Author Topic: Cruz: Those who bolstered Trump 'will bear that responsibility going forward'  (Read 122310 times)

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Offline the_doc

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What will God do exactly? I thought the founders were Deists who basically believed God stayed out of men's affairs?

Actually, the overwhelming majority of our Constitution's Framers were Christians--most of them pretty solid Christians, it appears. 

Of the 55 delegates who showed up for business, only three were supposedly Deists, the most important of these being Benjamin Franklin--who had an enormous respect for Christianity and who was actually a good friend of Jonathan Edwards and an admirer of George Whitefield.  (Jefferson was inarguably a Founder, but not a Framer. He was in Europe at the time of the Convention.)   The religious affiliations of some of the delegates are obscure, but I recall one seemingly credible reference that claimed that in addition to the three Deists, there were three Quakers, three Roman Catholics, one Lutheran, and one Jew.  All of the rest were what we would nowadays call evangelicals.   Most of these evangelicals had higher education of the sort that was ordinarily reserved for ministers and which training was understandably influenced greatly by Christian theology as integral to a real education. 

The American Anglicans (eventually called Episcopalians) comprised the biggest single faction of the evangelicals.  The next largest group, I believe, was the Congregationalists.  Presbyterians and Methodists made up the rest.  The Protestants' influence in the U.S. Constitution was so conspicuous that more than one secular historian has reportedly declared that the Father of our Republic was the Sixteenth Century Geneva Reformer John Calvin.  (For instance, the political philosopher John Locke--who had perhaps the most profound influence on both the Framers and the Founders of our nation--based much of his own work in political philosophy on the Anglican William Chillingworth's defense of Protestant Christianity entitled The Religion of the Protestants.)

Interestingly, the Presbyterians had been so prominent in the American Revolution (only a few years earlier, of course) that the British P.M. said "Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson."   According to one source, the overwhelming majority of colonels in the Continental Army were actually Presbyterian elders.  (For that matter, Jefferson appears to have lifted much of his language for the Declaration of Independence directly from the earlier Mecklenburg Declaration, a fierce document drafted by Scottish Presbyterians in North Carolina.)   

Notice that you don't hear any of this in college classes on American history.  (Something spiritually weird has been going on here.)

Offline Mechanicos

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Thank you Sink!
Very well said :patriot:
I op on IRC many many channels as part of a server team. Religion and Politics channels are where one goes to argue. Usually very active large number of nicks. Any channel with politics or Christian in the channel name gets tons of trolls and arguments. Fun times. As the joke goes. "You can't fight in here! This is a war room."
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Offline RetBobbyMI

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That would just split the GOP vote in those states.
Who's talking about states.  I was talking about the US Senate.  A quick neutralization of the two parties is easier to achieve than not.
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Offline INVAR

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@INVAR

While I am largely in agreement with INVAR, yours libertybele, is near the eternal hope of rejuvenation in this American Republic.

It starts in the precincts, grows in the state houses, blossoms in the Governorship.
One of the things that this election season has discounted is the TEA Party. And it is worth the fight. All is not lost. The power of the fed is at the whim of the states. We HAVE TO keep fighting the good fight to overturn.

And if not, there is yet one more step - revolution - if no other step remains.

And while I am commiserate with you INVAR, I will not give it up until there is not a single vestige of our liberties existing, and I and my compatriots have no breath left within us. Until that day, hope remains.

Our hope should not be in the institutions of men, because a people who are not governed by God will be ruled by the tyranny of men - that is a fact of history and constant warning from our Founders and Framers.

That said, excluding the most vital component which is the foundation of liberty from the discussion (makes discussing a viable physical solution neuter in terms of effectiveness), refusal to comply with tyrants and active resistance to abiding their decrees and refusing our support for their existence is what our course should be.  This federal government no longer has lawful legal authority over a righteous people.  They lost that authority when they made their newfound morality higher than that of The Almighty's Authority and when they sought to force it upon The Lord's people.     Refusal to submit to a lawless and Constitutionally unmoored Kleptocracy is every Patriot's duty.  Without God and scripture as our Sovereign, we have no claim to the Higher Authority which is where Our Rights come from and where justification for refusing the king originates.  We can claim the Constitution all the day long - and it will have null effect on the institutions of men that have determined they can ignore it, redefine it and make decrees that usurp it making the document irrelevant.  Which in all practicality it is now.    In addition, the risk of ruin and penalty is not something most would even allow themselves to contemplate.   

