Convert or Die: Living in the Age of Trump

[Norm Lenhart]

Ok

My point is a fair inference from your statement.  You stated what Trump supporters in general deserve, without distibguishing between those who have engaged in poor conduct themselves, and those who have not.

No it isn't considering you can go back to my post that started this where I was crystal clear on the subject. And it had nothing to do with the nonsense you inferred.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

When they act as part of a dangerous mob? Yup. When they take individual responsibility for their actions, and behave like something other than feral animals 'hunting people down with dogs', we can get back to treating them as individuals.

.

How is a Trump supporter who does not engage in that behavior supposed to take personal responsibility for things he/she did not do?  Do they still "deserve" tgat same treatment?

[Norm Lenhart]

.

How is a Trump supporter who does not engage in that behavior supposed to take personal responsibility for things he/she did not do?

Silence is support and approval. We ALL see people across the country, including on this very site using pretty direct language like "Take care of", 'Hunt down with dogs etc'. Then we see people like you minimizing it and making excuses. What I don't see is you or any Trump supporter calling them out on being the violent little fascist wannabees they are.

IIRC you argued with me when I said people are responsible for who they vote for. Now you are gonna argue they arent responsible/don't share responsibility for being silent supporters in the crowd? Just when do you FEEL people are responsible? Are all the people cheering BLM on in any way responsible there? How about the "I didn' see nuffins" that applaud in private the actions done on their behalf?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The followers of Robespierre would never do stuff like that....

Right.  Because we are really living in 18th century revolutionary France.

There is a segment of nevertrump that is becoming as detached from reality and reasoned discussion as any rabid Trump supporter.

[ConstitutionRose]

Has the concept of judging people as individuals completely vanished?

I hope not.  Outside of the fact that my dog reacted to the tension in the room and directed his warning to the angry voice, think about what happened.

In a room full of strangers this man could have spoken about why he is a Trump supporter.  Since he had a more or less captive audience, they would have heard.  He could have even responded to questions and comments in a reasonable and positive manner.  (It's not like anyone was expressing support for Clinton.)

Instead he was loud, angry and abusive.  It was my 1st encounter with a Trump supporter.  (I've only heard of one in our social and business circles).  I imagine the others in the room were just as repelled as I was.  As an advocate for Trump the man was an utter failure.

I don't think you can deny that Trump has attracted a large contingent of angry people.  People who express very authoritarian ideas.  People who express a lack of tolerance for ideas other than there own.

What that man apparently did not understand is that to all those souls sitting in that room he represented Trump.  His behavior and Clinton's TV ads are all they will ever know of Trump.

[Suppressed]

They will harass you, censor you, wish for your death, and threaten to kill you if you do not convert.

Donald U Akbar.

And the Trump Militant are so clueless as to not even see the irony of claiming to be anti-Islamic-conversion.

[Night Hides Not]

Right.  Because we are really living in 18th century revolutionary France.

There is a segment of nevertrump that is becoming as detached from reality and reasoned discussion as any rabid Trump supporter.

FWIW, I am very uncomfortable with the ease with which Nazi metaphors have been cast, no matter which side of the aisle they come from. They represent an alarming degree of intellectual laziness from those expressing them.

I was stationed in Germany for the entirety of the Carter administration, and six months of Reagan. Yes, I extended my tour because I was having a blast, professionally and personally. During my last 2 1/2 years, most of my weekends were free for travel, unlike my first two, where I pulled Staff Duty Officer every other weekend, and 1-2 times during the week (IOW, I was on duty 24 hours).

I lived a dozen miles off post, ergo, no TV for 4 years. I visited Dachau and Flossenburg twice each, and Dachau is the most sobering place I've ever visited. I'm sure Auschwitz would give me the same reaction.

The first time I visited Flossenburg, there were no directional signs to the site. A couple of times I'd stop, and ask for directions. None of the people I spoke to offered any assistance.

[Night Hides Not]

I hope not.  Outside of the fact that my dog reacted to the tension in the room and directed his warning to the angry voice, think about what happened.

In a room full of strangers this man could have spoken about why he is a Trump supporter.  Since he had a more or less captive audience, they would have heard.  He could have even responded to questions and comments in a reasonable and positive manner.  (It's not like anyone was expressing support for Clinton.)

Instead he was loud, angry and abusive.  It was my 1st encounter with a Trump supporter.  (I've only heard of one in our social and business circles).  I imagine the others in the room were just as repelled as I was.  As an advocate for Trump the man was an utter failure.

I don't think you can deny that Trump has atraced a large contingent of angry people.  People who express very authoritarian ideas.  People who express a lack of tolerance for ideas other than there own.  Online they issue threats and personal abuse.

What that man apparently did not understand is that to all those souls sitting in that room he represented Trump.  His behavior and Clinton's TV ads are all they will ever know of Trump.

Don't feel bad, Rose. I have several in-laws that live near us, and they're all on the Trump Train. My wife is constantly badgered by her sisters for being a NeverTrumper. They know better than to bring up the subject with me. After all, I'm the one that encouraged them to switch from Dem to Rep when we still lived in El Paso.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Silence is support and approval.

Since it makes it appear as if the "movement" has the people's conplete support. So then it becomes imperative for any such "movement" to silence opposition by any means necessary.

That way any action that the government takes is labeled as justifiable since it is done in behalf of and with the complete support of the people.

[Cripplecreek]

I hope not.  Outside of the fact that my dog reacted to the tension in the room and directed his warning to the angry voice, think about what happened.

In a room full of strangers this man could have spoken about why he is a Trump supporter.  Since he had a more or less captive audience, they would have heard.  He could have even responded to questions and comments in a reasonable and positive manner.  (It's not like anyone was expressing support for Clinton.)

Instead he was loud, angry and abusive.  It was my 1st encounter with a Trump supporter.  (I've only heard of one in our social and business circles).  I imagine the others in the room were just as repelled as I was.  As an advocate for Trump the man was an utter failure.

I don't think you can deny that Trump has atraced a large contingent of angry people.  People who express very authoritarian ideas.  People who express a lack of tolerance for ideas other than there own.  Online they issue threats and personal abuse.

What that man apparently did not understand is that to all those souls sitting in that room he represented Trump.  His behavior and Clinton's TV ads are all they will ever know of Trump.

The Trump supporter who ran in my House district's GOP primary sent out an angry shouting phone message that only left me knowing that I would vote against him. He lost by a nearly 80/20 margin.

When I picked up the phone a voice started shouting at me about foreigners taking our jobs overseas and Messicans invading our neighborhoods. And then says he supports the NEED act which was a Dennis Kucinich sponsored 0% unemployment plan (0% unemployment is an impossibility in a free society)


Now the democrats are running against my GOP congressman with the Trump economic issues.

[aligncare]

Right.  Because we are really living in 18th century revolutionary France.

There is a segment of nevertrump that is becoming (becoming?) as detached from reality and reasoned discussion as any rabid Trump supporter.

My only quibble with your comment is the bolded insert.

It's been 15 months of rabid neverTrump insults: mockery, derision, sanctimony and bile. Lies about our character, morals, intelligence; and hatred from former collegial folks directed at long time "friends" here at TBR.

And here I thought this was America.

[Night Hides Not]

My only quibble with your comment is the bolded insert.

It's been 15 months of rabid neverTrump insults: mockery, derision, sanctimony and bile. Lies about our character, morals, intelligence; and hatred from former collegial folks directed at long time "friends" here at TBR.

And here I thought this was America.

I'm a newbie here, after nearly 18 years at TOS. The points you make in your post can more than equally be ascribed to those riding the Trump Train.

I refrained from responding to your posts after Cruz said he would vote for Trump. I found them to be quite condescending and devoid of grace.

Apologies if you take my rejoinder to be mockery. I prefer to use memes, as a picture is often worth a thousand words.

Your last sentence outs you as intellectually lazy, and deficient in your understanding of American civics and history. I recommend you study the period of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, and the arguments that flowed during the convention. Windows were closed on the order of George Washington, to keep the exchange of ideas flowing, and to keep the media from reporting on the discussions.

Benjamin Franklin's wine cellar also played an important role in maintaining comity with the delegates. Nearly every afternoon, as discussions reached a boiling point, he would recommend that they call it a day, and enjoy libations in the cool of his cellar. I can't imagine being in Philadelphia during the summer, with windows closed, and how they dressed back then. Compared to them, we're all snowflakes searching for a safe space.

[Wingnut]

Now the democrats are running against my GOP congressman with the Trump economic issues.

Man you are up cripplecreek without a paddle. 

[Night Hides Not]

Man you are up cripplecreek without a paddle.

What did you expect? Trump's spending priorities are double Hillary's and he's for more borrowing, with interest rates where they're at.

We not only do not have a paddle, our boat is taking on water.

[TomSea]

It seems a lot of Never Trumpers were Never Romneys too; a lot of good their "principled stand" does for Republicans, they helped Obama into office.

And here, this thread is 6 months old or so; like one resurrected in the editorial section, it seems pretty desperate.

There are no police records where one says, Oh, the Trump supporters did this, all one can point to are some fracases at rallies where likely were provoked.

Eric Erichson's positions are themselves questionable.

[Smokin Joe]

A buddy of mine has a St. Bernard that locked onto one. I cant remember the count but it was north of 100 quills in his face. The dog couldn't drop the porc and between the porc fighting to get away and the dog chomping on it and making matters worse, it was a bloody mess by the time it was over.

After the vet extracted the porcupine and it's quills after knocking the dog out, said dog had a face that looked like a balloon for a couple weeks.

Yup. did it again a year or so later.

A friend of mine had a couple of dobies that tangled with one. They only got a couple dozen quills each, but helping get those out was miserable duty--and I wasn't the one stuck. Within a year, they'd done it again...

[Norm Lenhart]

It seems a lot of Never Trumpers were Never Romneys too; a lot of good their "principled stand" does for Republicans, they helped Obama into office.

And here, this thread is 6 months old or so; like one resurrected in the editorial section, it seems pretty desperate.

There are no police records where one says, Oh, the Trump supporters did this, all one can point to are some fracases at rallies where likely were provoked.

Eric Erichson's positions are themselves questionable.

You might be fine with electing a guy that profits from the incineration of the dead bodies of children his own abortion laws ad governor killed, but some people arent that liberal. Or evil.

[Norm Lenhart]

Team Trump's halos are very tarnished.  They are left trying to excuse their own for saying he will "hunt you down like a dog" to anyone not voting Trump.  Oh yes.  The fault is the #NeverTrumper.  How in the world could he feel alarmed by that?  /s

they never speak against that. They never speak against "Prayers" to their candidate. they never speak against flip flops. they never speak against many liberal positions. They never speak against Trumps outright lies.

Their actions/positions are indistinguishable from those of an open Democrat liberal because those are all things Democrat Liberals are well known for. Quacks like a duck.

[Smokin Joe]

Anyone seriously worried about baying hounds tracking down and savaging those who didn't vote for Trump has bigger problems than who is going to win the election.

It was a stupid, chest-thumping post for anyone to make, but it's blindingly obvious that it was meant as a metaphor for paying a political price, not actually hunting people down with dogs.

This is really you guys being as melodramatic as the poster who made that statement in the first place.  Not really sure you want to be in that company.

I guess you don't know of anyone ever hunted down with dogs? Where I grew up, K-9 units pursued fugitives routinely.
With some of the Trump supporters' rhetoric, the statement may be hyperbole, but thinly veiled fantasy is more like it.
They tend to be angry people and angry people have been known to do stupid things. Calling out that sort of rhetoric and asking for it to stop is well within the rules of this forum. If we are going to have civil discussion, let's dispense with talk of physically attacking each other and have civil discussion.

Those who have threatened my physical well-being have been taken quite seriously over the years, and were the reason I obtained my first concealed weapons permit. If you have ever been at the receiving end of the not-so-tender ministrations of a group of people trying to do you bodily harm, you wouldn't f**k around with people who threaten you, either.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Silence is support and approval.

First, that's ridiculous.  There are millions of people who support Trump, and keeping up on all their statements and actions so that you can disavow any that are offensive is beyond the capacity of any human.  It would be equally ridiculous to hold all supporters of Cruz, or Castle, or NeverTrumpers responsible for everything done by any of them unless they expressly disavow it.  That's an absurd standard.

Second, how do you know that a particular Trump supporter hasn't disavowed or expressed disagreement with stupid/threatening statements?  Are they all required to email you so that you can keep a list of who is naughty, and who is nice?

We ALL see people across the country, including on this very site using pretty direct language like "Take care of", 'Hunt down with dogs etc'. Then we see people like you minimizing it and making excuses. What I don't see is you or any Trump supporter calling them out on being the violent little fascist wannabees they are.

I've said it was a stupid statement, and if it happens to come up in conversation, I'll call out any ridiculous/extreme statement, from any side.  In fact, I called out @aligncare on another thread for being rude and lacking grace with respect to Cruz's announcement.

To me, the "hunt down with dogs" statement reeks of hyperbole, as does the response of those who are trying to maintain straight faces while saying "yes, I really do worry that they're going to be hunting us with dogs."  But I certainly don't feel a moral obligation to respond to every single stupid/offensive thing other people say.  For you to infer "support and approval" by me or any else from a failure to do that is absurd.

IIRC you argued with me when I said people are responsible for who they vote for.

I said that voters are not responsible for every thing every person they voted for does.   It is the nature of representative democracy that we do not get to elect perfect candidates.  Now, you can choose to vote only for those candidates who reflect perfectly your worldview, but in the vast majority of cases, that is going to mean you are casting a vote for someone who has no chance of winning, which to my mind is essentially an abrogation of responsibility.

are gonna argue they arent responsible/don't share responsibility for being silent supporters in the crowd?

What exactly is a "silent supporter in the crowd"?  Any person who does not expressly disavow every single stupid thing said by someone else who happens to support the same candidate?  As I said above, that is a ridiculous, unworkable standard.  Moreover, unless you are somehow sufficiently omniscient to be instantly aware of every statement of disavow made by every person, you are inherently going to be judging people in ignorance -- assuming that because you are unaware of them disavowing something, they have not in fact done so.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Considering the crap his supporters have pulled? That IS the respect they earned.

That moment when GBR #nevertrump became indistinguishable from liberals.

Not all #nevertrumps say stupid crap like that, but the ones here seem to revel in it.

I'm not a Trumpster, still cannot decided on hwo to proceed in November, but you don't endear me to your cause by saying Trump supporters deserve violence and theft.

[Norm Lenhart]

First, that's ridiculous. 

I snipped the rest as it's just more denial, diversion and excuses.

Silence/consent is well established as a legitimate maxim and in use for far longer than Trump has been alive. Your entire rant comes down to one thing. you want your cake and to eat it too. No more, no less.

You are responsible for everything a pol does if your vote helped put him in office. He would not be there otherwise. Thats why they are called your elected REPRESENTATIVES.

Don't be obtuse. you know full well what a silent supporter is.

[Smokin Joe]

Since it makes it appear as if the "movement" has the people's conplete support. So then it becomes imperative for any such "movement" to silence opposition by any means necessary.

That way any action that the government takes is labeled as justifiable since it is done in behalf of and with the complete support of the people.

The first person in the room who stands up and speaks against something can spur others who were more timid to stand and speak against it as well.
It took a child who had not been intimidated to 'expose' the Emperor's absence of clothes.

The totalitarian objective becomes not only one of keeping that first person from standing up, but one of stopping the people from even considering the idea of objecting. Those who cannot be wheedled, cajoled, bribed, intimidated, 'reeducated', or beaten into silence will be eliminated in a totalitarian society. IIRC, Bill Ayres, when he was active in the Weathermen in the '60s expected the 'elimination' of an estimated 25 million Americans who would not be 'reeducated'.

[Norm Lenhart]

That moment when GBR #nevertrump became indistinguishable from liberals.

Not all #nevertrumps say stupid crap like that, but the ones here seem to revel in it.

I'm not a Trumpster, still cannot decided on hwo to proceed in November, but you don't endear me to your cause by saying Trump supporters deserve violence and theft.

Sorry, I ran that through Google Translator and it came back with nothing. I figured it must be in another language because in English it looks like you accuse me of doing what Trump supporters are on record of. Which is pure projection on your part. So if you can point to me saying trump supporters deserve violence, do so. YOU used those words. My opening statement was clear. they should be scorned.

Now Do I think they should get whatever they dish out first? Yup. If that includes violence, thats on them. Not me.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

That moment when GBR #nevertrump became indistinguishable from liberals.

Not all #nevertrumps say stupid crap like that, but the ones here seem to revel in it.

I'm not a Trumpster, still cannot decided on hwo to proceed in November, but you don't endear me to your cause by saying Trump supporters deserve violence and theft.

So whichever side shuts up first is most likely to get your vote?

Sad to say, but that's probably what happened with me.  Removing myself from the nutbags at TOS actually made me more likely to vote for Trump.  That's really a terrible reason, but I have to admit it probably affected my thinking.