Free Republic Founder: #NeverTrumperism Is a Losing Proposition – Will No Longer Be Tolerated

[L9teen]

I heard this analogy recently. Constantly being told you have to choose between the lesser of two evils is like telling your kids if you are going to steal a candy bar, be sure to steal the smaller one. Then you can tell the person you stole the candy bar from that you chose the lesser of two evils, and they'll praise you for it.

I heard this analogy, wish I could find the actual screencap of it...

Voting for Trump because he's not Hillary, is akin to jumping out of the 19th floor window, because it's not the 20th floor window.

Also, this one is good too

[L9teen]

Good quip. 

I would further elucidate the dilemma of 2016 voting choices as follows:  We all understand the dilemma of choosing between the lesser of two EVILS.  But there is a difference between an EVIL (i.e., a privation of the good) and a DEVIL (a bona fide spiritual monster).  I have always said that Christians, of all people, should understand that we must refuse to choose between the lesser of two DEVILS.  (Spiritually speaking, it is obviously safer to refuse to participate--leaving the outcome of our refusal in the Lord's hands [where it already rests anyway].)

When we understand this faith-based ethic, we discover steel in our spiritual backbones.

[geronl]

According to Steyn, at least there is a chance for good under Trump,

based on what...

Nothing.

"...can't be as bad as..." is the worst excuse for a vote I ever heard.

[Norm Lenhart]

What is it they say in investing? Past performance is not indicative of future results.

There has never been a situation quite like this, and Trump isn't exactly the candidate the establishment dreamed of having nominated.

I get it, you're an FR refugee, and you're steeped in the culture that says you must prove you're more conservative than anyone else. You are a "pure" conservative, no doubt. However, you have a choice. It's either Clinton or Trump. I'll bet you any amount of money you can manage, that if Trump and Clinton are the nominees, and neither dies or is put in jail, that one of the two of them will be elected.

It really is a choice of the lesser of two evils. But, there is an odd chance that Trump could pleasantly surprise us. There will be no surprises with Hillary.

Whats that they say about history? That those who forget it are doomed to repeat it...And how we burned in the camps thinking if we had...and a whole bunch more.

Look. I get it. You are steeped in a culture where standing on principle is bad, people that stand on principle are bad and a mans actions take second place to the thinkers projections onto him.

I also get that for Trump supporters, having this FR influx makes you upset about turf and all that other high school level crap. But I will note you did not dispute a single thing I said.

[geronl]

[  He couldn't get his Clean Power Act through, they've held up his immigration plan, they've refused to let him close Gitmo, they've denied general revenue funds to bail out ObamaCare, etc..

 

He has given billions to solar and wind, bankrupted coal companies...... our borders are completely open and hardly anyone gets deported (except Middle east Christians), Gitmo is being emptied, he is freeing them a few here and there and the courts will do the rest for him.

Obama is still getting what he wants.

[L9teen]

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

[Norm Lenhart]

Yes.   You're wrong.

While the GOP Congress hasn't defunded laws that were passed by Congress before it was controlled by Republicans, they have refused to pass a great many other things that he's wanted.  That's why Obama has been forced to use sketchy Executive Orders rather than getting the actual legislation that he's wanted.   He couldn't get his Clean Power Act through, they've held up his immigration plan, they've refused to let him close Gitmo, they've denied general revenue funds to bail out ObamaCare, etc..

That's very clearly not getting 100% of what he wanted.

 

No, I'm very correct. Show me the end of Obamacare. Show me a defunded Planned Parenthood. Show me no giveaway to Iran. Show me no gay marriage. Show me a Keystone Pipeline. Show me debt reduction. Show me a single major issue that the GOP has not rolled over on.

[mystery-ak]

I respect Mark Steyn a lot and am forced to agree with his position here.  We know what we would get with Hillary and we can't afford it.

It's a throw of the dice with Trump but, despicable as he is, he might be a better president.

(this is from a die-hard who is still hoping Cruz somehow gets the nomination at the Convention)

Word...I cannot not vote with the chance of the Clinton Crime Family occupying the WH again...

[L9teen]

Yes.