Case-in-point: I've watched entire church cultures buckle and bow to the homosexual agenda out of fear and loss of offerings and tax exempt status.  Money is what most value today - and risking wealth and property is not what this people today are willing to do in terms of defying tyranny.  Most people still refuse to call Mordor on the Potomac what it is, or even acknowledge that we live under a meddlesome tyranny.  They are comfortable where we are now, or think they have found ways to prosper or cheat the 'system' to their benefit.  Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God according to Benjamin Franklin.

The problem is, the few who do resist are made quick and very public examples of - or the Beast waits patiently to ensure anyone caught defying them is rounded up and imprisoned or worse.

Central Planning tyrants will not permit defiance from States, Governors and legislative bodies to their edicts.  They state that course of action was settled in 1865 and we have no recourse except to submit, or the Courts continuously tell the States they have no authority to refuse what Mordor demands, or what their people overwhelmingly vote for.

Refusal to comply with The Beast will earn the iron fist if financial coercion and threat does not do the trick.  It is when defiance and refusal to comply spreads among a people - the Beast always attempts to impose compliance by force, and thus the mask of legitimacy and benevolence is removed - and the tyrant fully revealed.   Such justifies the actions necessary to throw off such government and provide new guards for their future security.

It is stupid and foolish to expect corrupt, vain and evil men to comply with the rule of law and the will of the people they hold in contempt and ignore.  Whatever Articles of restriction we may support and pass - such oligarchs and their corrupted institutions that threaten the power of so many will never permit our attempts to restrain them succeed without the application of force.

It is also wise to note that in any such conflict situation - the Four Horsemen ride: false messiahs; war; famine & disease; then death.  They sap the will to maintain the cause amongst even the hardiest people who will gladly trade family and friend for a promise of bread in such times.

But such times may be necessary in the near future.  At this point, not to restore what we've lost - but simply to survive what they intend to do.  All of this does not even address outside events that the consequences of weakness and treason from the leadership may unleash upon us.

Counting the cost is necessary.  But to paraphrase Churchill, if we are not willing to do it now when the cost is relatively painless - the cost is going to be unbearable for us later - and we will be forced to because we will have no other choice except to be slaughtered or live as slaves.

The bottom line is, we cannot vote tyranny out of power which seems to be the limit of what this people will consider in terms of defying it.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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Our hope should not be in the institutions of men, because a people who are not governed by God will be ruled by the tyranny of men - that is a fact of history and constant warning from our Founders and Framers.

Then it could be said that it is a fruitless endeavor to align oneself with those few who ARE governed by God, which I must necessarily reject out of hand, lest we must ask ourselves what we are even doing here...

No, when there is a breach in the wall, and the sheep are escaping, the prophet stands in the breach, preventing further losses, and calling those that left back to safety - Such should be the position and action of those of us who are called by His Name. And I for one will not give up the field, but I will sally forth, redoubling my efforts, knowing full well that where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. If for no other reason, speaking truth will afford those that are lost an opportunity to heed the call. Every opportunity must be seized, every lost lamb sought after.

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[...] refusal to comply with tyrants and active resistance to abiding their decrees and refusing our support for their existence is what our course should be.  This federal government no longer has lawful legal authority over a righteous people. 

And that is happening in leaps and bounds - We have not reached the point of no return, where good is called evil - But even now, the people rebel, supporting what is good against the onslaught. Chik-fil-A gives me hope. Target's precipitous earnings drop gives me hope. Burgeoning home-schoolers and homesteaders give me hope. Liberal churches bleeding members and Bible believing churches growing in leaps gives me hope.

Push has not yet come to shove (though it is admittedly drawing nigh on that moment), yet even now, resistance, nascent though it is, is forming up. And the more people reach that 'aw, hell no!' , the more people will seek out truth. And so it goes.

