Author Topic: “A Republic, if you can keep it.” Donald Trump and the Tyranny of the Mob…  (Read 25171 times)

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Offline Mesaclone

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There are distinct socioeconomic similarities between America today and Weimar Germany, and those are the real cause for concern. A person who could have been a Hitler would not have reached that pinnacle of evil without the fertile situation in which he developed, they would have been a mere footnote instead of the subject of libraries.

But because the poor economy, high unemployment ("low workforce participation"), a ready-made scapegoat class (welfare recipients, invading illegals, and 'refugees'), the perception of lost military effectiveness due to mismanagement at political levels, the slide in national prestige on the world stage, and the question of national debt, all exist, one who promises to solve our ills and take care of the undesirables, to put the country back to work, and improve the economy (while beating the Communists!) will indeed receive a great deal of support. Perhaps far more than they should, and there are plenty of mechanisms in place by which an already largely nationalized police force and myriad agencies can impose totalitarianism without passing a single new law, just ignoring some fundamental old ones.

Human nature says that as long as those abuses are aimed at the targets of the majority's angst or anger, the abusive nature of those actions will be ignored or encouraged, and the cries to quash such dissent as may appear will be shrill, indeed

Comparing any politician now who isn't a full blown totalitarian with someone with the power and existing mechanisms to just dive in and start extermination of entire subgroups would be folly. (Sorry, once you enter the arena, you become a politician, regardless of your old job.)

What makes such difficult to spot is that it must be done in a far less developed, almost larval stage, not as a fully developed entity. It is the bad seed in fertile ground that burns whole continents.

Good lord, not another Hitler/Weimar Republic comparison. Lets be clear, from the vantage point of a real analysis of actual historical context.

1) The economy of post-war Germany in no way equates to our current situation. Unless you've seen people with wheel-barrels full of dollars heading to the 7/11, there is no analogy whatsoever. Weimar had rampant inflation (the value of the mark went from 4.2 per dollar to a million per dollar), in comparison we have incredibly low inflation. Weimar unemployment was VASTLY worse than that here in the US...hovering around 31%. Weimar's economic base was gutted from WWI, ours faces no such calamity.

2) In social terms, there is also virtually no viable comparisons between Weimar and the current US situation. Most importantly, Germany had no democratic tradition and very weak institutions for furthering elective politics...in the Weimar era, it was an oligarchic monarchy. In plain language, Germany had a history of rule by strongman and the transition back to that style of rule was facile. The US has 200 years of Republican governance, and a tradition of free speech and protest...accompanied by a broad Bill of Rights. Such traditions are ingrained in the American psyche, diamatrically different then the mentality in Weimar and pre-WWII Germany. Additionally, Europe on a broader scale, including Germany, was rife with a deep-seated anti-semitism and an acceptance of absurdities like eugenics. The German people were poorly educated, with minimal literacy at under 80%.

So, basically, the modern US culture, economy and military situation are as diametrically different as could be imagined from Weimar Germany. They bear virtually no analogous functions in terms of structure, performance and overall social/political psychology.  Making such a comparison is little more than an effort to generate false perceptions of current politicians and ideologies at best, and a sign of an utter lack of understanding of the mechanics of historical causation at worst. Just stop.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 09:31:37 pm by Mesaclone »
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I lied?  Nonsense

Everytime the issue of his donation s come up Trump's defenders go off the deep end.  It's been posted and is readily available that he's given heavily to democrats.  I clouding mccauliff in the last election.

Trump chose to help democrats.   Whatever his reason they have benefits from his choices.   

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a lie.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jul/09/ben-ferguson/donald-trumps-campaign-contributions-democrats-and/

Data from the Federal Election Commission and state elections offices provided by the two websites show that Trump has given $584,850 to Democrats and $961,140 to the GOP over the last 26 years.

Offline Mesaclone

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The "it's just business" excuse has never seemed very persuasive to me.  You have plenty of closely-held businesses, like Koch Industries, Facebook, etc., who give political donations only to one side.  And yet, it doesn't seem to prevent them from being very successful.

The most logical conclusion to be draw from that is that Trump never really cared about those issues very much at all.  Which is kind of odd for a guy running for President, because you'd like to think anyone wanting that job would be doing so because of some pretty deeply held convictions.

Its not "odd" at all. Most people live their lives with little more than a passing care about politics...and rich people are not immune from that attitude. Mr. Trump gave money to politicians in ways that would help his businesses to prosper, something essential to someone in real estate in particular. Late in life, he was no longer able to block out the absurdity of what has been happening to this country politically, and he has arrived belatedly at the political table.

