Convert or Die: Living in the Age of Trump

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Silence/consent is well established as a legitimate maxim.....

In certain limited contexts, yes.

In the context of having to disavow -- and have that disavowal heard and recognized by you personally - every single statement made by any supporter of a particularly candidate, it is illegitimate and unreasonable.

[skeeter]

So whichever side shuts up first is most likely to get your vote?

Sad to say, but that's probably what happened with me.  Removing myself from the nutbags at TOS actually made me more likely to vote for Trump.  That's really a terrible reason, but I have to admit it probably affected my thinking.

Well put. And y'know, thats exactly the way I feel.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

So whichever side shuts up first is most likely to get your vote?

Sad to say, but that's probably what happened with me.  Removing myself from the nutbags at TOS actually made me more likely to vote for Trump.  That's really a terrible reason, but I have to admit it probably affected my thinking.

I'm just stating a fact. It may, and shouldn't, have any bearing on my decision in November. I need to choose what is best for the country. Period.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Team Trump's halos are very tarnished.  They are left trying to excuse their own for saying he will "hunt you down like a dog" to anyone not voting Trump.  Oh yes.  The fault is the #NeverTrumper.  How in the world could he feel alarmed by that?  /s

Ugh....

Is it possible to have just a touch of honesty in these discussions?

Someone saying that "nevertrumpers will be hunt down like dogs" is making a stupid, classless, immature statement.  At the same time, nevertrumpers who try to elevate that juvenile bit of hyperbole to an actual threat to literally hunt people down with dogs are being melodramatic, and disingenuous themselves.

Pointing that out is not defending the chucklehead who made the stupid comment in the first place.  It is pointing out that nobody is covering themselves with glory in this discussion.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I'm just stating a fact. It may, and shouldn't, have any bearing on my decision in November. I need to choose what is best for the country. Period.

No disagreement there.  That's why I admire what Cruz did.  Not because he reached that particular decision, but because he honestly believes it would be best for the country despite his personal distaste for the man.  I've come to the same conclusion -- for pretty much the exact same reasons -- but I understand why others may not.  What I don't understanding is the antipathy, coming from both directions, towards those who've come to a different conclusion on a difficult decision.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Ugh....

Is it possible to have just a touch of honesty in these discussions?

Someone saying that "nevertrumpers will be hunt down like dogs" is making a stupid, classless, immature statement.  At the same time, nevertrumpers who try to elevate that juvenile bit of hyperbole to an actual threat to literally hunt people down with dogs are being melodramatic, and disingenuous themselves.

Pointing that out is not defending the chucklehead who made the stupid comment in the first place.  It is pointing out that nobody is covering themselves with glory in this discussion.

To be fair, Trumpsters don't gain any converts with that crap either. A pox on both your houses!

You have hit a golden truth in your comments though, there is a fundamental lack of honesty in political punditry these days. It's on all sides: libs, cons, pro trumps, never trumps.

I have made a commitment to be as honest, truthful, and objective as humanly possible. If I want to be honest I will say that I haven't always achieved that bar. But I do put effort into trying. 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I guess you don't know of anyone ever hunted down with dogs? Where I grew up, K-9 units pursued fugitives routinely.

Criminals, yes.  Assuming that state and local police organizations, or even the federal Marshal Service, would start using dogs to hunt down everyone who didn't vote for Trump is just....

Ok, I give up.  You guys value this rhetorical point too much to be honest even with yourselves, so expecting you to drop the pretense and discuss this honestly here is too much.

I suggest building a giant bunker in your backyard, with 4 years of food, and a lot of dog treats to lead them off the scent.  Maybe you guys will manage to survive.

Good luck!

[Suppressed]

Anyone seriously worried about baying hounds tracking down and savaging those who didn't vote for Trump has bigger problems than who is going to win the election.

When I was a newspaper editor, leftist activists tried to burn down my publisher's house with him in it.  Fortunately, he woke and only the porch was burned.

Threats can be indications of very serious intent.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

To be fair, Trumpsters don't gain any converts with that crap either. A pox on both your houses!

Oh, there's no question about it.  It is the most bizarre election I've seen.  Cruz comes out and announces his support for Trump, and some Trump supporters take that as a signal to be particularly nasty towards Cruz supporters.  It is as if actually winning the election they supposedly care so much about is less important that the catharsis they get from insulting other people.

All of us sometimes let our emotions interfere with our rationale judgments, but we generally at least try to overcome that.  Some on both sides apparently have no interest in doing so.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

When I was a newspaper editor, leftist activists tried to burn down my publisher's house with him in it.  Fortunately, he woke and only the porch was burned.

Threats can be indications of very serious intent.

That's true.  But do you not see a difference in plausibility between specific threats against a specific individual for particular actions, and a ridiculously broad "we're going to hunt down with dogs everyone who didn't vote for Trump" threat against a majority of the country?

Look, I think it's pretty damn obvious that what was meant by that admittedly stupid comment (or at least, the only remotely plausible, real-world interpretation) was that there would be political retribution for Republicans who didn't back Trump.  I still think even that is wrong, and reflects badly on those making the threat, but some folks here are taking the "dogs" literally just so they have another arrow in their rhetorical quiver.

[Cripplecreek]

When I was a newspaper editor, leftist activists tried to burn down my publisher's house with him in it.  Fortunately, he woke and only the porch was burned.

Threats can be indications of very serious intent.

Threats often have the intended purpose of inspiring the unstable to action.

[Smokin Joe]

Ugh....

Is it possible to have just a touch of honesty in these discussions?

Someone saying that "nevertrumpers will be hunt down like dogs" is making a stupid, classless, immature statement.  At the same time, nevertrumpers who try to elevate that juvenile bit of hyperbole to an actual threat to literally hunt people down with dogs are being melodramatic, and disingenuous themselves.

Pointing that out is not defending the chucklehead who made the stupid comment in the first place.  It is pointing out that nobody is covering themselves with glory in this discussion.

I would refer you to the title of the thread. "Convert or Die"?

In that lovely context, physical threats should be called out.

Period.

Let the hyperbole remain in the title.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I would refer you to the title of the thread. "Convert or Die"? In that lovely context, physical threats should be called out.

I would point out that the "lovely context" was established by someone who is anti-Trump.

Let the hyperbole remain in the title.

The recognition that this was hyperbole is all I was ever looking for.  Thanks.

[Doug Loss]

My only quibble with your comment is the bolded insert.

It's been 15 months of rabid neverTrump insults: mockery, derision, sanctimony and bile. Lies about our character, morals, intelligence; and hatred from former collegial folks directed at long time "friends" here at TBR.

And here I thought this was America.

I do believe you're projecting your own behavior onto those who disagree with you.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I do believe you're projecting your own behavior onto those who disagree with you.

The problem with responding in kind to insults and rude behavior/name calling is that after awhile, people can no longer remember who started it.  There has been plenty of name-calling on both sides for so long that it has all kind of blended together into this sea of utter muck.  Every involved on both sides are the pigs, and they all do seem to enjoy it.

[aligncare]

Criminals, yes.  Assuming that state and local police organizations, or even the federal Marshal Service, would start using dogs to hunt down everyone who didn't vote for Trump is just....

Ok, I give up.  You guys value this rhetorical point too much to be honest even with yourselves, so expecting you to drop the pretense and discuss this honestly here is too much.

I suggest building a giant bunker in your backyard, with 4 years of food, and a lot of dog treats to lead them off the scent.  Maybe you guys will manage to survive.

Good luck!

Please forgive me, don't take this the wrong way.

You seem to still hold out hope that you're arguing with rational folks, people who are thinking of the politics of this race. But, in my humble opinion, #NeverTrump is unconcerned about the very real political fallout to the country of a Hillary presidency.

No, in my opinion #NeverTrump is an organized, collective emotional yelp. Nothing more. In time, as their emotion subsides, reality begins to unclog their thinking and the dominos continue falling.

But I do marvel at your patience.   

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Please forgive me, don't take this the wrong way.

You seem to still hold out hope that you're arguing with rational folks, people who are thinking of the politics of this race. But, in my humble opinion, #NeverTrump is unconcerned about the very real political fallout to the country of a Hillary presidency.

No, in my opinion #NeverTrump is an organized, collective emotional yelp. Nothing more. In time, as their emotion subsides, reality begins to unclog their thinking and the dominos continue falling.

But I do marvel at your patience.   

Dude, I do apply that to both sides, as you may remember from our recent run-in on another thread....

I think it is a mistake to lump all nevertrump into the same basket, just as it is a mistake to lump all Trump supporters into the same basket.  Each poster/person should be judged on what he/she says, not on what other people in their particular movement may have said or done.  People have lot of different reasons for coming to the conclusions they reach, and I think it is only fair to judge people as individuals.  Anyway, it really is less patience than sort of a fascination at the whole phenomenon on both sides.  When I see people who clearly are intelligent on both sides, and it degenerates into name-calling...I just find that interesting as hell.

[Smokin Joe]

Criminals, yes.  Assuming that state and local police organizations, or even the federal Marshal Service, would start using dogs to hunt down everyone who didn't vote for Trump is just....

Ok, I give up.  You guys value this rhetorical point too much to be honest even with yourselves, so expecting you to drop the pretense and discuss this honestly here is too much.

I suggest building a giant bunker in your backyard, with 4 years of food, and a lot of dog treats to lead them off the scent.  Maybe you guys will manage to survive.

Good luck!

Dogs are increasingly used in law enforcement. If the police don't like the way you look and can't come up with any other reason to search your vehicle when you say you would just as soon be on your way, they bring in the dog to sniff for 'probable cause'. Since most cash has some traces of cocaine or other drugs on it, bingo. If they are pursuing a suspect off in the weeds, they bring in the dogs.

While using them to hunt down a politically opposed group may seem hyperbolic, they have been used in the past to do just that. Out of consideration for the requests of the owners, I won't post those images, but you likely know who I am talking about, and they are far from the only ones.

As for having a bunker in the back yard, with 4 years worth of food, it would be nice. One can dream. The dog likes treats, too. Besides, we get the stray tornado through this way, and I wouldn't mind having the extra storage either. The only problem is that at this latitude and with this climate (6 ft. frost depth), the floor would have to be 15 to 20 feet down, and that's a lot of digging.

[Smokin Joe]

Please forgive me, don't take this the wrong way.

You seem to still hold out hope that you're arguing with rational folks, people who are thinking of the politics of this race. But, in my humble opinion, #NeverTrump is unconcerned about the very real political fallout to the country of a Hillary presidency.

No, in my opinion #NeverTrump is an organized, collective emotional yelp. Nothing more. In time, as their emotion subsides, reality begins to unclog their thinking and the dominos continue falling.

But I do marvel at your patience.   

You remind me of the kid who sits behind someone in class and pokes them with a pencil when the teacher isn't looking. Poke, poke, poke, poke... When the kid getting poked has had enough of your crap and gets up and pops you one, you go whining to the teacher.

I know your type. Quit being a passive aggressive jerk, and people will be nicer to you.

[aligncare]

Dude, I do apply that to both sides, as you may remember from our recent run-in on another thread....

I think it is a mistake to lump all nevertrump into the same basket, just as it is a mistake to lump all Trump supporters into the same basket.  Each poster/person should be judged on what he/she says, not on what other people in their particular movement may have said or done.  People have lot of different reasons for coming to the conclusions they reach, and I think it is only fair to judge people as individuals.  Anyway, it really is less patience than sort of a fascination at the whole phenomenon on both sides.  When I see people who clearly are intelligent on both sides, and it degenerates into name-calling...I just find that interesting as hell.

You misunderstand me. When I speak of #NeverTrump, I'm talking about #NeverTrump, not your average voter or any specific person. (Frankly, I don't read many of the responses here, so I don't know any particular member's stance unless their tagline includes something about #NeverTrump.)

I'm talking about the extreme #NeverTrumpers here, those individuals who simply respond to dog whistles orchestrated by the Democrats and the #NeverTrumps at NR. Who post misleading headlines or engage solely in derision and mockery.

In my experience, the average voter takes the time to look at the candidates. After long consideration, they might say, you know I don't agree with candidate A, their economic plan, their immigration and foreign policy, their position on States rights issues, energy policy. That sort of thing. Not, "Donald Trump is insane." How does one argue with such inanity

Surely you see  how difficult it is to penetrate their reason? In my opinion, organized #NeverTrump is not your average republican voter. Heck, you've argued with them long and hard and you've  made clear points – good ones, that they completely ignore. Tell me they're not emotionally afflicted and invested?

(In case anyone hasn't noticed, I dislike #NeverTrump. I think it is bad, read dangerous, for our political process at this time in history.)

[sinkspur]

No, in my opinion #NeverTrump is an organized, collective emotional yelp. Nothing more. In time, as their emotion subsides, reality begins to unclog their thinking and the dominos continue falling.

What condescending bullshit!  You're the one backing an ignorant ass for the highest office in the land.  I've thought rationally and concluded that I won't vote for a mental incompetent.

[TomSea]

Throwing everything and the kitchen sink, resurrecting these old threads.

[sinkspur]

You misunderstand me. When I speak of #NeverTrump, I'm talking about #NeverTrump, not your average voter or any specific person. (Frankly, I don't read many of the responses here, so I don't know any particular member's stance unless their tagline includes something about #NeverTrump.)

I'm talking about the extreme #NeverTrumpers here, those individuals who simply respond to dog whistles orchestrated by the Democrats and the #NeverTrumps at NR. Who post misleading headlines or engage solely in derision and mockery.

In my experience, the average voter takes the time to look at the candidates. After long consideration, they might say, you know I don't agree with candidate A, their economic plan, their immigration and foreign policy, their position on States rights issues, energy policy. That sort of thing. Not, "Donald Trump is insane." How does one argue with such inanity

Surely you see  how difficult it is to penetrate their reason? In my opinion, organized #NeverTrump is not your average republican voter. Heck, you've argued with them long and hard and you've  made clear points – good ones, that they completely ignore. Tell me they're not emotionally afflicted and invested?

(In case anyone hasn't noticed, I dislike #NeverTrump. I think it is bad, read dangerous, for our political process at this time in history.)

You're very practiced at projection.  You know, the very characteristics you criticize are, in fact, the most glaring that YOU possess.  You attribute #NeverTrump to emotion, yet that's all you ever exhibit in your posts.  Childish outbursts with no facts. 

In case you haven't noticed, #NeverTrump despises Donald J. Trump.  He is a lying cretin, extemely ignorant, and totally self-centered.   I sleep well at night knowing I will vote for neither Trump nor Hillary.

[Night Hides Not]

You're very practiced at projection.  You know, the very characteristics you criticize are, in fact, the most glaring that YOU possess.  You attribute #NeverTrump to emotion, yet that's all you ever exhibit in your posts.  Childish outbursts with no facts. 

In case you haven't noticed, #NeverTrump despises Donald J. Trump.  He is a lying cretin, extemely ignorant, and totally self-centered.   I sleep well at night knowing I will vote for neither Trump nor Hillary.

Spur, it's much simpler for me. As a Texan, I do not trust New York values, and Trump embodies those.

Socially liberal
Pro-abortion
Pro-gay marriage
Focus around money and the media
High taxes
Big government
Cradle to grave entitlements

[LMAO]

In all honesty, does anyone actually believe that admittedly stupid comments like that were really meant literally? As in actual dogs hunting down the tens of millions who didn't vote for Trump?

I mean, does anyone actually believe that?

@Maj. Bill Martin

No.

This is an election cycle of maximum hyperbole. I've heard Clinton backers say roughly the same type of things if Trump wins.

Not that terribly long ago many on the left were insisting that GWB will find an excuse to stop the 2008 elections so he can stay in office longer than his two terms. They really believed this. I know because I used to work with one who insisted such. And I read their blogs at the time. Know your enemy kind of thing

I don't agree with the concept of holding everyone else responsible if a candidate loses,however