In financial lingo, we're playing the short game - but there is wealth even in that.

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They lost that authority when they made their newfound morality higher than that of The Almighty's Authority and when they sought to force it upon The Lord's people.     Refusal to submit to a lawless and Constitutionally unmoored Kleptocracy is every Patriot's duty.  Without God and scripture as our Sovereign, we have no claim to the Higher Authority which is where Our Rights come from and where justification for refusing the king originates. 

I understand and sympathize with your point - where I differ is in when the frogs realize they are being boiled. Those who have principles to rely upon, and the reasoning it begets, predict the boiling and either never get in the pot in the first place, or hop out as son as their feet get warm. Some take longer than others, liking the warmth of the water - but as things get uncomfortable, many will remember the things their fathers told them and become suspicious... thus coming to the reality that a mighty leap is all that will save them.

This is just now starting to heat up... many will come to see the truth.

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We can claim the Constitution all the day long - and it will have null effect on the institutions of men that have determined they can ignore it, redefine it and make decrees that usurp it making the document irrelevant.  Which in all practicality it is now.    In addition, the risk of ruin and penalty is not something most would even allow themselves to contemplate.   

And such is the downfall of every republic - But whether it finally suffocates American individualism and independence (a thing not found in past republics) remains to be seen... And as ruin and penalty become ever more unavoidable, so the edge is sharpened, and we come ever closer to watering the root of our liberty.

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Case-in-point: I've watched entire church cultures buckle and bow to the homosexual agenda out of fear and loss of offerings and tax exempt status.  Money is what most value today - and risking wealth and property is not what this people today are willing to do in terms of defying tyranny. 

And yet whole new branches spring up in orthodoxy - Those who will not bend the knee. The Messianics (of which I am one, you might recall) were almost non-existent ten years ago, and now they are everywhere. Another ten years, and they will be a massive bulwark, steeped in the Word, living Torah, unplugged from schools and dependence on the system... It's pretty hard for Uncle Nanny to influence that.

American churches are being winnowed, there is no doubt - YHWH is separating the wheat from the chaff. What is left will be strong and pure, and ready to stand. The rest will predictably die on the vine.

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Most people still refuse to call Mordor on the Potomac what it is, or even acknowledge that we live under a meddlesome tyranny.  They are comfortable where we are now, or think they have found ways to prosper or cheat the 'system' to their benefit.  Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God according to Benjamin Franklin.

I disagree - I think many, many are uncomfortable, just not far enough along to resist. And one must take into accounting the propaganda that keeps them blind - many are becoming wise to it. It is surely coming to a nexus point - but that's just a bit down the road yet.

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The problem is, the few who do resist are made quick and very public examples of - or the Beast waits patiently to ensure anyone caught defying them is rounded up and imprisoned or worse.

That will only go so far. They cannot impose that which they cannot enforce.

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Central Planning tyrants will not permit defiance from States, Governors and legislative bodies to their edicts.  They state that course of action was settled in 1865 and we have no recourse except to submit, or the Courts continuously tell the States they have no authority to refuse what Mordor demands, or what their people overwhelmingly vote for.

Again, that will only go so far. They cannot impose that which they cannot enforce. Just try gun control in the Rockies. Not anywhere near going to happen. The States, from MT and ID all the way to Texas would would rebel.

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It is stupid and foolish to expect corrupt, vain and evil men to comply with the rule of law and the will of the people they hold in contempt and ignore. 

Exactly right - which is why we must fight to elect Conservatives - full blooded and rock-ribbed. No more lesser evils - No more politicians, only statesmen, who understand and will preserve their oath. To do anything otherwise is to acquiesce. And that hope, no mater how diminishing and small, is all we have left in the ballot.

And if the ballot box is no longer sufficient to protect our liberties, then there is one box left in our possession... And when the time comes I think you will find more folks than you know that are ready to stand. That is the hope that is in me for this nation.

But if our doom is as you say (and it could certainly go that way), Then there we are, and we will have to deal with it - or they will, because if it goes that far, I am fairly certain that I will not be here long to witness it, and I dare to say that you would not be either.