Everyone has a breaking point. This cycle I hit mine.

The last two elections gave me enough reason to support the GOP candidate, so (in my mind) my voting for McCain and Romney was justified.

Not this time. In fact every fiber of my being is telling me that both choices are wrong, and because of that I will take no part in elevating wrong to the level of POTUS.

I actually hope that I am dead wrong and that the political instincts that have served me so well for so many years have somehow dulled with time. I don't think so, but I hope so.

The thing is that if I am wrong, if Trump beats Hillary and turns out to be the savior of the Republic his supporters believe him to be, I will humbly accept being wrong, be grateful for all he does for the country and cede the point.

On the other hand, if his supporters are wrong, and he is the man that I believe that he is, his being elected could feasibly be more destructive to the nation, the GOP and conservatism in general than Hillary and her leftist ideology could ever be.

[Relic]

Whats that they say about history? That those who forget it are doomed to repeat it...And how we burned in the camps thinking if we had...and a whole bunch more.

Look. I get it. You are steeped in a culture where standing on principle is bad, people that stand on principle are bad and a mans actions take second place to the thinkers projections onto him.

I also get that for Trump supporters, having this FR influx makes you upset about turf and all that other high school level crap. But I will note you did not dispute a single thing I said.

Because it's a simple proposition. Not an ideal situation, but the kind that real life, not pure conservatism offers.

This is not my turf, I have no stake here. The influx of posters is just more posters, some good, some bad, but I'm sure the management likes it.

I didn't take the time to play your game because it's a game without end. You reason, as best you can, that this is the time to flex your pure conservatism. I think you're wrong. We'll find out soon enough.

If Clinton is elected, we'll see what happens, and then you, and others who are pure conservatives can come tell us all how Trump would have done the same things, or some other rot.

[Henry Noel]

I heard this analogy, wish I could find the actual screencap of it...

Voting for Trump because he's not Hillary, is akin to jumping out of the 19th floor window, because it's not the 20th floor window.

Also, this one is good too

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

[the_doc]

I didn't take the time to play your game because it's a game without end. You reason, as best you can, that this is the time to flex your pure conservatism. I think you're wrong. We'll find out soon enough.

If Clinton is elected, we'll see what happens, and then you, and others who are pure conservatives can come tell us all how Trump would have done the same things, or some other rot.

If Clinton is elected and she does something awful--as she surely would--I doubt that very many of us NeverTrump folks would bother to claim that Trump would have done the same thing.  We will simply say "We warned you not to nominate Trump.  But you didn't listen.  So, Clinton's election and Clinton's actions are necessarily Trump's fault.  He disgusted far too many people." 

I, for one, am not interested in "flexing my pure conservatism" at this point.  I would even vote for a moderate against Hillary.  (Most of us NeverTrump supporters would, I suspect.)  But what Trump's supporters refuse to grasp is that we NeverTrump folks cannot conscientiously vote for a lying, slandering, vulgar egomaniac.  That is not a fault in us.  That is principled Republicanism.  it goes way beyond conservatism.  We cannot vote for a spiritual monster no matter what.          

[Silver Pines]

Hmmmm very interesting.   I think an audit in where the money is going needs to be done.

Thank you... it is a fantastic show. I have watched it from the beginning and I was hooked on it right away

I expect an audit might show some interesting things.  I could be wrong, but then again...

Yes, it's really very good, but I really won't be able to appreciate it unless I know what's happened in previous seasons, so I have some binging to look forward to.

[Silver Pines]

They appear to be having trouble with this quarter's fundraiser.

Shame, that.

I'm devastated.

Well...think I'll go have me some M&Ms.

[Norm Lenhart]

Because it's a simple proposition. Not an ideal situation, but the kind that real life, not pure conservatism offers.

This is not my turf, I have no stake here. The influx of posters is just more posters, some good, some bad, but I'm sure the management likes it.

I didn't take the time to play your game because it's a game without end. You reason, as best you can, that this is the time to flex your pure conservatism. I think you're wrong. We'll find out soon enough.

If Clinton is elected, we'll see what happens, and then you, and others who are pure conservatives can come tell us all how Trump would have done the same things, or some other rot.