In some ways, admittedly, he is still forming his detailed sense of ideology...he approaches problems from a business and practical point of view. Thank god. This does not mean he has no core, nor does it mean he isn't attached to a conservative perspective...it just means he applies common sense before he concedes to purely ideological orthodoxy.

In all honesty, its a big part of why people are supporting him. So bringing up donations and or casual views he had on some issues in the past tells you NOTHING of his current beliefs...which are no mystery, as he is using great candor and articulation to tell you these beliefs in plain language.
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Offline The Jackal

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In some ways, admittedly, he is still forming his detailed sense of ideology...he approaches problems from a business and practical point of view. Thank god. This does not mean he has no core, nor does it mean he isn't attached to a conservative perspective...it just means he applies common sense before he concedes to purely ideological orthodoxy.


Practical ideas such as ensuring that babies conceived in rape or incest do not see the light of the day and threatening to alter the GOP party platform to reflect that 'common sense' ideal. Or giving the 'who cares' shrug-like signal to those concerned about trannies and other moral deviants prowling the women's room. Sorry, I'm not going to wait around for Donald to evolve and find his inner conservative.

Offline driftdiver

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http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jul/09/ben-ferguson/donald-trumps-campaign-contributions-democrats-and/

Data from the Federal Election Commission and state elections offices provided by the two websites show that Trump has given $584,850 to Democrats and $961,140 to the GOP over the last 26 years.

So he has given heavily to the dems?    Is that what you're saying?

Including significant donations in the last couple of years.

Would our country be different if the Don used his influence to help conservatives?  Heck if he helped the GOP?

Or a crazy idea, would we be better if he wasn't helping the dems?
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Offline Mesaclone

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Practical ideas such as ensuring that babies conceived in rape or incest do not see the light of the day and threatening to alter the GOP party platform to reflect that 'common sense' ideal. Or giving the 'who cares' shrug-like signal to those concerned about trannies and other moral deviants prowling the women's room. Sorry, I'm not going to wait around for Donald to evolve and find his inner conservative.

A pro-life stance with exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother is in synch with the majority of conservatives and GOP voters. While all life should be valued, the life of the mother in such situations also matters. I'm not arguing the issue with you, as that is a pointless endeavor, but Trump's view is very mainstream GOP on the topic...platform or no platform.
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Offline Mesaclone

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But that's kind of the point.  I don't want someone in office who does not have well-grounded, well-thought out beliefs.  That road leads to seat-of-the-pants pragmatism and short-sightedness.

Saying "we can't be sure he isn't a conservative" -- which is what all that really boils down to -- is not very comforting.  Maybe he's a conservative, maybe he's not.  Maybe he's a liberal, maybe he's not.   I'm not asking for a rigid ideologue, but I'd at least like to have an idea of where his core actually lies.  And I truly have no idea.  I'm not going to recount all the contradictory positions he's espoused, but suffice it to say I don't think anyone can say with any degree of confidence that he believes in "X".  Unless "X" is Donald Trump.

I agree with that, which is oddly similar in some sense to Obama's early appeal.  If it's not really clear where he's coming from -- and it wasn't to at least some folks who were suckered in -- then you can be all things to a lot more people.  Voters will read into your statements what they believe themselves, and be comforted.  But it may not be reality at all.

That, I don't agree with.  He put out a tax plan that said the top rate will be lowered to 25%, then he states that he wants to raise taxes on the wealthy, which is a direct contradiction.  So how are his views "no mystery"?  I still don't know what he's really going to do with people who are here illegally, and I don't know what he's going to do about the military other than make it "great".  He just doesn't have specifics.

The one thing on which he has been completely consistent is that he is against any entitlement reform, which to me marks him as a non-conservative almost by definition.

Look, if you want someone who's not a career politician and "part" of the problem, you have to look to someone who's had success outside of politics. When you do that, you're going to get a guy who's not polished on every talking point, who has not immersed himself in ideology and orthodoxy, and who...in all honesty...still has a learning curve on some complex issues. Such a man must be someone who has a history of surrounding himself with people that can backfill his own shortcomings. So you're not wrong that he is lacking in details on some issues...and not especially well versed on others. He will become so over time, but right now the important thing is to put a man in the White House who has common sense, intellect, wisdom and a great skill at delegation. That man is Donald Trump.

