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Offline sinkspur

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Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« on: April 17, 2016, 02:06:30 am »
Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
An arcane ballot process, complex rules and even the alphabet threaten to hold Trump back.


By KYLE CHENEY 04/16/16 07:24 AM EDT


Donald Trump has a new enemy in the fight for national convention delegates: the alphabet.

Trump is well-positioned for a resounding victory in West Virginia’s May 10 primary, but his win will be accompanied by a delegate selection process stacked in favor of people with last names at the beginning of the alphabet — rather than his most committed supporters.


It’s a quirk of West Virginia’s mind-bogglingly complex delegate election process that has the Trump campaign on red alert and seems likely to leave the mogul with weaker support at the national convention than he’s expected to earn in the state’s primary. It’s yet another convoluted primary system likely to add fuel to Trump’s complaints that the rules of the Republican nomination process are rigged.

“Not even Einstein could easily understand the selection process today,” said Mike Stuart, a former West Virginia Republican Party head and chairman of Trump’s campaign in the state.

“The delegate selection system is intentionally complicated, making it extremely hard for voters to control the commitment of delegates to any particular candidate,” Stuart said. “I think the selection process for delegates in West Virginia not only is bad. It may be the worst in the country.”

It’s also bad for Trump because even if he wins the popular vote in a landslide, how that support translates into delegates depends on his supporters’ ability to navigate a complicated, arcane and confusing voting system — the results of which are an open question.

West Virginia's Republican ballot is a six-page form that places the delegate elections behind dozens of state legislative and county races. Some voters, West Virginia GOP insiders said, stop voting before they make it to the delegates. But getting there is the easy part.

More than 220 people are running for 22 statewide slots as convention delegates. On the ballot, they’re divided based on the candidates they support and then listed alphabetically. There are 31 for Trump, 36 for Cruz and 10 for John Kasich, who failed to file a full slate of delegates. A fourth list includes 27 “uncommitted” candidates, and there are also lists of would-be delegates for candidates who have already dropped out.

Voters wishing to select a full slate of Trump delegates can choose up to 22 of them -- though if they inadvertently select 23 or more, all of their choices are thrown out. They must also be aware of a new rule to prohibit more than two delegates from residing in a single county -- and seven from a single Congressional district -- a stipulation that isn’t mentioned on the ballot.

Yet nine of the first 22 names on Trump’s list are from populous Kanawha County, where Charleston, the state capital, is located. And if Trump voters pick them all, seven would be automatically disqualified and replaced by delegates who fit the criteria.

“Unfortunately, this will be a very random process with so many candidates for so few spots,” said Bob Miller, Jr., an uncommitted contender.

Traditionally, voters have simply selected the first 22 names associated with the candidate they support -- and previous delegations have been heavy with surnames starting with A through C as a result.

“It’s really luck of the draw,” said Bob Adams, a Cruz supporter running to become a statewide delegate. “I’m the very first Cruz delegate that anyone in the state will see on the ballot.”

Stuart said the Trump campaign has a legal team ready to contest questionable results and will work overtime to ensure that voters know which Trump delegate candidates to back when they go to the polls.

Frustration is mounting in part because Trump’s allies are so bullish about his prospects in the West Virginia primary. The state’s coal-powered 3rd Congressional district is the heart of Appalachia, abutting counties in Kentucky, Virginia and Ohio that voted overwhelmingly for Trump in earlier primaries. The only recent public poll last month showed Trump with double the support of his closest rival, Ted Cruz.

Interviews and emails with more than 40 delegate candidates and West Virginia Republican leaders reveal a widespread belief that Trump is poised for a big win in the state, which supported Mitt Romney in the 2012 GOP primary and Mike Huckabee in 2008.

“The landscape in West Virginia is pretty heavily Trump,” said Ron Walters, a Trump backer who’s running to become a delegate from the state’s 2nd Congressional District. “My best guess tells me somewhere around 28 of the 34 will be Trump delegates.”