Actually you have a couple more things badly wrong here.

First, there is no pure conservatism. There is simply 'conservatism'. Second, I have taken the same position since 2008. I made the last political mistake I will ever make voting for McCain to get Palin. And thus I learned my lesson.

You can elect all the lesser evil types you like. We see the result. We live it. Obviously if your way worked it would be ridiculously easy to quantify. Yet what do we see? We see math in action. When you keep compromising and putting more leftists in office, you get, and demonstratably we all GOT, more leftism running the country.

So if you think that yet another fear vote is gonna save the country when the historical record shows that it has done NOTHING but make matters worse, I really don't know what to tell you.

There always seems to be a reason with the lesser evil types to not stand on principle. And it manifests every 2 years. Why do you suppose that is? There are always claims of 'purity' and of "This is our last chance/most important election ever in the history of most important elections ever just like the last several most important elections ever. Do you ever get sick of these sky falling claims? Do you think collective amnesia sweeps in and blinds everyone to the very same pattern repeating?

Every election. Every election you pragmatics force your way through fear, false claims and repetitive catch phrasing and every year we get further and further from the ideals and government America was founded on. So when is good for you? When should we stop?

2 years ago your side told us we had to elect Jonbon and Mitch and Ryan because it was the most important election ever, they won and handed Obama every major issue he wanted. No different, aside from impotent protestations than what the dems would have on their own

2 years before that in the most important election ever, your team told America that we just had to elect the guy who profits from incinerating the dead babies his own laws as governor created. Then within 24 hours of the great Fail of 12, he turned on a dime and disavowed every bit of the outright crap he fed gullable right wingers and the GOP went on to give Obama every major issue he wanted and several smaller ones, telling us to keep our powder dry.

Notice the pattern?

Stop repeating it.

[INVAR]

I made the last political mistake I will ever make voting for McCain to get Palin. And thus I learned my lesson.

You can elect all the lesser evil types you like. We see the result. We live it. Obviously if your way worked it would be ridiculously easy to quantify. Yet what do we see? We see math in action. When you keep compromising and putting more leftists in office, you get, and demonstratably we all GOT, more leftism running the country.

So if you think that yet another fear vote is gonna save the country when the historical record shows that it has done NOTHING but make matters worse, I really don't know what to tell you.

There always seems to be a reason with the lesser evil types to not stand on principle. And it manifests every 2 years. Why do you suppose that is? There are always claims of 'purity' and of "This is our last chance/most important election ever in the history of most important elections ever just like the last several most important elections ever. Do you ever get sick of these sky falling claims? Do you think collective amnesia sweeps in and blinds everyone to the very same pattern repeating?

Every election. Every election you pragmatics force your way through fear, false claims and repetitive catch phrasing and every year we get further and further from the ideals and government America was founded on. So when is good for you? When should we stop?

2 years ago your side told us we had to elect Jonbon and Mitch and Ryan because it was the most important election ever, they won and handed Obama every major issue he wanted. No different, aside from impotent protestations than what the dems would have on their own

2 years before that in the most important election ever, your team told America that we just had to elect the guy who profits from incinerating the dead babies his own laws as governor created. Then within 24 hours of the great Fail of 12, he turned on a dime and disavowed every bit of the outright crap he fed gullable right wingers and the GOP went on to give Obama every major issue he wanted and several smaller ones, telling us to keep our powder dry.

Notice the pattern?

Stop repeating it.

Well, sorry - but that needed repeating.

[Norm Lenhart]

Well, sorry - but that needed repeating.

It's just the truth. History exists. They do it every time they want to compromise. Every 2 years like clockwork. We would save a lot of time if they simply said "I'm a moderate and I don't believe in conservatism enough to put my vote where my words are".

If they were as conservative as they claim, then why don't they EVER vote for one?

Yup. It's a mystery.

[ConservativeGranny]

If Clinton is elected and she does something awful--as she surely would--I doubt that very many of us NeverTrump folks would bother to claim that Trump would have done the same thing.  We will simply say "We warned you not to nominate Trump.  But you didn't listen.  So, Clinton's election and Clinton's actions are necessarily Trump's fault.  He disgusted far too many people." 

