‘There’s nobody left’: Evangelicals feel abandoned by GOP after Trump’s ascent

[Mechanicos]

But Trump does????

Trump never pretended to be Holier then thou.

[driftdiver]

Trump never pretended to be Holier then thou.

Neither did Cruz.  He only claimed to be a Christian.  Cruz's father said some stuff but he's a pastor.   Is it wrong if a pastor believes in God?


Trump claimed to be a Christian.  Yet he admits he doesn't seek forgiveness from God for his sins.   He just "tries to do better", to paraphrase.

Comments like yours from Trump supporters really lead me to doubt your sincerity.  You'll excuse anything Trump does or says but have an incredibly high bar for anyone else. 

[EC]

"No one is more religious than I am, believe me." Weren't Cruz saying that.

[sinkspur]

Trump never pretended to be Holier then thou.

Anyone who has to tell you he's a great Christian, isn't.

[driftdiver]

"No one is more religious than I am, believe me." Weren't Cruz saying that.

Dunno, I don't wait with baited breath for every word some candidate spews out.   None of them are perfect.

I'd much rather vote for someone who believes in a higher power over someone who thinks THEY are the highest power.

[driftdiver]

Anyone who has to tell you he's a great Christian, isn't.

I'm constantly amazed at how HIGH the bar is for anyone but Trump.

 

[Mechanicos]

Neither did Cruz.  He only claimed to be a Christian.  Cruz's father said some stuff but he's a pastor.   Is it wrong if a pastor believes in God?


Trump claimed to be a Christian.  Yet he admits he doesn't seek forgiveness from God for his sins.   He just "tries to do better", to paraphrase.

Comments like yours from Trump supporters really lead me to doubt your sincerity.  You'll excuse anything Trump does or says but have an incredibly high bar for anyone else.

Couple of points
Cruz did play holier then thou, His father pushed Cruz was the annotated one. They played a lot in churches. Beck Laid hands on hm to anoint him etc.

Trump Is some kind of Calvinist. From what I can discern his church believes there is nothing one has to do to be saved but its all by the grace of God and Jesus's sacrifice. My denomination says we have to confess our sins. I am not sure Trump's church says the same. He seems to think the wine and crackers does the same thing.

Anyway, some of the things Trump does is fruit of the tree. He does charity right, does not tell people about it does not brag in the town square. We hear about his massive charity works from people hes helped.
He does not play holier then thou. Instead he is in you face direct, admits when hes wrong and tries to do the right thing. He steps aside to let others who are more knowledgeable/better at something to do their work, etc.

I do not agree with his position he does not have to ask forgiveness. My understanding is he believes he does not have to do anything for salvation, its a gift he already has from Jesus sacrifice. i.e by grace not by any acts he does.

[mountaineer]

Trump Is some kind of Calvinist. From what I can discern his church believes there is nothing one has to do to be saved but its all by the grace of God and Jesus's sacrifice. My denomination says we have to confess our sins. I am not sure Trump's church says the same. He seems to think the wine and crackers does the same thing.

As I recall, Trump claimed to be Presbyterian. You misstate the beliefs of the Presbyterian denominations, as does Trump. We do have to confess our sins and we don't believe "wine and crackers" accomplish anything. Having been an elder in the PCUSA, I'm fairly confident that Mr. Trump hasn't a clue as to theology - reformed, Calvinist or any other iteration of Christianity.

[roamer_1]

Well that's the problem.  Could never figure out why any Evangelical would even consider Trump. 

Me neither.

It isn't that he isn't a Christian. 

Yes it is - That's it exactly.

Its that he mocked Christ by saying he had no need for forgiveness.  Every Christian should have gotten that according to the scriptures.  John 3:16 everyone knows that one.

I would submit that this is indeed the core of following the Master. If one has not given himself over (that is, repent and receive), one is not a disciple - And by precise definition, one who is not a disciple is not a Christian.

While the term 'mocked Christ' is technically true, I would not hold that as broadly true in Trump's case - I do not believe he has the ability to have intent in his ignorance. And while it is true that we are all imperfect, and we are all in varying states of ignorance in considering YHWH's perfect will, even by the broadest terms, Mr. Trump's declaration that he doesn't need forgiveness (doesn't believe it to be necessary) falls utterly beyond the pale. I cannot believe a Christian of any stripe would be so very misinformed.  And in that, I include children in Sunday School.

No doubt someone will say I have no right to judge the man's heart - and that is somewhat true - His relationship with his Maker is not my business... But one can only judge the man by his heart outwardly - and that by his words, intent, and actions. Without it there is no means to determine his character. That he is Christian is of paramount concern to any Christian voting for him, and I would submit that evidence in that regard is woefully deficient.

[NavyCanDo]

Trump never pretended to be Holier then thou.

TRUMP-"Nobody reads the Bible more than me"

[roamer_1]

Trump supporters  ("some" or maybe "many", but feels like "most") go ballistic when I claim to be #NeverTrump because #ForeverChristian.  They simply cannot believe that a man would refuse to "win with Trump", due merely to Christian principles.  They believe I am a fake, as both a Christian and conservative. 

