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rangerrebew

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Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« on: May 01, 2016, 12:12:26 pm »


Politics
Mob Rule and the Modern Primary

Direct democracy is wreaking havoc on America’s political workings.

By J. E. Blanton – 4.28.16

During his victory speech following the April 19 New York Republican primary, Donald Trump repeated what has become a common refrain from his campaign of late: that the Republican nominating process is “crooked” and “rigged.” The solution, Trump proposed, is “going back to the old ways: You get votes and you win.”

The idea that “you get votes and you win” coheres with most Americans’ definition of democracy, but the framers of the Constitution, looking back to the origins of democracy in the city-states of ancient Greece, would not have defined it that way. In Greek democracy, as James Madison noted in The Federalist no. 10, assemblies of citizens voted on all political decisions. Such a system was only practical in polities with a compact territory and relatively small population. Larger polities would find direct democracy unworkable, hence citizens had to cede decision-making power to other institutions, which might be more representative (the House of Representatives) or less (the U.S. Senate, especially before the Seventeenth Amendment).

One of many classical influences on Madison’s thought was a work from the second century BC, The Histories by Polybius, particularly Book VI, which outlined the mixed constitution of the Roman Republic. The government of Rome, as Polybius saw it, contained democratic, aristocratic, and monarchic elements that balanced out one another, enabling the republic to avoid political extremes and the resultant instability.

Polybius believed that if any state became excessively democratic, it would degenerate into mob rule (ochlokratia in Greek). This transition, Polybius said, occurs when wealthy men, “unable to obtain [political office] by their own unassisted efforts and their own merits,” incite the passions of the commoners in order to bring about “a government of violence and the strong hand.”

The Roman Republic was an exception to this because, although it allowed citizens to participate in government through popular assemblies, other institutions ensured that political decisions were never completely in the hands of the citizenry. Rome’s elected heads of state, the consuls, wielded powers that Polybius categorized as monarchic, as they directed the military without having to consult the citizens.

Rome’s aristocracy kept the popular will in check through the institution of the Senate. Although it shares its name with the upper house of Congress, the Roman Senate was not a legislative body, nor did its authority derive from elections. Instead, its membership was hereditary, limited to those heads of household who lived off of amassed wealth rather than engaging in trade. This allowed them to participate full-time in the Senate, the role of which was more advisory than official. As a private club organized for the public good, the Senate groomed candidates for Rome’s elected offices and provided appointees for its bureaucracy.

The Roman system recognized that the needs of the state were not always the same as the wants of the people, and the Senate played a role in mediating between those two spheres. While the consuls had their own independent military budget, the Senate funded the provisioning of infrastructure, including the great road network used by both the army and the citizenry. The fact that the Senate straddled both public and private spheres also gave it a judicial role, namely the responsibility to impartially try crimes against the state.

If Polybius were to analyze the U.S. government, he would see the presidency wielding monarchical power through its role as commander-in-chief, while the aristocratic role of the Roman Senate would belong to the major political parties. Like the Roman Senate, political parties are private clubs organized for the public good. They nominate candidates for public office and their platforms help shape officeholders’ agendas, but they operate outside the governing structure provided for by the U.S. Constitution. Unlike the executive, legislative, and judicial branches, political parties have no constitutional mandate that determines how they are organized or must operate.

Before the 1970s, neither Republicans nor Democrats gave much weight to voters in the nominating process. Most delegates to the national conventions that nominated presidential candidates were selected by closed-door state and local conventions rather than at the ballot box. These conventions were dominated by political bosses, lifelong officeholders, and professional party operatives. Though the party leadership limited popular participation in the nominating process, they still had to produce candidates who would be competitive among a broad national electorate.

The Democrats were the first to dismantle that system following the violence at their 1968 national convention in Chicago. Republicans soon followed suit. Over the past four decades, the power-brokers who once controlled the nominating process in both parties have yielded their influence to a popular vote. Pragmatic deal-makers who hoped to groom a viable general election candidate have given way to the primary voter who demands that candidates respond to their ideological passions. Voter turnout has declined, polarization has overtaken the national electorate, and factionalization is deepening within both parties. The future of the Republican Party is now in doubt, and Democrats may find themselves in a similar position within an election cycle or two.