I, for one, am not interested in "flexing my pure conservatism" at this point.  I would even vote for a moderate against Hillary.  (Most of us NeverTrump supporters would, I suspect.)  But what Trump's supporters refuse to grasp is that we NeverTrump folks cannot conscientiously vote for a lying, slandering, vulgar egomaniac.  That is not a fault in us.  That is principled Republicanism.  it goes way beyond conservatism.  We cannot vote for a spiritual monster no matter what.          

Everything you said I agree with but have to add that I truly believe that Donald Trump is mentally ill. That scares me more than Hillary.Hillary is a lying evil witch lacking in any morality but mentally ill? Nope, just evil. Trump is all that and nuts. There is no way I could vote for someone who I believe is that dangerous.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Yes.   You're wrong.

While the GOP Congress hasn't defunded laws that were passed by Congress before it was controlled by Republicans, they have refused to pass a great many other things that he's wanted.  That's why Obama has been forced to use sketchy Executive Orders rather than getting the actual legislation that he's wanted.   He couldn't get his Clean Power Act through, they've held up his immigration plan, they've refused to let him close Gitmo, they've denied general revenue funds to bail out ObamaCare, etc..

That's very clearly not getting 100% of what he wanted.

 

Thank you.

Someone needed to say that.

[Luis Gonzalez]

If what I have heard from a few years ago is correct, I think JR was right the first time around--when he regarded Trump as a political monster.

You mean this?

Well, I’ll make an observation. Trump is NO conservative. He’s a self-dealing charlatan and he’s got a lot of fall-for-anything chump types fooled.

Mark Levin is my friend and a friend of FR and a friend of Liberty. I’ll thank you not to trash him on this website.

109 posted on 4/18/2011, 6:56:22 PM by Jim Robinson (Rebellion is brewing!! Impeach the corrupt Marxist bastard!!)

[chae]

I just posted that quote on my TOS about page.  Wonder how long the zot will take.

[Norm Lenhart]

Thank you.

Someone needed to say that.

Not really, since I wasn't wrong. Barry just illegally implemented his power and immigration while the GOP stood there going 'Oh... OK".

So as I said, if someone wants to show where the GOP stopped any major Obama plan/policy, please do. Until then, my statement stands correct.

[verga]

I'm in the curious position of wanting him to beat her, but am unwilling to vote for him.

I knows exactly how you feel. I might have voted for him if Cruz or Newt were on the ticket with him, but now I just can't do it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Not really, since I wasn't wrong. Barry just illegally implemented his power and immigration while the GOP stood there going 'Oh... OK".

So as I said, if someone wants to show where the GOP stopped any major Obama plan/policy, please do. Until then, my statement stands correct.

Really?

You did say 100%, correct?

If you’re a conservative who opposes immigration reform, conservatives put an end to it in 2008, when Republicans controlled the White House and Democrats controlled Congress. They stopped it when Obama was in the White House and Democrats controlled both legislative branches. Republicans then filibustered the DREAM Act of 2010 and voted to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, and then many joined the suit against DACA. Yet on numerous occasions I’ve engaged with radio talk-show callers and hosts who are mad at Republicans for not doing enough. Should the RNC send two battalions to shut down the White House?

The GOP was too late to stop Obamacare, and they are partially at fault for failing to deal with health care at all. Yet only one Republican ever voted for Obamacare. The GOP sued Obama for rewriting the law without a vote of Congress and, at this point, I’ve lost count of how many times they’ve voted to repeal ACA. They sent a repeal bill to the president’s desk.

Republicans also stopped cap-and-trade, which would have created a fabricated “market” for energy in the same way Obamacare fabricates “markets” for health insurance. Stopping it helped undermine Democrats’ efforts to make fossil fuels prohibitively expensive — which was, initially, the stated goal of this administration. When Obama circumvented Congress again, Republicans across the country sued the Environmental Protection Agency.