Sorry to be so long in replying, I actually read you a while ago, but I find it hard to find something I've read previously unless someone keeps it BTT. That is the reason for my tardiness, and I thank you for your well written reply.



Offline INVAR

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The Messianics (of which I am one, you might recall) were almost non-existent ten years ago, and now they are everywhere.

From one Sabbatarian to another: Shabbat Shalom!
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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From one Sabbatarian to another: Shabbat Shalom!

Yes! Not quite yet here in the northern Rockies - I still have hours to go get my Sabbath food and settle in... What a blessing the Sabbath is! it is my favorite day... much anticipated!

Shabbat Shalom friend, and pray for the Peace of Jerusalem!

Offline RaceBannon

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yep...

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Offline olde north church

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Cruz was treated like a red-headed stepchild by the GOP establishment, the DEMS, Fox News  (in particular Sean Hannity) and the MSM. Ironically, the liberal media treated him at times better than conservative news. I find it quite disheartening and appalling when a member of our party stands up and defends our rights, and freedoms, including religious liberty, of "We the People" under the Constitution and is greatly chastised, ridiculed and attacked for doing so.  Cruz is absolutely 100% correct, everyone who is responsible for the rise of Donald Trump will bear that responsibility going forward.  I find it interesting that many members of Congress are now very reluctant to be associated with Trump and some are declining to be his VP.  That speaks volumes.  My question is, where were they when they very well could have easily voiced support for Cruz?  When Cruz came back to the Senate, he was warmly received and applauded; certainly a change of tune.

Fifteen other candidates competed against Trump.  None of those candidates were as vile and vulgar towards each other as Trump was to them.  Yet the masses accepted his vulgarity, anger, lying and verbal abuse towards others.  If we simply take a step back and look at the huge difference in character alone between Cruz and Trump it is equally disheartening that the masses would chose a bully over a gentlemen to lead our country and to set an example for our children. They chose someone who obviously lacks moral character over someone of great integrity.  What does this say about the mindset of his supporters?  To think that this is what newly acquired voters are drawn to is frightening.  It indicates that we have become a society of bullies, liars, and cheaters who verbally abuse one another and that is now acceptable.  All I can say now, is God, please help us!

#Never Trump  Don't blame me.  I support Cruz.

Good, I'm sure there'll be a nice cold stool at the end of "Grumble's Tavern".  Winners don't like losers.  Deleted by MOD

You have been warned multiple times about using such terminology.  It stops now. Mod
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 01:16:10 pm by Mod1 »
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online libertybele

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Writing in a candidate on the ballot (if available in your area) or voting 3rd party may deny either Trump or Hillary the majority of votes needed (269) in order to get the nomination; then the decision goes to the House.  Highly unlikely that it will happen, but I can't vote for either one.

#NeverTrump
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Good, I'm sure there'll be a nice cold stool at the end of "Grumble's Tavern".  Winners don't like losers.  "Swingin' Dildo Teddy"
Trump winning the nomination doesn't make any of his supporters "winners."  It only makes Hitlery a winner.  Congratulations!

Offline Henry Noel

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@INVAR

While I am largely in agreement with INVAR, yours libertybele, is near the eternal hope of rejuvenation in this American Republic.

It starts in the precincts, grows in the state houses, blossoms in the Governorship.
One of the things that this election season has discounted is the TEA Party. And it is worth the fight. All is not lost. The power of the fed is at the whim of the states. We HAVE TO keep fighting the good fight to overturn.

And if not, there is yet one more step - revolution - if no other step remains.

And while I am commiserate with you INVAR, I will not give it up until there is not a single vestige of our liberties existing, and I and my compatriots have no breath left within us. Until that day, hope remains.

That's so true. You've got to start locally and branch out. A fish rots from the head, but a tree grows from the roots up.
Gee, it feels great to be a gangster!

