and Obama's), and was recently quoted as saying: “I believe that the American people have a right, as we come out of two long wars, to feel that they can spend less, invest less in national security forces,” he said.  Given how small the Army currently is, and where the budget is already, I think that's wildly irresponsible.

This guy doesn't read "warfighting" to me at all.  He reads social activist/bureaucrat.  And sending the message to an Army already suffering morale issues that making gays feel welcome is one of our top priorities seems completely messed up to me.  Almost a deliberate sharp stick in the eye to military traditionalists in the Army.


Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2016, 08:31:27 pm »

It is a matter of dispute whether or not divorce and remarriage is "adultery."   The Torah allows for divorce,   so apparently it's not a sensible comparison. 


But you left some things out of context with your biblical quote.

Take this crap elsewhere.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #155 on: May 20, 2016, 08:32:05 pm »
As much as I think women must have the right to vote, it's pretty clear we're worse off for it simply as a matter of results.


But that is a fact which is offensive to modern sensibilities,   so many people will not want to contemplate it.   If you get the chance,   take a look at that video  (Women and Civilization)   that I posted up above.   It is insightful and profound,   though not politically correct at all.   

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #156 on: May 20, 2016, 08:35:43 pm »
This crap has come to TBR?


And what "crap"   is it to which you are referring?   



We're looking more and more like TOS every day.


There are plenty of admirable things about that other site.   There are many intelligent and dedicated people over there doing what they believe to be right.   


And yes,  there are group-think people over there too.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2016, 08:40:10 pm »

But that is a fact which is offensive to modern sensibilities,   so many people will not want to contemplate it.   If you get the chance,   take a look at that video  (Women and Civilization)   that I posted up above.   It is insightful and profound,   though not politically correct at all.

Well, regardless of how offensive it is, is there any point in discussing it?  I mean, as a sheer matter of morality/consent of the governed, women should have the right to vote even if they tend to vote in ways I don't like. So it a fact that appears to be offered for no reason other than to offend modern sensibilities.  Now, I'll admit, if you're deliberately trying to antagonize some modern militant feminists purely for amusement, that's something for which I have respect.  But otherwise...what's the point of bringing it up?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 08:41:26 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #158 on: May 20, 2016, 08:41:13 pm »
Take this crap elsewhere.


You are free to change the channel.   You can take the advice they always give us regarding gay behavior and not look at it. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline flowers

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #159 on: May 20, 2016, 08:42:51 pm »
Just to get back to the original subject of the thread, my issue is that this appointment appears to have been motivated by the specific desire to advance a particular social agenda -- or perhaps social agendas plural -- in the military as opposed to simply pushing for military efficiency/effectiveness.  My personal preference is that a Service Secretary have served in the military themselves, which Fanning didn't.  Otherwise, he's apparently served only in Democratic Administrations (Clinton's and Obama's), and was recently quoted as saying: “I believe that the American people have a right, as we come out of two long wars, to feel that they can spend less, invest less in national security forces,” he said.  Given how small the Army currently is, and where the budget is already, I think that's wildly irresponsible.

This guy doesn't read "warfighting" to me at all.  He reads social activist/bureaucrat.  And sending the message to an Army already suffering morale issues that making gays feel welcome is one of our top priorities seems completely messed up to me.  Almost a deliberate sharp stick in the eye to military traditionalists in the Army.

 :hands:


Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2016, 08:47:17 pm »
Just to get back to the original subject of the thread, my issue is that this appointment appears to have been motivated by the specific desire to advance a particular social agenda -- or perhaps social agendas plural -- in the military as opposed to simply pushing for military efficiency/effectiveness.  My personal preference is that a Service Secretary have served in the military themselves, which Fanning didn't.  Otherwise, he's apparently served only in Democratic Administrations (Clinton's and Obama's), and was recently quoted as saying: “I believe that the American people have a right, as we come out of two long wars, to feel that they can spend less, invest less in national security forces,” he said.  Given how small the Army currently is, and where the budget is already, I think that's wildly irresponsible.