Indeed, West Virginia is shaping up to be Trump’s strongest state in a potentially bleak May, when Midwestern states like Indiana and Nebraska threaten to deliver a truckload of delegates to Cruz, his top rival for the GOP nomination. But if West Virginia’s onerous delegate process leaves Trump with less support than he earns, it lowers his odds of winning the nomination on a first vote at the convention and complicates his chances on a second.

This year, a new restriction that isn’t mentioned on the ballot could cause even greater turmoil for Trump. State Republicans decided to require geographic diversity among delegates — no more than seven statewide delegates may hail from a single Congressional district, and no more than two can come from a single county. Yet the first 22 names on Trump’s list include nine from populous Kanawha County. If voters follow traditional patterns, seven of them would be ineligible to go to the convention.

While Trump is at the mercy of a difficult ballot list, Cruz has installed a failsafe: he has recruited candidates with widespread name recognition.

“As an elected official and former Congressional candidate my name is relatively well known especially within the district,” said Marty Gearhart, who’s running to be a Cruz delegate from the state’s 3rd Congressional District., thus I think I have a good chance of being elected. I have been a delegate to the last two conventions.”

Among Cruz’s top allies is Alex Mooney, the Congressman from the Second Congressional District, who chairs Cruz’s West Virginia campaign. Mooney is running for a statewide delegate slot and will be the 24th name on the pro-Cruz list. Cruz also has support from the state’s national GOP committeewoman Melody Potter, one of three automatic delegates.

And Cruz’s backers aren’t all ready to cede the statewide contest to Trump, though most acknowledge Trump’s strength in coal country. Cruz held a fundraiser in West Virginia last month sponsored by Murray Energy, and West Virginia’s increasingly conservative lean has many voters there pining for a candidate they consider a “Constitutional conservative.”

“My case for Ted Cruz is you can absolutely trust the guy to stick to his conservative values,” Mooney said in a phone interview.

Even Cruz, however, faces difficulties due to the ballot’s complexities. His first 22 delegates are more evenly dispersed, though he too would lose five delegates for the same geographic restrictions.

That could open the door for a handful of “uncommitted” delegates – such as state Attorney General Patrick Morrisey – to make it to the convention. Recognizing that possibility, Stuart, Trump’s campaign chairman, is pleading with those uncommitted candidates to pledge support to the winner of the popular vote on May 10. So far, he’s had some luck.

will support whoever wins the WV popular vote,” said former state Republican Party chairman Douglas McKinney, an uncommitted delegate candidate, in an email.

“As uncommitted I will most likely follow what/who WV wants. I am as conservative as Cruz, but fed up as Trump,” said Kathie Hess Crouse, a candidate from Putnam County, in an email.

But a handful of uncommitted candidates expressed clear preferences. Dan Casto, for example, said he’s “firmly in the #neverTrump” camp. Kasich appears poised to pick up some support, too, from the “uncommitted” pool.

Miller said he’s leaning Kasich, and so did former state legislative candidate Bill Bell.

“I am an ‘undecided’ that will never support Donald Trump,” said Tally Reed, a pharmacist. “I have never run for a delegate position before nor have I been to a National Convention. If it comes down to Trump or Cruz, I will vote for Cruz … My preference would be Governor Kasich.”

Kris Warner, the state’s national GOP committeeman, says he’s undecided in the presidential contest, but he noted that Trump’s apparent mishandling of the delegate recruitment process could open the door to a Cruz comeback -- he sees Trump scoring no more than 20 of the state’s 34 delegates.

He also noted that a deep conservative strain that’s growing in West Virginia is reflected by its leaders’ support for Cruz. “Melody Potter and Congressman Mooney are excellent representatives of the people of West Virginia. By nature, we are a conservative lot. Our faith and family are very important to us,” he said.

It’s unclear if Trump or Cruz intends to campaign in West Virginia over the next month, but supporters of both candidates said personal visits could actually sway votes.

“I think that would make a big difference in West Virginia if a candidate actually took the time to come here and campaign,” said Laura Hayes-Shiflett, a Cruz delegate candidate.

Cruz’s supporters, who saw Trump rage against the Republican establishment after losing the delegate battle in Colorado, are bracing themselves for more complaints if West Virginia’s unusual delegate selection process ends up disadvantaging him.

“It’s blaming the refs for the game after you lose,” said Mooney. “This is just the system we have.”

But Stuart, the Trump campaign chairman, said West Virginia’s delegate selection process has needed reforming for years and that they’re “designed to maintain the status quo.”

“We could well be in post-election in West Virginia a period of serious examination of ballots and voting,” he said. “It’s not an anti-Trump rule. It’s just a bad way to select a president.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/trump-likely-to-win-west-virginia-but-lose-delegates-222036#ixzz462sSOUAV
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Bill Cipher

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 02:11:01 am »
Why are they rigged?  These rules have been in place for a long time - certainly they weren't invented to help Cruz - and the one who wins is the one who understands them the best.  If Trump were really as smart as all his supporters keep saying he is, then he'd have a team of first-rate people who could use the rules better than Cruz' team does.  But he doesn't.  The supposed paragon of deal-making has a third-rate JV team that would embarrass the candidates for local dog-catcher.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 02:13:33 am »
It's just amazing how poorly Trump has performed in the delegate process. I don't recall this kind of thing ever happening in my lifetime.

Why would we entrust this man with the presidency when he can't even figure out how to win delegates?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online libertybele

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 02:45:29 am »
One sentence in the article really resonates .."“Not even Einstein could easily understand the selection process today" ...obviously Ted Cruz has above average intelligence.  As his Harvard Law Professor, Alan Dershowitz sated:(referring to Cruz's time as a student at Harvard Law) "Cruz was off-the-charts brilliant".

Cruz obviously has done his homework while Donald is relying on his bullying tactics and spewing how great he is.  Obviously, Trump isn't all that.

Cruz 2016.  Reigniting the Promise of America!

Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Bill Cipher

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 02:47:18 am »
It's just amazing how poorly Trump has performed in the delegate process. I don't recall this kind of thing ever happening in my lifetime.

Why would we entrust this man with the presidency when he can't even figure out how to win delegates?

'Cause he employs 22,000 people, accordingly to @A-Lert, so everything will be ok once we give up our will to think and fall in line with the Trump machine.

Offline ABX

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 02:51:45 am »
Here is what is happening in West Virginia, Georgia, and many other States.

Example- Trump wins WV Precinct 1 giving him 3 delegate spots. Three weeks later, Precinct 1 comes together to select the delegates based on the votes.
Trump has 3 delegate spots assigned to him. He has no one working in Precinct 1 completing paper work and filing people to be those delegates.
3 Trump delegate spots are empty. The next person in line, Cruz, won 2 spots and he did the ground work and he has people in Precinct 1 completing the proper paperwork and signing up to be delegates.

Therefore Precinct 1 now has 2 delegates on record for Cruz, 0 for Trump.

Trump and his media friends like Drudge cry foul and cheating.

When in reality, it was Trump's own failure as a candidate to do what is necessary as a candidate after he wins the votes.

It is like winning a bid to build a casino then never showing up to actually build it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 02:53:53 am by AbaraXas »

Bill Cipher

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 03:00:38 am »
Here is what is happening in West Virginia, Georgia, and many other States.

Example- Trump wins WV Precinct 1 giving him 3 delegate spots. Three weeks later, Precinct 1 comes together to select the delegates based on the votes.
Trump has 3 delegate spots assigned to him. He has no one working in Precinct 1 completing paper work and filing people to be those delegates.
3 Trump delegate spots are empty. The next person in line, Cruz, won 2 spots and he did the ground work and he has people in Precinct 1 completing the proper paperwork and signing up to be delegates.

Therefore Precinct 1 now has 2 delegates on record for Cruz, 0 for Trump.

Trump and his media friends like Drudge cry foul and cheating.

When in reality, it was Trump's own failure as a candidate to do what is necessary as a candidate after he wins the votes.

It is like winning a bid to build a casino then never showing up to actually build it.


What an effing moron.  So this is how the vaunted businessman runs things?  This is how he'd run the White House and the government?  He'd do what, show up in the Oval Office on Jan. 21, 2017, and expect everything to just solve itself without his having to do anything, or even having to pick anybody to do anything for him?

geronl

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 06:46:59 am »
electing delegates by region, county, congressional district and such is a mess

The WV system really is hard to understand

A-Lert

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 08:28:02 am »
“Not even Einstein could easily understand the selection process today,” said Mike Stuart, a former West Virginia Republican Party head and chairman of Trump’s campaign in the state.

“The delegate selection system is intentionally complicated, making it extremely hard for voters to control the commitment of delegates to any particular candidate,” Stuart said. “I think the selection process for delegates in West Virginia not only is bad. It may be the worst in the country.


Essentially nullifying voter preference. 

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 08:50:19 am »
Quote
Donald Trump has a new enemy in the fight for national convention delegates: the alphabet.

Probably not the first time Trump has been tripped up by letters.  He a chocker.

Online libertybele

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 01:02:23 pm »
“Not even Einstein could easily understand the selection process today,” said Mike Stuart, a former West Virginia Republican Party head and chairman of Trump’s campaign in the state.

“The delegate selection system is intentionally complicated, making it extremely hard for voters to control the commitment of delegates to any particular candidate,” Stuart said. “I think the selection process for delegates in West Virginia not only is bad. It may be the worst in the country.


Essentially nullifying voter preference.

Yet, the same delegate process has been used in West Virginia for quite some time.  Obviously Trump FAILED to do his homework and is ignorant of the process.  Instead of getting his act together he'd rather whine and belly ache and blame everyone else ... meanwhile lying to his electorate as to how unfairly he is being treated.  Trump is despicable.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2016, 01:39:26 pm »
Yet, the same delegate process has been used in West Virginia for quite some time.  Obviously Trump FAILED to do his homework and is ignorant of the process....

That is correct. The delegate selection process is no different in West Virginia (or Georgia, or Wyoming, or in most other states) than it was in 2012, 2008, or 2004. The Trump campaign is source of their own problems, because it is characterized by spectacularly careless organization.

What Trump's minions fail to comprehend is that a political primary vote is not the end of a state campaign; it is the end of the first phase of that campaign. It is essential for a winning candidate to then turn his or her existing organization's abilities and assets toward securing a preferred slate of delegates when party members actually gather, district by district, to officially name them.

You need people - lots of them - working not only on paperwork, but on outreach: texting, emailing, calling, printing bulletins and flyers, asking people out for coffee to talk to them... it is hard work and takes a lot of hours, and yes, I've myself been involved in such bottom-up efforts. 

But the Trump "campaign", so-called, is not interested in such minutiae, preferring instead to follow their Leader's top-down, personality-driven orgy of accusations, bombast and insult.

My preferred candidate, Ted Cruz, may or not win in the end, though his campaign's "ground game" has been exemplary. Cruz's people are not cheating or stealing votes - they are comprehending and following the process, which is (by the way) about appealing to party activists about how your candidate will make their state's GOP victorious down the ballot, where they are likely to have more personal interests, as well as at the top.

I think that Trump is going to lose in the end, because he doesn't understand or care much at all about any process or concept that isn't all about him. And, with the exception of his GOP minority acolytes, people know it.
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Wingnut

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2016, 01:50:33 pm »
Trumps is running a Carrier pigeon campaign in an information super hi-way world.   Instead of delegates, all he has to show for his efforts are cages filled with pigeon poop,
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 01:51:02 pm by Wingnut »

Online libertybele

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2016, 01:59:02 pm »
That is correct. The delegate selection process is no different in West Virginia (or Georgia, or Wyoming, or in most other states) than it was in 2012, 2008, or 2004. The Trump campaign is source of their own problems, because it is characterized by spectacularly careless organization.

What Trump's minions fail to comprehend is that a political primary vote is not the end of a state campaign; it is the end of the first phase of that campaign. It is essential for a winning candidate to then turn his or her existing organization's abilities and assets toward securing a preferred slate of delegates when party members actually gather, district by district, to officially name them.

You need people - lots of them - working not only on paperwork, but on outreach: texting, emailing, calling, printing bulletins and flyers, asking people out for coffee to talk to them... it is hard work and takes a lot of hours, and yes, I've myself been involved in such bottom-up efforts. 

But the Trump "campaign", so-called, is not interested in such minutiae, preferring instead to follow their Leader's top-down, personality-driven orgy of accusations, bombast and insult.

My preferred candidate, Ted Cruz, may or not win in the end, though his campaign's "ground game" has been exemplary. Cruz's people are not cheating or stealing votes - they are comprehending and following the process, which is (by the way) about appealing to party activists about how your candidate will make their state's GOP victorious down the ballot, where they are likely to have more personal interests, as well as at the top.

I think that Trump is going to lose in the end, because he doesn't understand or care much at all about any process or concept that isn't all about him. And, with the exception of his GOP minority acolytes, people know it.

Exactly... " Trump's minions fail to comprehend is that a political primary vote is not the end of a state campaign.." As I stated earlier, Trump has bragged that he would hire the best people as president. The people that he hired to catapult him to victory are neither competent or knowledgeable ... not the kind of people we need running our country. Unfortunately the man who wants to be president is just as incompetent and ignorant.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 01:59:37 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Bill Cipher

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2016, 03:49:33 pm »
That is correct. The delegate selection process is no different in West Virginia (or Georgia, or Wyoming, or in most other states) than it was in 2012, 2008, or 2004. The Trump campaign is source of their own problems, because it is characterized by spectacularly careless organization.

What Trump's minions fail to comprehend is that a political primary vote is not the end of a state campaign; it is the end of the first phase of that campaign. It is essential for a winning candidate to then turn his or her existing organization's abilities and assets toward securing a preferred slate of delegates when party members actually gather, district by district, to officially name them.

You need people - lots of them - working not only on paperwork, but on outreach: texting, emailing, calling, printing bulletins and flyers, asking people out for coffee to talk to them... it is hard work and takes a lot of hours, and yes, I've myself been involved in such bottom-up efforts. 

But the Trump "campaign", so-called, is not interested in such minutiae, preferring instead to follow their Leader's top-down, personality-driven orgy of accusations, bombast and insult.

My preferred candidate, Ted Cruz, may or not win in the end, though his campaign's "ground game" has been exemplary. Cruz's people are not cheating or stealing votes - they are comprehending and following the process, which is (by the way) about appealing to party activists about how your candidate will make their state's GOP victorious down the ballot, where they are likely to have more personal interests, as well as at the top.

I think that Trump is going to lose in the end, because he doesn't understand or care much at all about any process or concept that isn't all about him. And, with the exception of his GOP minority acolytes, people know it.

goopo

Wait, let me say that again:

goopo

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2016, 02:40:39 am »
A-Lert wrote above:
"“Not even Einstein could easily understand the selection process today,” said Mike Stuart, a former West Virginia Republican Party head and chairman of Trump’s campaign in the state.
...
Essentially nullifying voter preference."


Well, that's just too bad.
Rules are rules, y'know.

To paraphrase what a wise mustachioed Soviet leader once said:
"It doesn't matter what voter preference may be, what matters is who makes the rules!"


Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2016, 02:53:26 am »
Donny Trump's campaign.....where failure is an option.

Bill Cipher

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Re: Trump likely to win West Virginia but lose delegates
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2016, 03:04:39 am »
A-Lert wrote above:
"“Not even Einstein could easily understand the selection process today,” said Mike Stuart, a former West Virginia Republican Party head and chairman of Trump’s campaign in the state.
...
Essentially nullifying voter preference."


Well, that's just too bad.
Rules are rules, y'know.

To paraphrase what a wise mustachioed Soviet leader once said:
"It doesn't matter what voter preference may be, what matters is who makes the rules!"



/snicker


You mean the general election has been and gone already?