Online libertybele

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Good, I'm sure there'll be a nice cold stool at the end of "Grumble's Tavern".  Winners don't like losers.  "Swingin' Dildo Teddy"

The biggest losers are the American people.  Trump and Hillary will continue this country down the same path of destruction that we are on and Cruz is correct; Those who contributed to the rise of presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump will have to "bear that responsibility going forward."
                                         

Don't blame me I support Cruz.  #NeverTrump
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 01:01:27 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Henry Noel

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Trump winning the nomination doesn't make any of his supporters "winners."  It only makes Hitlery a winner.  Congratulations!

I've never quite understood this fascination by Trump supporters with "winning." What good is winning when the prize is a metaphorical sack of manure?
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Offline olde north church

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The biggest losers are the American people.  Trump and Hillary will continue this country down the same path of destruction that we are on and Cruz is correct; Those who contributed to the rise of presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump will have to "bear that responsibility going forward."
                                         

Don't blame me I support Cruz.  #NeverTrump

Hide the fact you supported Cruz.  Burn all papers.  Delete all postings.  Destroy all campaign literature connecting yourself from him.  It's the only thing which will prevent your descendants from rending their garments in shame.  He would have surely sold them into bondage.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online libertybele

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I've never quite understood this fascination by Trump supporters with "winning." What good is winning when the prize is a metaphorical sack of manure?

Exactly.  I'm trying to understand why they think voting for one sack of manure will be better than voting for the other sack of manure. Manure attracts a lot of flies.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline RetBobbyMI

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Except ... the voting public would also have to change their affiliation as some states are closed primary states.  While I understand the premise, it is unlikely to happen and not feasible.
Well, then those in those states should push for change. In either case, one has to determine if the support the left (Dems AND Repubs) or the constitution.  The GOP has abandoned its traditional principles and values.  So if one wants the leftist values of the GOP or DemPub unity party, then by all means, stay.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."  -- John Wayne
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.� ? Euripides, The Bacchae
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.� ? Laurence J. Peter, The Peter Principle
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.� ? Bertrand Russell, A History of Western Philosophy

Offline roamer_1

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That's so true. You've got to start locally and branch out. A fish rots from the head, but a tree grows from the roots up.

Yep. And one of the grave impacts from electing this fruit loop to lead the party is the effect it will have on the down-ticket TEA Party candidates.

Such opportunity... Right down the drain.

Offline the_doc

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Such opportunity... Right down the drain.

EXACTLY.

Online libertybele

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Hide the fact you supported Cruz.  Burn all papers.  Delete all postings.  Destroy all campaign literature connecting yourself from him.  It's the only thing which will prevent your descendants from rending their garments in shame.  He would have surely sold them into bondage.

I continue to proudly support Ted Cruz.  Trump will go down in the history books as the Hitler-like demagogue who destroyed the GOP.  Cruz will go down in the history books as the honorable Constitutionalist who fought for "We the People" and religious liberty.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Sanguine

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Sorry but I'll need more advice than to "pray".

You've got to listen, too.

Online libertybele

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I'm not discussing doctrine or catechism.  I am discussing faith and the Christian religion in the exact same manner the Founding Fathers themselves discussed it when debating and arguing about establishing the nation.

Or does the mere mention of The Creator and Christianity so offend you that you seek any mention of it to be banished and prohibited?
[/quote

 :amen:  Those that find the mention of 'God' or 'Jesus Christ' in a country that was founded upon Christian principles is very unsettling as well as those that find a Consitiutional Conservative  too far to the right!  Like it or not this country was founded upon Christian principles and the Constitution is the cornerstone of this country.  Straying away from both is why this country is in the mess that it's in.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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but I can't vote for either one.

#NeverTrump

Why not state it again in case any new members missed it from all your previous incantations.  :silly:

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I've never quite understood this fascination by Trump supporters with "winning." What good is winning when the prize is a metaphorical sack of manure?

I don't consider the 2nd Amendment, secure borders, fair trade and the security our the country a sack of manure.

Offline Henry Noel

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I don't consider the 2nd Amendment, secure borders, fair trade and the security our the country a sack of manure.

Nor do I. But any old lout can say "second amendment, secure borders, fair trade and the security of our country." It's easy. You just open your mouth, let the air out past your vocal cords, and move your tongue and lips.
Gee, it feels great to be a gangster!