Brilliantly stated. I certainly get the impression that they think that any discussion about his state as a Christian and as a Conservative should be tabled because he can 'win'. And I note with pleasure your context, with 'win' consistently in quotes.

They simply cannot fathom, it seems, that someone might believe in "absolute truth", nor let the Bible be his guide.  The number of times I've been accosted online for my faith by Trump supporters in the past month exceeds by a factor of 5x to 10x all secular humanist/atheists that I've run into combined in my entire 60 year lifetime.

Precisely my own experience - And it is without any sense of martyrdom that I would state it as such. It is rather to emphasize the lack of importance portrayed by others for that which is for me, the very light that guides me. That discontinuity is sufficient to inform me that my path varies widely from theirs, and that we are not in coalition. 

I haven't got a dog in the hunt for the November election.  I don't believe I'm alone. 

Nope... Not alone. I can see you from here. 

[bilo]

Neither did Cruz.  He only claimed to be a Christian.  Cruz's father said some stuff but he's a pastor.   Is it wrong if a pastor believes in God?


Trump claimed to be a Christian.  Yet he admits he doesn't seek forgiveness from God for his sins.   He just "tries to do better", to paraphrase.

Comments like yours from Trump supporters really lead me to doubt your sincerity.  You'll excuse anything Trump does or says but have an incredibly high bar for anyone else.

Trump and his supporters are doomed to failure, even if he wins this election. Christians will not embrace a party that is not Pro-Life, Pro-Natural Family and doesn't fight for sustaining our Judeo-Christian values. If the leader of the Pub party is going to fall in line with the LGBT agenda (as Trump did with the bathroom issue) he will see the number of Christians supporting the party continue to decline.

I will continue to support conservatives in the GOP until I find a real alternative. Once I find that alternative my financial support will go there.

[don-o]

No doubt someone will say I have no right to judge the man's heart - and that is somewhat true - His relationship with his Maker is not my business... But one can only judge the man by his heart outwardly - and that by his words, intent, and actions. Without it there is no means to determine his character. That he is Christian is of paramount concern to any Christian voting for him, and I would submit that evidence in that regard is woefully deficient.

I'll steal a Ron White line and modify it to....

"He had the right to remain silent, but lacked the ability."

Since the concept of finesse is alien to Trump, he has to bluff and bluster his way through; and assure that "the evangelicals love me." Drop a couple of names, and there's the package. (Interesting to note that both Schlafly's and Falwell's endorsements generated turmoil in their organizations.)

The article that starts the thread concerns what some Christians are wrestling with.  We won't get consensus, and sharp disagreement is fine. I continue to hope and try for civility AND Charity.

One matter I cannot get past is Trump's own recounting of his conversion from pro-abortion to pro-life. He has told it several times. He tells of a male friend who had an unwanted pregnancy in his life. Somehow, the child survived and, in Trump's words, became a "total superstar." He was asked "What if that child had turned out a 'loser' instead of a 'superstar'? Would you have changed your belief"?

Trump said - paraphrase from memory (I have source) "Probably not. I haven't thought about it. Point was he was a great kid."

That raised two red flags.

1. What are the characteristics of a "loser" child that negate his right to life?

2. How can anyone live 60 years and not think through the implications of his own beliefs?

[roamer_1]

It's always possible to live down the reputation you've earned by past conduct. But it takes time; much time; far more time than we've got.

That's right. And that is why 'Road to Damascus' conversions seem all too convenient in the election season.

[bilo]

Dunno, I don't wait with baited breath for every word some candidate spews out.   None of them are perfect.

I'd much rather vote for someone who believes in a higher power over someone who thinks THEY are the highest power.

Great point!

I was willing to vote for McCain and then Romney even though they were not close to what I hoped for in a candidate. I could vote for them because even with all their faults I thought they were decent men who wanted to do the right thing. I see none of these character traits in Trump.

[roamer_1]

Cruz did play holier then thou,

In no way. In fact his campaign, and he himself gave glory to the Father.

His father pushed Cruz was the annotated one.

Oh, Baloney! Yet again, must I rise to defend against this Dominionist crap? I can't believe how much mileage that one 15 minute hack-job video got with the chattering classes.

They played a lot in churches. Beck Laid hands on hm to anoint him etc.

Wow. Christians going to churches? What horror! And it may surprise you to find out that laying on hands is incredibly common with Christians. Throughout the Spirit filled (many non-denom Evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics) it is almost as common as blowing your nose. And even in the old guard churches, laying on hands is present, though normally only for healing.

Trump Is some kind of Calvinist. From what I can discern his church believes there is nothing one has to do to be saved but its all by the grace of God and Jesus's sacrifice. My denomination says we have to confess our sins. I am not sure Trump's church says the same. He seems to think the wine and crackers does the same thing.

Trump is PrebsyterianUSA which, while being among the most liberal and progressive among Presbyterians and Calvinists; and while being among the most liberal and progressive among Protestants generally, it still does hold to that tenet of the Westminster Confession which requires repentance, and the confession of sins. And it still holds true likewise the grave concern in taking Communion with much soul searching and keen reverence.

Anyway, some of the things Trump does is fruit of the tree. He does charity right, does not tell people about it does not brag in the town square. We hear about his massive charity works from people hes helped.

Riiiight. And yet, every one hears about it. Go figger.
 

He does not play holier then thou.

Because his ignorance in the matter precludes it. He does however, play 'Better than thou' in spades. The hubris of the man is without end.

Instead he is in you face direct, admits when hes wrong and tries to do the right thing. He steps aside to let others who are more knowledgeable/better at something to do their work, etc.

I see none of that. He always thinks he's right, and when he get caught out he (baldfaced) lies and says he 'didn't say that'.

I do not agree with his position he does not have to ask forgiveness. My understanding is he believes he does not have to do anything for salvation, its a gift he already has from Jesus sacrifice. i.e by grace not by any acts he does.

Then his Bible is little more than a doorstop.

[Mechanicos]

TRUMP-"Nobody reads the Bible more than me"

Since when is reading the Bible the same has being Anointed in public to be the leader of the country and campaigning in churches? Trump does not use his faith as a marketing tool.

[roamer_1]

I'll steal a Ron White line and modify it to....

"He had the right to remain silent, but lacked the ability."

LOL!

"Now I don't know how many of them it was gonna take to kick my a**... But I knew how many they were gonna use" -Ron White 

He used to crack me up... Though lately he's become too vulgar (not that he was ever far away from it).

Since the concept of finesse is alien to Trump, he has to bluff and bluster his way through; and assure that "the evangelicals love me." Drop a couple of names, and there's the package.

Right. He's the expert in everything doncha' know. He'd have been better off to have read his Bible to learn that:

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. -Proverbs 17:28 (KJV)

(Interesting to note that both Schlafly's and Falwell's endorsements generated turmoil in their organizations.)

Ain't it though? 

The article that starts the thread concerns what some Christians are wrestling with.  We won't get consensus, and sharp disagreement is fine. I continue to hope and try for civility AND Charity.

Hopefully that's what I am doing - though it is hard to be charitable in the face of Trump's flat ignorance wrt Christianity being ignored... or qualified.

2. How can anyone live 60 years and not think through the implications of his own beliefs?

There it is. Answer: Necessarily obfuscation.

[A-Lert]

Quote

    Anyway, some of the things Trump does is fruit of the tree. He does charity right, does not tell people about it does not brag in the town square. We hear about his massive charity works from people hes helped.


Riiiight. And yet, every one hears about it. Go figger.

Tell me. What have I missed?

[roamer_1]

Tell me. What have I missed?

I don't know. What, do you want me to guess?

[Right_in_Virginia]

Thanks for posting this Don.  Thought Cruz's dad was an asset in venues like this.

Cruz had to compete with Carson and Trump's charisma in the South.

Also, we are becoming more secular as a society.

I think Cruz Senior's Dominion Theology and belief that his son is a king appointed by God did not help Ted Cruz--at all.

Dominion Theology smacks of theocracy and is at odds with mainstream Christianity.
   

[sinkspur]

I think Cruz Senior's Dominion Theology and belief that his son is a king appointed by God did not help Ted Cruz--at all.

Dominion Theology smacks of theocracy and is at odds with mainstream Christianity.
 

Isn't it refreshing that all Ted Cruz had to battle were negative opinions of his father.

Trump has to battle associations with mobsters, pedophiles, hookers, and conspiracy nuts.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Isn't it refreshing that all Ted Cruz had to battle were negative opinions of his father.

Trump has to battle associations with mobsters, pedophiles, hookers, and conspiracy nuts.

Here's the problem for you Sink, no one believed the mobster, etc.  .      But enough voters were aware of and uncomfortable with the Cruz family being the tip of a theocratic spear.

[Fantom]

Here's the problem for you Sink, no one believed the mobster, etc.  .      But enough voters were aware of and uncomfortable with the Cruz family being the tip of a theocratic spear.

Than reap the rapier point.

More than enough Conservatives are aware that Scam Wow is the bludgeon of the democrat/progressive cudgel.

Which makes Hillary the lessor of two weasels.

Now I S'pose.. you can hope the Sanders voters vote trump. I ,However...will not.

[sinkspur]

Here's the problem for you Sink, no one believed the mobster, etc.  .      But enough voters were aware of and uncomfortable with the Cruz family being the tip of a theocratic spear.

I don't give a damn about Ted Cruz.  But you can bet the mobster, Trump U, all the MLM scams, the hookers, the married women, the misogynism, the hatred of Hispanics, all of that is going to be on full display.

Trump's attacks on Bill Clinton will not work because the WORLD knows that Trump is also a serial adulterer. 

You support a low-life.  Does that make you feel all warm inside?