The illusion many want to sell, is that regular citizens like Mr. Trump are unqualified to be President because they have spent their entire life in debate club, attaining a Masters in Poly Sci or Law, and lack 40 years of lobbying and running for office. The truth is, the kind of experience that makes a good president, is precisely the opposite of such qualifications...what's need is a citizen, who's life has NOT been absorbed with politics and its study, and someone who has demonstrated great talent in his chosen field of endeavor. A man/woman who is a leader, not a politician...that is what we need, and that is what we get with Trump. He has his failings...a big ego and a crass manner of speech at times...but he knows how to influence and thus how to lead.

The alternative is a professional politician, like Mr. Cruz, who is rigidly bound to ideology over common sense and practicality. A man with poor leadership skills, who is hated by his colleagues not for his ideology but for his personal selfishness and self-promotion, and who cannot offer any appeal for voters outside the Evangelical voting block. That seems like a no-brainer of a choice, but I guess we all have to make our own call.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 10:21:50 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline The Jackal

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The one thing on which he has been completely consistent is that he is against any entitlement reform, which to me marks him as a non-conservative almost by definition.

That was a big flag for me. Particularly when he said that entitlements won't be an issue because he's going to grow the economy. I saw that same thing here in CA with CALPERS and the state employee unions who had used future projected pension fund earnings as a basis for calculating wage and benefit compensation in present day collective bargaining agreements. We all know how that turned out.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Yes, but in terms of Constitutional structure and traditions, they are world's apart.  The Weimar Republic and its constitution were invented in the aftermath of WWI and never really took root.   And it was  particularly foreign to the military -- especially the Junker officer class.

Here, we have a military culture, tradition, and officer corps that would not tolerate anyone openly exceeding their Constitutional authority in the manner contemplated by the Enabling Acts.


The Weimar Constitution was weakly held as a tradition, and it represented cultural change.

In our case, we do have a Constitution, but it has been incrementally obscured in the minds of the citizenry by pet programs, some of which are as old as most living. How many would step up to the plate and say that Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Public Housing, and a host of other Federal activities are indeed extra-Constitutional, and without Authorization? (That's just a warmup.)

 Add to that legislating from the bench which has added a host of alleged "Rights" which do not conform with original intent, from Roe, to Kelo, to Obamacare 'taxes', and the Founders would be hard pressed to find the tattered remnants of the Constitution and Bill of Rights woven into the fabric of the current Federal Government.

In short, most don't have any idea what the document says, authorizes, nor that it was intended to severely limit the size and scope of the government they take for granted. The affection of people for the actual document and original intent is nowhere close to waving it around when convenient. People have become as disconnected from that Original Intent as the Weimar Republic in that neither really knows nor understands the concept as written.

We also have our political class, the favored, the often exempt government multitude presiding over their individual fiefdoms of regulation and turf, who are similar to the Junkers, in that they are not quite military, not quite police, but carry the ability of the former and the authority of the latter, and are referred to as "Agent", "Special Agent", "Director" and a host of other titles. They are armed, they carry weapons, they are often veterans, and they follow orders.

Despite the oathkeepers in the ranks, there are many who will follow orders. Add to the Armed Forces, that 'shadow army' of tens of thousands of Agency Personnel, not limited to the FBI, BATF, and other more familiar agencies but down to the USFWS (US Fish and Wildlife Service) and Department of Energy which are authorized to carry and use lethal force. 

The totalitarians would not use the rank and file Army or Marines against civilians (Legally, they can't Possee Comitatus prevents it), but that will not stop the agency 'police' nor those State and local police organizations asked to assist which have received military hardware including APCs, Bomb proof vehicles, drones, body armor, and other hardware with the same efficiency, and many of those officers are veterans.

With the rhetoric tending toward calling ordinary conservative, gun toting, and especially Bible-believing civilians "Domestic Terrorists" and "cults", it isn't a far cry to turn all that hardware and know-how on the "enemy" (us) in the event of any real or claimed acts of resistance, violence, or terrorism
.
What could spark such controversy that that would happen? Try an Australian style ban of semiautomatic weapons, or magazines larger than 10 rounds: turn them or the government will come get them. A major 'racist' disruption like Baltimore or Fergusson:  Blood in the Streets, and the more it happened, the worse it would get until...Martial Law.

Because the media would spin the story as they were told or lose their broadcast licenses, the information contrary to the official story allowed to get out would be very limited, and immediately decried as AGITPROP aimed at causing trouble and getting the people unjustly riled against those officers and officials just doing their sworn duty.  "Conspiracy theory" and dismissed, while the official version would be repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseum, until it was widely believed. Lather, rinse, repeat. Like the VHS tapes I saw from Ruby Ridge, hand delivered copies of copies of copies, by way of a friend, the (officially) unfiltered information from the site would be traveling slowly, on thumb drives and CDs and DVDs, not through the interwebs where the file could be easily doped with a virus and the virus disseminated.

When you consider that an obscure church group was presented to a public, (some of which still believes it engaged in sexual impropriety with children, manufactured meth, was in possession of illegal and fully automatic weapons, and ambushed and killed BATF agents just trying to investigate allegations of child abuse before a long standoff which ended when they set their own home on fire on a windy day and burned themselves to death, the power of the media controlling the message becomes manifest.

Although other accounts did escape the carnage and conflagration, and thinking people debunked much of the official story, there were no arrests of government officials, no convictions arose, and the government issue version of events remains the one told when the issue is revisited by any but those who did their own research. Even FLIR interpreters started waking up dead in the morning when those tapes became available, until one was found who would testify (before Congress) that the flashes on the video were reflections off broken glass and debris and not the result of gunfire.

Now, turn that same media machine loose on a different series of events, jam the cell phone towers, block the internet from the trouble zone (and blame it on the 'terrorists'), and you can do virtually anything, especially after evacuating people in the vicinity of the operation for 'reasons of public safety'. The government controlled version will be the only one heard, and if any got out, it can be tracked by keyword analysis and the perpetrators can be made to 'have an accident' or disappear. There are a huge number of boogeymen out there to blame for the messy demise of a person or their family and friends, and supporting information can be manufactured and disseminated at will. After all, they might have been your neighbor, but 'you never really know a person', right?

It all could sound horribly paranoid, but ask Lavoy Finicum, Michael Schroeder, Gordon Kahl, Vicki Weaver, or the folks down at M.O.V.E in Philly about that. Oh, you can't. They are all dead.

The tools are there, hanging on the wall for all to see, just waiting for someone to abuse them.

With information screened and restricted and with just a few facebook and twitter 'sources' singing the party line into the interwebs, the whole perception of any event would be whatever the government issued. Because that perception would be distorted, there would be little or no conflicting information, especially for the troops called in to restore order. Only those who knew someone in the area (and who could be mostly screened out of the op) would know something was amiss, if they caught on. The rest would follow orders, as they were commanded to do or face courts martial and a possible DD.
 
Now, for the Military, and God Bless everyone who has served or is serving, the Military is being used for social experimentation. The authority for this, the actual orders may be mandated by the POTUS, but are in fact delivered by officers of flag rank. As they say, a fish rots from the head down, but the lower ranks are following orders, no matter what they think of them, at least until their term of service is over.

Pack the military with homosexuals and minorities and you have stacked the deck with people from generally frustrated and angry backgrounds, who are more likely to harbor anger toward either whites or 'straights' and all those judgemental church going types who looked down their noses at best or "held them down" at worst, and you have a powder keg, like the SA.

I am sorry, there are some in the Military we could count on not to participate against civilians, hopefully the vast majority, but I think there are enough who would do what they are told to make things very, very ugly. Small arms, even well applied, are no match for a modern army.
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Offline Mesaclone

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Anyone have any spare aluminum foil?
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A-Lert

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So he has given heavily to the dems?    Is that what you're saying?

Including significant donations in the last couple of years.

Would our country be different if the Don used his influence to help conservatives?  Heck if he helped the GOP?

Or a crazy idea, would we be better if he wasn't helping the dems?

You stated; "He's given even more to democrats."

No, he hasn't. Don't you read?

Data from the Federal Election Commission and state elections offices provided by the two websites show that Trump has given $584,850 to Democrats and $961,140 to the GOP over the last 26 years.

HonestJohn

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The Weimar Constitution was weakly held as a tradition, and it represented cultural change.

In our case, we do have a Constitution, but it has been incrementally obscured in the minds of the citizenry by pet programs, some of which are as old as most living. How many would step up to the plate and say that Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Public Housing, and a host of other Federal activities are indeed extra-Constitutional, and without Authorization? (That's just a warmup.)

 Add to that legislating from the bench which has added a host of alleged "Rights" which do not conform with original intent, from Roe, to Kelo, to Obamacare 'taxes', and the Founders would be hard pressed to find the tattered remnants of the Constitution and Bill of Rights woven into the fabric of the current Federal Government.

In short, most don't have any idea what the document says, authorizes, nor that it was intended to severely limit the size and scope of the government they take for granted. The affection of people for the actual document and original intent is nowhere close to waving it around when convenient. People have become as disconnected from that Original Intent as the Weimar Republic in that neither really knows nor understands the concept as written.

We also have our political class, the favored, the often exempt government multitude presiding over their individual fiefdoms of regulation and turf, who are similar to the Junkers, in that they are not quite military, not quite police, but carry the ability of the former and the authority of the latter, and are referred to as "Agent", "Special Agent", "Director" and a host of other titles. They are armed, they carry weapons, they are often veterans, and they follow orders.