It is difficult for most Americans to imagine what kind of political system might emerge to fill the void should one or both major parties collapse, but more than 2000 years ago, Polybius considered what would happen when a republic’s political aristocracy abdicated its role in constraining the popular will. The result was ochlokratia — mob rule. Such a government no longer works to secure the public good, but to carry out factional grievances. Thus begins the republic’s descent into anarchy. And the only road out of anarchy is despotism.

I hesitate to guess how far down the path to mob rule we’ve already gone, but when I hear candidates and commentators alike venting about “superdelegates” and “the establishment,” I fear that the current two-party system is on the verge of collapse. If the country wants to get back to “the old ways,” then lessening popular influence on the nominating process might be a good place to start. We might once again see candidates who would rather build a national consensus than stoke the passions of their factional base. In that case, we might find that our government will become more representative even if it becomes less democratic.

The American Spectator Foundation is the 501(c)(3) organization responsible for publishing The American Spectator magazine and training aspiring journalists who espouse traditional American values. Your contributions are tax deductible to the extent permitted by law. Each donor receives a year-end summary of their giving for tax purposes.

Copyright 2013, The American Spectator. All rights reserved.
Source URL: http://spectator.org/articles/66146/mob-rule-and-modern-primary

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2016, 12:19:51 pm »

I hesitate to guess how far down the path to mob rule we’ve already gone, but when I hear candidates and commentators alike venting about “superdelegates” and “the establishment,” I fear that the current two-party system is on the verge of collapse.

He fears that the two party system is on the verge of collapse????? Why is that a bad thing?

rangerrebew

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2016, 12:23:54 pm »
What's happening now is what Lincoln feared, mobocracy as he called it.  I wouldn't be the least bit bothered if both parties went to the great convention in the sky.  They've both been around too long and are too entrenched with special interests, and their own special interests.

Offline Henry Noel

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2016, 12:27:46 pm »
Rome’s aristocracy kept the popular will in check through the institution of the Senate.


It did, until popular sentiment empowered strong individuals to override its authority. That's the danger we face today, in allowing increasing power to be concentrated in the Executive, while the Legislative either languishes or outright refuses to check it.
Gee, it feels great to be a gangster!

Offline oldmomster

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2016, 12:46:41 pm »

Polybius believed that if any state became excessively democratic, it would degenerate into mob rule (ochlokratia in Greek). This transition, Polybius said, occurs when wealthy men, “unable to obtain [political office] by their own unassisted efforts and their own merits,” incite the passions of the commoners in order to bring about “a government of violence and the strong hand.”


looks like we are well on our way.....

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2016, 12:47:17 pm »
It did, until popular sentiment empowered strong individuals to override its authority. That's the danger we face today, in allowing increasing power to be concentrated in the Executive, while the Legislative either languishes or outright refuses to check it.

I hear this criticism of the GOP establishment all the time, and it's just not true: The current Congress is the least productive one in history. Because the GOP in Congress will not let any bills through that Obama would like. That being said, all the Congress can do really is pass censure, block nominations (which is happening), holding hearing (which it is doing), and block spending (which is where the 2014 budget battle occurred, and the blockers arguably lost).

Congressional GOP has filed several lawsuits against Obama.

Congressional GOP doesn't have either the votes for impeachment and certainly not conviction. Last impeachment was a disaster frankly.

I hear this refrain on how McConnell and Boehner were these evil Democratic collaborators and it's purely talk radio fantasy.

Congress's power in the current government is limited to being obstructionist and that is exactly what they are doing.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 12:48:11 pm by Weird Tolkienish Figure »

Offline don-o

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 12:58:50 pm »
He fears that the two party system is on the verge of collapse????? Why is that a bad thing?

The answer is in the article.  The way I understand it is that political parties serve as organizations that can exercise some amount of dispersed political power. I suggest a reread of the examples of Rome that the writer cites.