This guy doesn't read "warfighting" to me at all.  He reads social activist/bureaucrat.  And sending the message to an Army already suffering morale issues that making gays feel welcome is one of our top priorities seems completely messed up to me.  Almost a deliberate sharp stick in the eye to military traditionalists in the Army.



It is unquestionable that this was done as a political statement and not as a result of the best interests of the Nation or the Military.   

So was this: 




So was appointing a "gay"  ambassador to a Muslim country.   They ended up killing him.   Now who would have predicted something like that might happen? 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2016, 08:49:56 pm »

And what "crap"   is it to which you are referring?

Your crap. The same crap that I detested about TOS.   

I couldn't give three s#its about your opposition to homosexuality or what Bible verses you want to use to support it. This site has never been populated by your kind... the kind who revels in using words like you use and quoting Leviticus.

Quote
There are plenty of admirable things about that other site.   There are many intelligent and dedicated people over there doing what they believe to be right.   


And yes,  there are group-think people over there too.

This isn't one of the admirable things about TOS, or any site.

Crap like what you post is used to paint all conservatism as knuckle-dragging hate-filled rabid Fred Phelps clones.

You demean the true beauty of conservatism, which is expanding freedom and promoting higher ideals.

There are lots of topics to discuss regarding this topic that can be discussed while leaving your Biblical thoughts on the subject out.

There's a reason why there's no Religion forum on this site.

Keep it that way.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline RedHead

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2016, 08:56:08 pm »

It is a matter of dispute whether or not divorce and remarriage is "adultery."   

" And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." Mark 10:11-12

I don't see the room for dispute there.

But you left some things out of context with your biblical quote.

For example?

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2016, 08:57:23 pm »
Well, regardless of how offensive it is, is there any point in discussing it?  I mean, as a sheer matter of morality/consent of the governed, women should have the right to vote even if they tend to vote in ways I don't like. So it a fact that appears to be offered for no reason other than to offend modern sensibilities.  Now, I'll admit, if you're deliberately trying to antagonize some modern militant feminists purely for amusement, that's something for which I have respect.  But otherwise...what's the point of bringing it up?


It's a little complicated to explain,  but i'll give it a go. 


In school  they have various subjects  such as Physics,   Chemistry,   Biology,  Geology,  Mathematics, etc.   

We have become accustomed to seeing them as different subjects,   but the truth is that they  are all the same subject.   The boundaries we place between them are in our minds,   but do not exist in reality.   

So to is it with these issues of culture and demographics.   They are not disparate topics linked together,  they are a continuous weave of  different aspects of the whole.   




Also antagonizing feminists is kinda fun.  :) 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2016, 09:00:13 pm »

You are free to change the channel.   You can take the advice they always give us regarding gay behavior and not look at it.

This is the channel that I've been watching for years channel. You show up a minute ago and decide to change the programming.

Look I get it... you don't like gays.

I'm pretty sure that they don't like you either, and it's safe to say that they also couldn't care less about your opinion of their behavior.

Just as you don't care for theirs.

But, it means absolutely nothing what you each think about one another, because in this country, it's OK for them to be gay and for you to be a knuckle-dragging hate-filled rabid Fred Phelps clone.

I suggest that you go find a nice shady spot somewhere in Fire Island, and hold up signs about the impending doom of all gay people. They'll take issue with your posters and you guys can work out your differences there while leaving the rest of us alone to enjoy discussing the evils of Donald Trump with a heavy side of no Leviticus quotes.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2016, 09:01:44 pm »
I don't agree with DL on this issue, but I do think he should be allowed to state his viewpoint on this forum.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2016, 09:02:34 pm »
I don't agree with DL on this issue, but I do think he should be allowed to state his viewpoint on this forum.

There is no Religion forum in TBR, and that is by deliberate design.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2016, 09:05:55 pm »
Your crap. The same crap that I detested about TOS.   