Despite the oathkeepers in the ranks, there are many who will follow orders. Add to the Armed Forces, that 'shadow army' of tens of thousands of Agency Personnel, not limited to the FBI, BATF, and other more familiar agencies but down to the USFWS (US Fish and Wildlife Service) and Department of Energy which are authorized to carry and use lethal force. 

The totalitarians would not use the rank and file Army or Marines against civilians (Legally, they can't Possee Comitatus prevents it), but that will not stop the agency 'police' nor those State and local police organizations asked to assist which have received military hardware including APCs, Bomb proof vehicles, drones, body armor, and other hardware with the same efficiency, and many of those officers are veterans.

With the rhetoric tending toward calling ordinary conservative, gun toting, and especially Bible-believing civilians "Domestic Terrorists" and "cults", it isn't a far cry to turn all that hardware and know-how on the "enemy" (us) in the event of any real or claimed acts of resistance, violence, or terrorism
.
What could spark such controversy that that would happen? Try an Australian style ban of semiautomatic weapons, or magazines larger than 10 rounds: turn them or the government will come get them. A major 'racist' disruption like Baltimore or Fergusson:  Blood in the Streets, and the more it happened, the worse it would get until...Martial Law.

Because the media would spin the story as they were told or lose their broadcast licenses, the information contrary to the official story allowed to get out would be very limited, and immediately decried as AGITPROP aimed at causing trouble and getting the people unjustly riled against those officers and officials just doing their sworn duty.  "Conspiracy theory" and dismissed, while the official version would be repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseum, until it was widely believed. Lather, rinse, repeat. Like the VHS tapes I saw from Ruby Ridge, hand delivered copies of copies of copies, by way of a friend, the (officially) unfiltered information from the site would be traveling slowly, on thumb drives and CDs and DVDs, not through the interwebs where the file could be easily doped with a virus and the virus disseminated.

When you consider that an obscure church group was presented to a public, (some of which still believes it engaged in sexual impropriety with children, manufactured meth, was in possession of illegal and fully automatic weapons, and ambushed and killed BATF agents just trying to investigate allegations of child abuse before a long standoff which ended when they set their own home on fire on a windy day and burned themselves to death, the power of the media controlling the message becomes manifest.

Although other accounts did escape the carnage and conflagration, and thinking people debunked much of the official story, there were no arrests of government officials, no convictions arose, and the government issue version of events remains the one told when the issue is revisited by any but those who did their own research. Even FLIR interpreters started waking up dead in the morning when those tapes became available, until one was found who would testify (before Congress) that the flashes on the video were reflections off broken glass and debris and not the result of gunfire.

Now, turn that same media machine loose on a different series of events, jam the cell phone towers, block the internet from the trouble zone (and blame it on the 'terrorists'), and you can do virtually anything, especially after evacuating people in the vicinity of the operation for 'reasons of public safety'. The government controlled version will be the only one heard, and if any got out, it can be tracked by keyword analysis and the perpetrators can be made to 'have an accident' or disappear. There are a huge number of boogeymen out there to blame for the messy demise of a person or their family and friends, and supporting information can be manufactured and disseminated at will. After all, they might have been your neighbor, but 'you never really know a person', right?

It all could sound horribly paranoid, but ask Lavoy Finicum, Michael Schroeder, Gordon Kahl, Vicki Weaver, or the folks down at M.O.V.E in Philly about that. Oh, you can't. They are all dead.

The tools are there, hanging on the wall for all to see, just waiting for someone to abuse them.

With information screened and restricted and with just a few facebook and twitter 'sources' singing the party line into the interwebs, the whole perception of any event would be whatever the government issued. Because that perception would be distorted, there would be little or no conflicting information, especially for the troops called in to restore order. Only those who knew someone in the area (and who could be mostly screened out of the op) would know something was amiss, if they caught on. The rest would follow orders, as they were commanded to do or face courts martial and a possible DD.
 
Now, for the Military, and God Bless everyone who has served or is serving, the Military is being used for social experimentation. The authority for this, the actual orders may be mandated by the POTUS, but are in fact delivered by officers of flag rank. As they say, a fish rots from the head down, but the lower ranks are following orders, no matter what they think of them, at least until their term of service is over.

Pack the military with homosexuals and minorities and you have stacked the deck with people from generally frustrated and angry backgrounds, who are more likely to harbor anger toward either whites or 'straights' and all those judgemental church going types who looked down their noses at best or "held them down" at worst, and you have a powder keg, like the SA.