Let's not loose sight of the basic fact that all conservatives agree on. We do not have a two party system, when the rubber meets the road. We have a Republican party that mouths the right words from time to time; but when the roll is called, yea or nay, too many of them go along with what the actual minority party (Democrat party) supports.  So there is a breakdown of the ideal of how representation is supposed to work.

And when real opposition stands up (to funding of Obamacare, for example) and actually acts within parliamentary procedure to actually foil the minority (Democrat party), the majority party (Republican party)  leadership wets its finger to see which way the wind is blowing.

And, fueled by a media (whose primary modus operandi  is entertainment, not informing, the polls reveal that Grandma eating dog food and people dying in the streets is not popular. But, rather than hardening themselves, refuting the falsity of the "charges" and standing on principle, they cave. Again and again.

Glad this article was posted. It deals with the basics.




Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2016, 01:05:28 pm »
Let's not loose sight of the basic fact that all conservatives agree on. We do not have a two party system, when the rubber meets the road.We have a Republican party that mouths the right words from time to time; but when the roll is called, yea or nay, too many of them go along with what the actual minority party (Democrat party) supports.  So there is a breakdown of the ideal of how representation is supposed to work.

To me this is just empty talk radio pablum. For one thing, not all conservatives agree on this point. That the GOP House should have held fast in fall of 2014 was the right thing to do was by no means an indisputable fact. For example, they caved, and went on to win even bigger majorities, and the Senate. Polls showed that the funding dispute was not popular, and after the GOP caved, they won one of their biggest majorities in history (since the 1920's I believe).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 01:06:41 pm by Weird Tolkienish Figure »

Offline don-o

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2016, 01:10:49 pm »
That being said, all the Congress can do really is pass censure, block nominations (which is happening), holding hearing (which it is doing), and block spending (which is where the 2014 budget battle occurred, and the blockers arguably lost).

 

snipped and bolding is mine.....

The power of the purse is not a minor thing. (Not saying you said it is, but to make a point.)

On the contrary, is is the power that the HOR must exercise for checks and balances to work. Hearings and blocking nominations is mostly busy work, compared to the real power in authorizing the money.

Did the Republicans ever explain why the last budget deal included funding Planned Parenthood?


Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2016, 01:16:09 pm »
snipped and bolding is mine.....

The power of the purse is not a minor thing. (Not saying you said it is, but to make a point.)

On the contrary, is is the power that the HOR must exercise for checks and balances to work. Hearings and blocking nominations is mostly busy work, compared to the real power in authorizing the money.

Did the Republicans ever explain why the last budget deal included funding Planned Parenthood?

Paul Ryan did something that is basically unheard of these days, he compromised everything for a single prize: lifting the ban on oil exports.

I think the end result is a good thing that will create thousands of jobs, when oil prices inevitably start to rise again, but for once I will agree that he may have compromised too much.

rangerrebew

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2016, 03:29:37 pm »
Again referencing Lincoln, his success was do to his philosophy of giving way on issues that don't really matter all that much but never budging on those that did.  It is what made him such a successful attorney.

HonestJohn

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2016, 04:18:36 pm »
Paul Ryan did something that is basically unheard of these days, he compromised everything for a single prize: lifting the ban on oil exports.

I think the end result is a good thing that will create thousands of jobs, when oil prices inevitably start to rise again, but for once I will agree that he may have compromised too much.

Except that compromise only lasted for one year, as budgets are yearly.  Whereas the end of the oil export ban was permanent (or, at least, until popular sentiment allows for a new ban to be enacted).

HonestJohn

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2016, 04:25:21 pm »
I hear this criticism of the GOP establishment all the time, and it's just not true: The current Congress is the least productive one in history. Because the GOP in Congress will not let any bills through that Obama would like. That being said, all the Congress can do really is pass censure, block nominations (which is happening), holding hearing (which it is doing), and block spending (which is where the 2014 budget battle occurred, and the blockers arguably lost).

Congressional GOP has filed several lawsuits against Obama.

Congressional GOP doesn't have either the votes for impeachment and certainly not conviction. Last impeachment was a disaster frankly.

I hear this refrain on how McConnell and Boehner were these evil Democratic collaborators and it's purely talk radio fantasy.

Congress's power in the current government is limited to being obstructionist and that is exactly what they are doing.

This is all very true.

The main issue is that, on top of this, even the ordinary GOP voter wants the basic functions of government to continue.  So, budgets need to be passed... and they are not.  The current crop in the House does not compromise, so nothing is done.  For in a republic, the representatives have to compromise in order for the republic to function.  No single person has the power to 'get their way'.

For an example of compromise and how it really doesn't hurt, I'd point out that there wasn't really much protest over last year's budget deal, even with planned parenthood funded.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2016, 01:57:16 am »
Title and premise:
"Mob Rule and the Modern Primary..."

Hmmmmmmmm.....
Lemmmmeeeeesssseeeee here....

I'm none to smart, but is the writer implying that political primaries in which voters directly elect candidates -- either by popular vote or by delegate count -- are "mob rule"?

If so, the solution is easy:
Eliminate the primary process and go back to the smoke-filled rooms.

That will ensure that "the party", rather than "the people" will choose the candidates who will run for office.

Nuthin' wrong with that. Their party so they can make the rules.
Right?

So... if this were the case, who would they have chosen to run against hillary this time?
¡Jeb! ????

Offline HootOwl

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2016, 02:52:39 am »


Congressional GOP has filed several lawsuits against Obama.

Congressional GOP doesn't have either the votes for impeachment and certainly not conviction. Last impeachment was a disaster

It's sad. Today our only protection comes from SCOTUS.  Our legislature has 2 bodies House-  elected by the people, and the Senate, which originally was elected by electors  ( boy would Thump raise hell over that :silly:

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2016, 03:05:24 am »
I hear this criticism of the GOP establishment all the time, and it's just not true: The current Congress is the least productive one in history. Because the GOP in Congress will not let any bills through that Obama would like. That being said, all the Congress can do really is pass censure, block nominations (which is happening), holding hearing (which it is doing), and block spending (which is where the 2014 budget battle occurred, and the blockers arguably lost).

Congressional GOP has filed several lawsuits against Obama.

Congressional GOP doesn't have either the votes for impeachment and certainly not conviction. Last impeachment was a disaster frankly.

I hear this refrain on how McConnell and Boehner were these evil Democratic collaborators and it's purely talk radio fantasy.

Congress's power in the current government is limited to being obstructionist and that is exactly what they are doing.

 blij26

Offline Bigun

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2016, 03:14:26 am »

Congressional GOP has filed several lawsuits against Obama.

Congressional GOP doesn't have either the votes for impeachment and certainly not conviction. Last impeachment was a disaster

It's sad. Today our only protection comes from SCOTUS.  Our legislature has 2 bodies House-  elected by the people, and the Senate, which originally was elected by electors  ( boy would Thump raise hell over that :silly:

No but the House alone can defund any damned thing it wants and there is nothing either the president or the senate can do about it! All it takes is the guts to do it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2016, 10:22:12 am »
No but the House alone can defund any damned thing it wants and there is nothing either the president or the senate can do about it! All it takes is the guts to do it!

The House can propose a budget defunding anything it wants. To get it enacted it needs to either pass the Senate and then the Executive, or pass by executive veto.

Until that happens it cannot do a damn thing.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2016, 12:27:14 pm »
The House can propose a budget defunding anything it wants. To get it enacted it needs to either pass the Senate and then the Executive, or pass by executive veto.

Until that happens it cannot do a damn thing.

Wrong!

Until the House approves a budget there is no budget! Period!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Mob Rule and the Modern Primary
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2016, 02:16:10 pm »
Wrong!

Until the House approves a budget there is no budget! Period!

That is sort of true, but there are things that were funded in the past, that may still have money, and Obama can spend it as his discretion. HoR can't do much about that, IIRC.