Conservatives in Congress also put an end to bipartisan gun-control legislation. They stopped the so-called Paycheck Fairness Act — twice — and the Paying a Fair Share Act of 2012, which would have raised taxes. They stopped the American Jobs Act bailout and the authoritarian card-check stuff. They stopped the DISCLOSE Act; and the sequestration replacement; and the Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013; and the across-the-board federal-minimum-wage efforts. Republicans sued and won when Obama abused his power by naming recess appointments to the National Labor Relations Board.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434770/republican-congress-accomplished-more-you-think

Lastly, you're asking people to show you proof of things that DIDN'T happen in order to convince you that the GOP did something.

How exactly do you prove that something that never happened, didn't happen for a reason?

Again from the article:

The fact is: Democrats got some of the things they wanted. But not all, or we’d be dealing with single-payer health care, carbon-trading energy markets, more union bailouts, and about a dozen reforms that you didn’t even know existed.

[Norm Lenhart]

Really?

You did say 100%, correct?

If you’re a conservative who opposes immigration reform, conservatives put an end to it in 2008, when Republicans controlled the White House and Democrats controlled Congress. They stopped it when Obama was in the White House and Democrats controlled both legislative branches. Republicans then filibustered the DREAM Act of 2010 and voted to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, and then many joined the suit against DACA. Yet on numerous occasions I’ve engaged with radio talk-show callers and hosts who are mad at Republicans for not doing enough. Should the RNC send two battalions to shut down the White House?"



Sure seem to be a lot of illegals coming across the border despite that so called shut down. What did they stop again?



"The GOP was too late to stop Obamacare, and they are partially at fault for failing to deal with health care at all. Yet only one Republican ever voted for Obamacare. The GOP sued Obama for rewriting the law without a vote of Congress and, at this point, I’ve lost count of how many times they’ve voted to repeal ACA. They sent a repeal bill to the president’s desk."


Oh yes. "We'll send this meaningless bill that we know he will veto then we will take the issue off the table and not hold up anything he wants"

All their dog and pony show votes mean nothing when, in full control of the funding, they GAVE HIM THE FUNDING.



"Republicans also stopped cap-and-trade, which would have created a fabricated “market” for energy in the same way Obamacare fabricates “markets” for health insurance. Stopping it helped undermine Democrats’ efforts to make fossil fuels prohibitively expensive — which was, initially, the stated goal of this administration. When Obama circumvented Congress again, Republicans across the country sued the Environmental Protection Agency."


Which Obama slapped a different name on and implemented through his coal/solar fiasco. Republicans sue the EPA every other year then fund the agency completely.


"Conservatives in Congress also put an end to bipartisan gun-control legislation."


Which Dem governors then enacted anyway on their own with full Obama Justice Dept support.


 "They stopped the so-called Paycheck Fairness Act — twice — and the Paying a Fair Share Act of 2012, which would have raised taxes."


Barry raises taxes all the time and they sign off on it. And thats not some Iran level issue to begin with.


"They stopped the American Jobs Act bailout and the authoritarian card-check stuff."


Again, not some American ending crisis. the average person wouldnt have clue 1 what either were.


"They stopped the DISCLOSE Act; and the sequestration replacement; and the Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013"


Oh yes, another country ending crisis for sure.


 "and the across-the-board federal-minimum-wage efforts. Republicans sued and won when Obama abused his power by naming recess appointments to the National Labor Relations Board.

And that resulted in what? Did some hard right constitutionalist replace them? No. Bread and circuses. No gain.


"Lastly, you're asking people to show you proof of things that DIDN'T happen in order to convince you that the GOP did something."

How exactly do you prove that something that never happened, didn't happen for a reason?"


Pretty sure Obamacare, The biggest debt in history, gay marriage, Funding Iran's nuke program, Bhenghazi dog and pony hearings, an illegal invasion and all the rest are happening/happened so I don't know what you are referring to.


Again from the article:

"The fact is: Democrats got some of the things they wanted. But not all, or we’d be dealing with single-payer health care, carbon-trading energy markets, more union bailouts, and about a dozen reforms that you didn’t even know existed.

"

The fact is, Democrats got every major issue they wanted just as I said above.