I am sorry, there are some in the Military we could count on not to participate against civilians, hopefully the vast majority, but I think there are enough who would do what they are told to make things very, very ugly. Small arms, even well applied, are no match for a modern army.

The world, and America, is not how it's portrayed at the TOS.  Quite frankly, that site is a cult, brainwashing its members.  Take some time to shake that disinformation out.

---

Government bureaucrats have to follow the law just as much as you.

And guys like Lavoy Finicum were engaged in an armed insurrection against the US.  They seized a USG facility just the same as with Fort Sumter.

I'd hazard they were treated with kid gloves.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 11:06:52 pm by HonestJohn »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Weimar had rampant inflation (the value of the mark went from 4.2 per dollar to a million per dollar), in comparison we have incredibly low inflation. Weimar unemployment was VASTLY worse than that here in the US...hovering around 31%. Weimar's economic base was gutted from WWI, ours faces no such calamity.

2) In social terms, there is also virtually no viable comparisons between Weimar and the current US situation. Most importantly, Germany had no democratic tradition and very weak institutions for furthering elective politics...in the Weimar era, it was an oligarchic monarchy. In plain language, Germany had a history of rule by strongman and the transition back to that style of rule was facile. The US has 200 years of Republican governance, and a tradition of free speech and protest...accompanied by a broad Bill of Rights. Such traditions are ingrained in the American psyche, diamatrically different then the mentality in Weimar and pre-WWII Germany. Additionally, Europe on a broader scale, including Germany, was rife with a deep-seated anti-semitism and an acceptance of absurdities like eugenics. The German people were poorly educated, with minimal literacy at under 80%.

So, basically, the modern US culture, economy and military situation are as diametrically different as could be imagined from Weimar Germany. They bear virtually no analogous functions in terms of structure, performance and overall social/political psychology.  Making such a comparison is little more than an effort to generate false perceptions of current politicians and ideologies at best, and a sign of an utter lack of understanding of the mechanics of historical causation at worst. Just stop.

Well, we are told we have low to no inflation. But the packages keep getting smaller, and the stuff more expensive. If you are going by the government’s numbers, you can say it  doesn’t exist. If you are shopping for groceries, you might have a different take on things. Meat prices have doubled, and much else has gone up noticeably in the last five years.

As for unemployment, if you use workforce participation as opposed to the officially (benefits drawing) unemployed, you get a number closer to 21% of the people in America of working age who are not working. Part time and under employment would only add to those numbers. The landscape is far more grim than the official numbers would imply. During the latest oil boom in North Dakota I had the opportunity to talk with people form literally every state in the union and Puerto Rico  about how things were back home. The picture that painted was far less rosy than official versions, and many were barely getting by or were not. Many came to North Dakota to work on oil rigs to save their homes form foreclosure.
 
You can say the Weimar Republic didn’t have a strong democratic tradition, but neither do we. Oh, we vote, but this is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. Only a fraction of those eligible vote. With the average person’s knowledge of the Constitution, I’d say we are nearly as ignorant of our own form of government as they of theirs, and with the recent advent of Communist mobs in the streets, yes, there are similarities. Americans vote for THE guy who will get the job done. What is that if not a ‘strongman’—just listen to some of the campaign rhetoric this year.

We may have a Bill of Rights, but we have a fine tradition of rioting in the streets. Only lately has the government not taken an interest in quashing such, and that is transparently racist in its origin. We have been divided into factions in America as never before by media and political rhetoric. Those factions are ripe to be played one against the other.

We may not have antisemitism, but it need not be Jews who are the scapegoats of those who are not doing well. In America, we have Illegal aliens and H1B visa holders,  welfare queens and third generation baby mamas. OTOH, there is always the “1%”, which the communists are trying to convince American youth are not deserving of their wealth and should be stripped of it because it is “unfair”. Any of those or a combination could become the focus of a pogrom.

As for eugenics, the 50,000,000 babies not born since Roe v Wade come from demographics out of proportion to their appearance among the living. Add to that Physician assisted suicide, The Terry Schiavo case, genetic testing in utero to eliminate babies who would be (allegedly) born with birth defects, and yes, eugenics is alive and well in America, and, if anything gaining traction with ‘assisted suicide’.


Please note, I am not mentioning any candidate.

I am mentioning what I see as similarities in situations that gave rise to less than desirable results. Our problems do not have to be as bad as they were there, then. It is the people’s perceptions of those problems, and how they perceive solutions which will make any difference. You and I are not typical Americans, in that we are having this discussion which you seem to feel is unjustified. You are looking at a number of specific differences while I am looking at broader trends. I agree the specifics will likely never again align, but the broader trends and the perception of them will. If we are vigilant, perhaps we can prevent that possible unpleasant outcome. If not, we won’t. That is the spirit in which the points were made in the first place.

Whether we are in agreement or not, the one thing required for such unpleasantries to happen here is for us to completely believe they cannot.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Mesaclone

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Well, we are told we have low to no inflation. But the packages keep getting smaller, and the stuff more expensive. If you are going by the government’s numbers, you can say it  doesn’t exist. If you are shopping for groceries, you might have a different take on things. Meat prices have doubled, and much else has gone up noticeably in the last five years.

As for unemployment, if you use workforce participation as opposed to the officially (benefits drawing) unemployed, you get a number closer to 21% of the people in America of working age who are not working. Part time and under employment would only add to those numbers. The landscape is far more grim than the official numbers would imply. During the latest oil boom in North Dakota I had the opportunity to talk with people form literally every state in the union and Puerto Rico  about how things were back home. The picture that painted was far less rosy than official versions, and many were barely getting by or were not. Many came to North Dakota to work on oil rigs to save their homes form foreclosure.
 
You can say the Weimar Republic didn’t have a strong democratic tradition, but neither do we. Oh, we vote, but this is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. Only a fraction of those eligible vote. With the average person’s knowledge of the Constitution, I’d say we are nearly as ignorant of our own form of government as they of theirs, and with the recent advent of Communist mobs in the streets, yes, there are similarities. Americans vote for THE guy who will get the job done. What is that if not a ‘strongman’—just listen to some of the campaign rhetoric this year.

We may have a Bill of Rights, but we have a fine tradition of rioting in the streets. Only lately has the government not taken an interest in quashing such, and that is transparently racist in its origin. We have been divided into factions in America as never before by media and political rhetoric. Those factions are ripe to be played one against the other.

We may not have antisemitism, but it need not be Jews who are the scapegoats of those who are not doing well. In America, we have Illegal aliens and H1B visa holders,  welfare queens and third generation baby mamas. OTOH, there is always the “1%”, which the communists are trying to convince American youth are not deserving of their wealth and should be stripped of it because it is “unfair”. Any of those or a combination could become the focus of a pogrom.

As for eugenics, the 50,000,000 babies not born since Roe v Wade come from demographics out of proportion to their appearance among the living. Add to that Physician assisted suicide, The Terry Schiavo case, genetic testing in utero to eliminate babies who would be (allegedly) born with birth defects, and yes, eugenics is alive and well in America, and, if anything gaining traction with ‘assisted suicide’.


Please note, I am not mentioning any candidate.

I am mentioning what I see as similarities in situations that gave rise to less than desirable results. Our problems do not have to be as bad as they were there, then. It is the people’s perceptions of those problems, and how they perceive solutions which will make any difference. You and I are not typical Americans, in that we are having this discussion which you seem to feel is unjustified. You are looking at a number of specific differences while I am looking at broader trends. I agree the specifics will likely never again align, but the broader trends and the perception of them will. If we are vigilant, perhaps we can prevent that possible unpleasant outcome. If not, we won’t. That is the spirit in which the points were made in the first place.

Whether we are in agreement or not, the one thing required for such unpleasantries to happen here is for us to completely believe they cannot.

I have to give you full credit. You do embody the spirit and reasoning of the NeverTrump movement.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Wingnut

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I have to give you full credit. You do embody the spirit and reasoning of the NeverTrump movement.

And I will give you credit.  You stand by your Man.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psm96Dn9KII

Offline Smokin Joe

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  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
The world, and America, is not how it's portrayed at the TOS.  Quite frankly, that site is a cult, brainwashing its members.  Take some time to shake that disinformation out.

---

Government bureaucrats have to follow the law just as much as you.

And guys like Lavoy Finicum were engaged in an armed insurrection against the US.  They seized a USG facility just the same as with Fort Sumter.

I'd hazard they were treated with kid gloves.
Fort Sumter was a military installation with shore guns (artillery) controlling the harbor, seized in a violent act (the fort was shelled before it surrendered).

The USG facility they were in in Oregon was nothing of the kind: not a military facility, not armed with artillery, not controlling a harbor or even navigable waterway, not a fort, and not a shot was fired when the protesters walked in. It was shut down for the off season. No Federal personnel were endangered in the seizure of that facility.

As for all the agents having to follow the law, Like these guys?:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/29/the-epa-stashes-billions-in-slush-fund-like-accounts/

Finicum was a cantankerous old man who was shot while (finally) complying with officers. He took the ditch rather than collide with the vehicles in the roadblock (no one who knows the terrain would think he would successfully navigate  around the roadblock and return to driving down the road).

I won't argue he was perfect, but he had a point or two. If you know anything of the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) and Rancher relations for the past few decades, you would understand the point Finicum and others were trying to raise. Personally, I think they should have grabbed some media attention, made that point, given out a website URL, and left before anyone had time to assemble a 'command center'. They would have achieved 'awareness' and left before any violence could be brought to bear on anyone. I guess it is a question of objectives.

As for kid gloves, trying and sentencing people under antiterrorism statutes because a pasture burnoff got out of hand and went over the line a little bit is not "Kid gloves". "Kid gloves would have been a few harsh words, or for those really adamant about not burning weeds and grass, a fine for having done so. Then after conviction on the charge brought, sentencing, and sentences served, reviewing the case and sending the same persons back for more jail time on the same offense (proscribed sentence already served) because the court had failed to impose minimum sentences for terrorists is hardly 'kid gloves".

Neither is being shot and killed for being cantankerous.

While I fully agree the matter could have been handled better, all of those matters could have, without bloodshed, and without the people I mentioned getting killed. David Koresh and Gordon Kahl could have been picked up in town, alone. Randy Weaver could have been waited out, as could the folks in Philadelphia, and Lavoy and everyone else in the pickup were stuck. They were not going anywhere.

Out of all those instances, not one of the official people on the scene was ever charged, including Waco, Medina, Philadelphia, Oregon, or Idaho.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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I have to give you full credit. You do embody the spirit and reasoning of the NeverTrump movement.
Did I mention Trump in that post? Nope.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Mesaclone

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And I will give you credit.  You stand by your Man.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psm96Dn9KII

Me and Tammy Wynette!!!
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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No debate, then. But, an appreciation for the straight up advocacy well stated. And THAT is what I like to see prevail over winning arguments at all costs.

Dittos.

Repub4Trump has crafted as good an argument for Trump as I have seen in a long time.  Heartfelt, thoughtful, and sincere.  Well done Repub4Trump.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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What a great thread.  I am really digging all the new blood and thoughtful opinions.  Thank you all!

Offline OldSaltUSN

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:bsflag:  The only things I'm ashamed of are the self-professed, holier-than-thou, Christians

Well, I dunno, I hear there are solutions for that kind of problem.  Ovens?  No, no, that was a different religion.

Lions and the coliseums, that's the ticket!

Or maybe we can all just let ISIS figure it out; they seem to have been pretty effective in eliminating Christians in the Levant.

If you're gonna go all Trumper-hate on devout Christians, you should have the courage of your convictions and go all the way.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Well, I dunno, I hear there are solutions for that kind of problem.  Ovens?  No, no, that was a different religion.

Lions and the coliseums, that's the ticket!

Or maybe we can all just let ISIS figure it out; they seem to have been pretty effective in eliminating Christians in the Levant.

If you're gonna go all Trumper-hate on devout Christians, you should have the courage of your convictions and go all the way.

It seems to me like you are not as ashamed of your beliefs as you should be.  Don't you know that you are the problem with America today?  Turn the other cheek!!!  Forgive trespasses!!  Love thy neighbor!!!

You monster!!

If I wasn't a terrible, terrible holier-than-thou Christian, A-Lert would convince me to be one...because I could not stand enduring Hell if I had to spend it with him.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 07:56:28 am by Once-Ler »

A-Lert

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Well, I dunno, I hear there are solutions for that kind of problem.  Ovens?  No, no, that was a different religion.

Lions and the coliseums, that's the ticket!

Or maybe we can all just let ISIS figure it out; they seem to have been pretty effective in eliminating Christians in the Levant.

If you're gonna go all Trumper-hate on devout Christians, you should have the courage of your convictions and go all the way.

I never mentioned hate. Why did you?

Offline musiclady

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What a great thread.  I am really digging all the new blood and thoughtful opinions.  Thank you all!

Completely agree!  Our new members have already added greatly to the discussions here.

Good stuff!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sinkspur

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It seems to me like you are not as ashamed of your beliefs as you should be.  Don't you know that you are the problem with America today?  Turn the other cheek!!!  Forgive trespasses!!  Love thy neighbor!!!

You monster!!
If I wasn't a terrible, terrible holier-than-thou Christian, A-Lert would convince me to be one...because I could not stand enduring Hell if I had to spend it with him.

That's the best shot to the ribs I've seen here in a while......and the last one was from you too!!  LOL!!!
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.