I couldn't give three s#its about your opposition to homosexuality or what Bible verses you want to use to support it. This site has never been populated by your kind... the kind who revels in using words like you use and quoting Leviticus.


You mean it has long lacked diversity of thought?   Well good then,  i'm helping it grow. 




This isn't one of the admirable things about TOS, or any site.

Crap like what you post is used to paint all conservatism as knuckle-dragging hate-filled rabid Fred Phelps clones.


At this point I think it no longer matters.   Once you adopt Liberal positions,   you are Liberal,  and it doesn't matter what you want to call yourself.   



You demean the true beauty of conservatism, which is expanding freedom and promoting higher ideals.

There are lots of topics to discuss regarding this topic that can be discussed while leaving your Biblical thoughts on the subject out.


Well now you have identified the fact that you haven't bothered to read the discussion up to now,  you just jumped in at the end and started preaching at me.   This did not start out as a discussion about what religion has to say on the issue,   that came up in the course of it,  and I am just as happy to argue the topic on any grounds the opposition should chose.   


Certainly the evolutionary scientific ground is even less hospitable for this behavior than the religious/culture grounds.   


There's a reason why there's no Religion forum on this site.

Keep it that way.


Social Justice Warrior needs his "Safe Space"?   Afraid mean ideas might confuse people or something?   



‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Relic

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2016, 09:06:02 pm »
There is no Religion forum in TBR, and that is by deliberate design.

Does that mean no reference to religion anywhere?

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2016, 09:10:08 pm »

It's a little complicated to explain,  but i'll give it a go. 


In school  they have various subjects  such as Physics,   Chemistry,   Biology,  Geology,  Mathematics, etc.   

We have become accustomed to seeing them as different subjects,   but the truth is that they  are all the same subject.   The boundaries we place between them are in our minds,   but do not exist in reality.   

So to is it with these issues of culture and demographics.   They are not disparate topics linked together,  they are a continuous weave of  different aspects of the whole.

This reminds me of what one of my professors once referred to as the "Kings of England" response to an essay question.  Listing all the Kings of England just to have something to fill up the page for an essay question for which you have no answer.  In other words, none of that explains why you'd bring up women having the right to vote as a bad idea.   And likewise, pointing out that Leviticus demands the death of homosexuals also seems needlessly antagonistic since you're not even advocating that happen. 

Quote
Also antagonizing feminists is kinda fun.  :)

No argument there.  Although here, we are all presumably more on the friendly side than the "it's fun just to piss them off" side.  Just my two cents -- I just don't see this particular line as being productive for anyone involved.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 09:12:54 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2016, 09:10:14 pm »
There is no Religion forum in TBR, and that is by deliberate design.

I'm with you Luis.

I've been here since the first hours of inception and I am happy to say we have never "descended" into arguments over whose religious views will best gain us salvation.  I am happy for that.  Nothing will change the tenor of this place faster than "I know God better than you know God."

I will stick with my own brand of Faith. 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 09:11:57 pm by Lando Lincoln »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2016, 09:10:19 pm »
Crap like what you post is used to paint all conservatism as knuckle-dragging hate-filled rabid Fred Phelps clones.

 :thumbsup:
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2016, 09:10:55 pm »
Does that mean no reference to religion anywhere?

I'm all for that. The Religion Forum at TOS was nothing but constant bickering, fighting and insults.  And of course there was the never-ending Mormon bashing.

Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Relic

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2016, 09:13:58 pm »
I'm all for that. The Religion Forum at TOS was nothing but constant bickering, fighting and insults.  And of course there was the never-ending Mormon bashing.

You might be right. Politics is enough of a powder keg.

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch
« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2016, 09:16:40 pm »
Does that mean no reference to religion anywhere?

No, I don't see it in an absolute way.  In discussion, most anything can enter the discourse.  Most of us know when the debate turns stridently religious.  At least, I'd hope.

There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck