Author Topic: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)  (Read 8372 times)

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HonestJohn

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2016, 01:59:38 am »
Rush was very slow to pick up on this.  Myself and others have been talking about just this for over a month.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2016, 02:41:59 am »
Again, an emotion based opinion wrapped in a fake guise of reason.
You're getting to be a broken record, Johnnie, and it's getting old. Repeating that smear over and over again isn't going to make it true.
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Bill Cipher

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2016, 03:13:42 am »
You're getting to be a broken record, Johnnie, and it's getting old. Repeating that smear over and over again isn't going to make it true.

I agree with you jmyrlefuller

Offline olde north church

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2016, 09:03:40 pm »
They are move in opposite paths on the authoritarian spectrum on the bottom but converge on the libertarian spectrum on the top. As extreme authoritarians move right, they allow for more economic liberty, "as they move left, more personal liberty". But the extreme of authoritarianism is limiting both while the extreme of libertarianism (small l) is maximizing both.

That statement is not correct.  The only personal liberty which increases by a move Left, is the "Right for Abortion.  Smoking, tasty food, sugary  drinks, meat, fast cars, music with warning labels, choice of toilet style, sitting down, recommended sleep hours, choice in medical care, firearms ownership, combustion engine type, fuel type, light bulb choice, acceptable type of worship, caffeine intake, wearing a seatbelt, wearing a helmet, alcohol intake, Pasteurization, and immunization.  That's off the top of my head in two minutes.
There is liberty or there is not.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2016, 09:28:42 pm »

Dr. Milton Friedman argued that Personal freedom and Economic freedom go together.

He was mainly, libertarian.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline alicewonders

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2016, 09:58:58 pm »
That statement is not correct.  The only personal liberty which increases by a move Left, is the "Right for Abortion.  Smoking, tasty food, sugary  drinks, meat, fast cars, music with warning labels, choice of toilet style, sitting down, recommended sleep hours, choice in medical care, firearms ownership, combustion engine type, fuel type, light bulb choice, acceptable type of worship, caffeine intake, wearing a seatbelt, wearing a helmet, alcohol intake, Pasteurization, and immunization.  That's off the top of my head in two minutes.
There is liberty or there is not.

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2016, 10:03:44 pm »
That statement is not correct.  The only personal liberty which increases by a move Left, is the "Right for Abortion.  Smoking, tasty food, sugary  drinks, meat, fast cars, music with warning labels, choice of toilet style, sitting down, recommended sleep hours, choice in medical care, firearms ownership, combustion engine type, fuel type, light bulb choice, acceptable type of worship, caffeine intake, wearing a seatbelt, wearing a helmet, alcohol intake, Pasteurization, and immunization.  That's off the top of my head in two minutes.
There is liberty or there is not.

Well said.  And, as we know in some far left societies the freedom to NOT have an abortion is not even allowed.

Offline ABX

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2016, 10:57:37 pm »
Quote
"The fight on the right isn’t between outsiders and the establishment — the presence of Trump and Sanders prove the absence of an establishment, or at least expose its weakness. Instead, the divide is between two factions of conservatives that emerged in the government shutdown fight over Obamacare in 2013: an American Revolutionary wing of the Tea Party and a French Revolutionary wing of the Tea Party."
...
"Trump is the Napoleon in Cruz’s French Revolution. Both are guilty of doing grievous harm to the conservative movement by fomenting voter anger rather than directing that anger toward achievable policy goals. The difference is, as a RINO, Trump may not know better; Cruz does."

A-Lert

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2016, 11:08:26 pm »
When someone says #NeverTrump, they aren’t siding with the establishment nor are they rooting for a Democrat win. They are fighting against what they see is the continuing of a long march towards tyranny with an ever growing centralized government.

So why hasn't the vaunted GOP done anything but grovel for the last few decades? What has the GOP done to secure the borders, balance the budget, reduce government, reduce the national debt, etc., etc., etc.

HonestJohn

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2016, 11:16:57 pm »
Well said.  And, as we know in some far left societies the freedom to NOT have an abortion is not even allowed.

Very totalitarian leftist societies.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Chairman Mao

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2016, 11:41:43 pm »
Very totalitarian leftist societies.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Chairman Mao

Yep.

Bill Cipher

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2016, 01:30:39 am »
When someone says #NeverTrump, they aren’t siding with the establishment nor are they rooting for a Democrat win. They are fighting against what they see is the continuing of a long march towards tyranny with an ever growing centralized government.

So why hasn't the vaunted GOP done anything but grovel for the last few decades? What has the GOP done to secure the borders, balance the budget, reduce government, reduce the national debt, etc., etc., etc.

When did the GOP have either the White House and a majority in both houses of Congress, or a veto-proof majority in both houses of Congress?  When they didn't, they had to get the democrats to go along, and that requires compromise.

A-Lert

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2016, 01:51:38 am »
When did the GOP have either the White House and a majority in both houses of Congress, or a veto-proof majority in both houses of Congress?  When they didn't, they had to get the democrats to go along, and that requires compromise.

Compromise? That's a laugh. The GOP caves.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2016, 04:27:17 am »
When did the GOP have either the White House and a majority in both houses of Congress, or a veto-proof majority in both houses of Congress?  When they didn't, they had to get the democrats to go along, and that requires compromise.

They had the White House and both houses of Congress for a considerable period during
George W. Bush's presidency. Care to be reminded of the net result, a large part of which
cost the Republicans that Congressional majority in the 2006 elections? I quote:

Quote
Consider the following policy proposals that have been floating around Washington in the months
leading up to the 2006 elections: a) creating a new cabinet-level Department of Families; b) giving every
child $2,000 at birth; c) having the federal government fund 70,000 new math and science teachers; and,
d) requiring every American to purchase health insurance. One might expect that those proposals were
made by liberal Democrats, perhaps Ted Kennedy or Hillary Clinton preparing for their Senate majority.
In fact, every one of them was made by conservative Republicans.

Or consider President George W. Bush. Bush was the first Republican since Eisenhower to run for
president without calling for cutting or abolishing a single government program. Since his election, Bush
has presided over the largest expansion of government spending since Lyndon Johnson initiated the
Great Society. Domestic spending has increased by 27 percent during his presidency. More people
now work for the federal government than at any time since the Cold War. Not a single federal program
has been eliminated.

The expansion of the federal government under the Bush presidency goes far beyond mere dollars,
however. For example, this president has

Quote
* Enacted the largest new entitlement program since the creation of Medicare and Medicaid, an unfunded
Medicare prescription drug benefit that could add as muchas $11.2 trillion to the program's unfunded
liabilities.

* Dramatically increased federal control over local schools while increasing federal education spending by
nearly 61 percent.

* Signed a campaign finance bill that greatly restricts freedom of speech, despite saying he believed it
was unconstitutional.

* Authorised warrantless wiretapping and given vast new powers to law enforcement.

* Federalised airport security and created a new cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security.

* Added roughly 7,000 pages of new federal regulations, bringing the cost of federal regulations to
the economy to more than $1.1 trillion.

* Enacted a $1.5 billion program to promote marriage.

* Proposed a $1.7 billion initiative to develop a hydrogen-powered car.

* Abandoned traditional conservative support for free trade by imposing tariffs and other import
restrictions on steel and lumber.

* Expanded President Clinton's national service program.

* Increased farm subsidies.

* Launched an array of new regulations on corporate governance and accounting.

* Generally done more to centralise government power in the executive branch than any
administration since Richard Nixon.

Individually, the merits of each of these items can be debated. Taken as a whole, they represent an
undeniable shift toward big government. We've come a long way from Ronald Reagan's warning,
"Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem," to George W. Bush
saying, "We have a responsibility that when somebody hurts, government has got to move."

. . . Despite the Bush administration's many flaws, however, placing all the blame for the growth
in government with the president is unfair. On those occasions when the Republicans in Congress
broke with the administration, they never did so to demand less spending or a smaller
government. A Republican-controlled Congress, after all, appropriated $91 billion more for
domestic programs than the president requested during his first term. Indeed, the Republican
addiction to growing government began well before Bush was elected president. When Republicans
took control of Congress in 1994, the federal budget was $1.9 trillion. The Fiscal Year 2006 budget
totaled just over $2.7 trillion . . .

The desire to expand government seems to have infected the Republican Party as a whole. The
Manchester Union Leader describes an editorial board meeting with then-Republican National
Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie:

Quote
The result was a surprisingly frank admission that the Republican Party defines
"fiscal responsibility" as increasing the federal budget "at a slower rate of growth" than the
Democrats (his words). We asked him three times to explain why President Bush and the
Republican Congress have increased discretionary non-defense spending at such an
alarming rate, and why the party has embraced the expansion of the federal government's
roles in education, agriculture, and Great Society-era entitlement programs. "Those
questions have been decided," he said. "The public wants and expanded role in those
areas, and the Republican Party at the highest levels has decided to give the public what
it wants."

It is no wonder that on election night 2006 exit polls showed the voters viewed Republicans
as the party of big government by an 11-point margin. More than 39 percent of voters now
believe that Republicans, not Democrats, are the party of big government. Another 16
percent of voters believe that both Republicans and Democrats support big government.
That's an astounding 55 percent of voters who believe that Republicans are a big-
government party. Even 29percent of Republicans said the Republicans are the "party of
big government," while an additional 17 percent of Republicans said both parties fit
that description.

Of course the Republican Party has always had its moderates or "wets." And many
conservatives have honoured their commitment to limited government more in rhetoric
than in action. Unified government power, with the House, Senate, and presidency all
controlled by the same party, nearly always yields more spending and bigger government
than divided government. But this rejection of the traditional conservative small government
agenda represents something different. The recent drift by Republicans and other conser-
vatives toward big government is not just a result of political pragmatism, addiction to
pork barrel politics, or the desire to curry favour with constituents who appear to demand
government solutions to the problems that affect them. Rather, it represents a slow but
steady change in conservative philosophy, one that rejects a Reaganite skepticism about
government in favour of a belief that big government may not be such a bad thing after
all, if it can be harnessed to conservative ends . . .

To some extent big government conservatives simply style themselves as realists who are
adapting traditional conservative ideals to the public mood. Underlying their approach is
a belief that, in the end, reducing the size of government is impossible. And, if the growth
of government is inevitable, conservatives should stop worrying about the size of
government and simply try to make the best of it. For example, Fred Barnes, executive
editor of The Weekly Standard, who claims credit for coining the term "big govern-
ment conservative," criticises those conservatives who "cling to the hope that some day,
somehow, the federal government will be reduced in size" . . .

This view seems unduly defeatist. Public opinion polls consistently show a majority of
Americans say they would prefer smaller government with fewer services to a larger govern-
ment with more services. Moreover, the political, academic, and media climates are cer-
tainly more hospitable to limited government themes than they were in, say, the late
1970s. That was a time before the advent of conservative talk radio or think tanks. Con-
servative ideas like school choice or individual accounts or Social Security reform were
little more than quaint academic concepts. Yet, that was the period when Ronald Reagan
was able to rise to the presidency. In contrast, big government conservatism appears
to have led Republicans to electoral disaster . . .

Traditional conservatives operated from a position of humility when it came to what govern-
ment could accomplish. They rejected what (F.A.) Hayek called the "fatal conceit" that
government can redesign society according to some sort of rational plan. But big
government conservatives share with contemporary liberals a belief that government
can design policies based on incentives and penalties that will result in people's behaving in
exactly the way policymakers seek. For both liberals and big government conservatives,
government is neither good nor bad. It is simply a tool to be used in the pursuit of
higher goals.

---From Chapter One, "Big Government: It Isn't Just for Liberals Anymore," in:



Remember, Bill---I have no more taste for Donald Trump than you have.

But I have noticed that, here and in other forums I'm sure I have no need to name, there are
those among Mr. Trump's most vociferous and recalcitrant supporters now who were, once upon a time,
among the crowds in those places who were vociferous and recalcitrant supporters of the Bush presidency
and its concurrent Republican Congress no matter how unapologetically those Republican'ts contributed
to the continuing metastasis of big government. And the kind of invective they poured upon anyone standing
athwart that metastasis yelling "Stop!" in those places just might have embarrassed even the eminent
vulgarian Trump himself.

Somehow, they found religion again with the advent of His Excellency Al-Hashish Field Marshmallow
Dr. Barack Obama Dada, COD, RIP, LSMFT, Would-Be Life President of the Republic Formerly Known as
the United States, but that seems to have taken hold most when bleating about the "caving" of the
Republicans on Crapola Hill in the age of Obama.

But when that type of Trumpet blows his or her horn about the uselessness of the Republican Party and its
contribution to the infestation they seek a china shop bull such as Mr. Trump to destroy, they are blowing
about the monster they suckled once upon a time.

Say I: Screw this monkey business about making America "great" again, and get back to the
idea of making America free again.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 04:30:06 am by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2016, 11:29:07 am »
Say I: Screw this monkey business about making America "great" again, and get back to the
idea of making America free again.

The entire thing...   goopo

Offline ABX

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2016, 01:07:21 pm »
Compromise? That's a laugh. The GOP caves.

I think the term is 'Deal'.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2016, 01:48:57 pm »
Again, an emotion based opinion wrapped in a fake guise of reason.

This is the only rebuttal this guy can manage.

Funny because he's the angriest poster here, by far.

Bill Cipher

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2016, 02:11:25 pm »
This is the only rebuttal this guy can manage.

Funny because he's the angriest poster here, by far.

There are others just like him.  Even some who cringe at what comes out of Trump's mouth but still support him because Trump has promised to be their very own thug, I mean fighter. 

Offline 17 Oaks

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2016, 12:05:09 am »
I'm a simple person, so I see this a bit more simply.  I think of it more as a linear continuum, the left being more government: socialism, fascism, communism, (and what democracy devolves into all but a very few, small societies) etc; and on the right less government: republicanism, libertarianism, anarchy.
I am with you, its a linear model and this model may well have been right at sometime in some place but its way off base.


I am Constitutionalist - Capitalist - Conservative


As you go to the left you lose personal freedom and economic freedom viewed from a governmental paradigm


NOTE:  There is only 1 organic economic system and that is capitalism. 
Don:  Got here thru God, Guns and Guts, I speak John Wayne, Johnny Cash and John Deere; this make ME: Christian, Conservative, Capitalist, Constitutionalist...

Offline Bigun

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Re: The Real Battle within the GOP (GOPBR Exclusive)
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2016, 12:29:38 am »
There is only 1 organic economic system and that is capitalism.

 :amen: brother  :amen:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien